Goku was screaming in pain from anyone touching him.
Not at all, firstly PLs were never linear, and they will never be, so the PL multiplier thing proves nothing. If your power increase doesn't compensate for your body mass increase, your speed isn't going to keep up. We've seen this concept with Grade 3 SSJ.
You know what, I'm not going to fight on this point. I'll give you that one.
OP has no evidence of the increase applying on the same rate to speed.
in context, since the prior phrase is "there ain't enough time to focus on making a genki dama" implies that the problem is not that he can't outrun vegeta, but that he doesn't have time to make a genki dama, the statement is not about him being unable to run away, the statement is about how Vegeta is not giving him time to make a genki dama, that is what the "a five times kaioken won't make a difference" is referring to
Suffice it to say, I don't buy that interpretation at all. Especially when in context, Goku's literally talking about how Vegeta's speed is insane despite his size. This falls into that "jumping through hoops to avoid a direct conclusion" thing I was expressing earlier. I just don't think that's a good argument by any stretch
ok, but the statement in Super should suffice as proof then
Saiyan Armor is hyper durable.
You literally said to prove he was incredibly damaged.
Again, not what I’m claiming.
Still not what I’m claiming.
He took a major hit to his energy via the KKx4 KHH and lost tons of energy from the Power Ball, and took visibly large amounts of damage. Thus, overwhelming him in this context is what leads to incredible damage. Accusing me of not reading is laughable when you’re literally not reading what I’m saying (taking into account the multiplier being asserted by the SEG, not taking PLa linearly.)
It raised it to combat the Kaiokenx3 KHH, which is beneath the 32K of the KKx4. And as noted, minor jumps lead to vastly larger outcomes.
No, it doesn’t, because the context is specifically referring to Vegeta’s speed.
I’m talking about the multiplier, specifically, Omega. Such as how the Kaioken raises multiplier and creates PLs that mimic that, or SSJ, or in this case, verbatim stated by the guide we use for all the SSJ forms for Oozaru.
Yes it would. Goku is specifically trying to run away. With a speed advantage that immense, he can move a significant distance that buys him the time he needs. Hell, if anything the Solar Flare proves the point, because the entire reason he says it is Vegeta is so fast he’s able to prevent Goku from running away.
No, it is not.
Your only canon statement is DBS Broly, and it’s incredibly vague. (“Lumbering moves.”) This is in comparison to Oozaru Vegeta moving faster than his base and the SEG, which is why I’m fine with considering this a retcon, but not that with the claim that this is a misinterpretation of the data given.
1) Sure, but it’s still consistent with the fact Oozaru Vegeta is faster than his Base. Especially relative to how he was getting blitzed by KLx3 Goku before.
Sure, I’ll take that Vegeta dominated Kaioken x 2 Goku, but that further substantiates the PL point. And anyway, A speed jump is a speed jump. The number annotated is just the explicit term given (this also wouldn’t be the only time a multiplier given doesn’t quite match up to what we see, most prominently Hit bracing to KKx10 Goku despite explicitly being unable to react to base SSB Kaioken Goku). Especially considering Vegeta was toying with Goku until Goku shot him in the eye, and thus wasn’t capitalizing on his speed increase.
Yes. Literally yes. He is quite literally saying “Man, he’s incredibly fast for his size! Not even a x5 Kaioken would make a difference!” (In what he just attempted, which was running away with the normal Kaioken.)
He’s explicitly attempting to run away for a Spirit Bomb and speaking hypothetically, so this literally doesn’t matter.
Why would he be talking about “beating” Vegeta when he’s remarking on his escape attempt, Vegeta’s speed, and fighting with the knowledge he needs the Spirit Bomb? It literally takes more mental gymnastics to assume that than what we’re literally given.
That, as well as these.
No one is arguing they’re linear. The entire point is that the SEG corroborates the full superhuman statistics amplification, which would include speed. It’s like you all hard focused on the wrong half of the sentence to debate something that ISN’T THERE.
We all collectively agree that Oozaru Vegeta was nerfed far below his peak by the 4x KHH and the Power Ball, meaning so substantially lower than 180,000 that it’s not even FUNNY, and your smoking gun is…that Nerfed Vegeta isn’t displaying stats that’d make sense with the numbers of his peak? It literally proves nothing other than he was weakened.
Thank ya.
If you want to go the angle that DBS retconned Goku's statement, I'd be much more inclined to find that agreeable than what I believe to be mental gymnastics to basically say "Goku saying Kaioken x5 doesn't actually mean Kaioken x5 wouldn't be enough." Yes, I know that's not exactly what's being said, you're taking Goku's statement as meaning something else. But I don't buy that at all. It comes off as actively avoiding the natural conclusion to create a separate one, but that's just my take on the matter.
It's not, Vegeta was already faster than x2 without the form. And Goku was basically numb at this point.
Again, never said you had to agree
We're not, and even if we were, Oozaru > 5x Kaioken > Vegeta > 2x isn't evidence for X10 AT ALL.
.....still don't see how this matters for proving that he
and you answered with "Asserting I need to prove that he took damage is absurd" aka you were implying that i said that he didn't take any damage at all, which is factually not what i said
your entire point is about assuming that 10x power increase is proportional to speed increase, which is you saying that PL's are proportional and linear like that, so yes, it is EXACTLY what you are claiming
prove that last part
you tried to prove that he was overwelmed, i said that he was overwelmed in the post you are answering.....see the problem? besides that, i don't anything showing "clear massive damage" to Vegeta, at least, nothing even near the same level Goku was after 4xKK, like, it isn't even a debate, Goku was far, far worse
considering that the multiplier is talking about PL's in the first place........mn
fair enough
no, in context it is specifically refering to Goku not having time to get away far enough to concentrate on making a Genki Dama, that is the problem, not that he couldn't outspeed vegeta at all, but that he couldn't concentrate on making a genki dama
Kaioken and SSJ have evidence for their mulltipliers applying to speed that are irrelevant for their PL's increasing(Kaioken direct statement, SSJ upscaling from Kaioken and percentages from Freeza)
"Immense"? what "immense" speed difference? the difference from his 4x to 5x is merely of 1,33x, and if you want to argue he can't use 4x for long, the difference between the 3x to 5x is merely 1.66x, what "immense" speed advantage are you talking about? Goku would barely be much faster, even with 3x against Vegeta he wasn't so overwelmenly Faster that Vegeta wouldn't be capable to eventually catching up to him if he stopped runing away(just an example), specially since he wouldn't be able to run away for much long at all considering he nearly broke his body using times 3 and 4, with 5 he probably would run out of juice before covering any distance that would matter
no, Goku says that he is too fast for him to run away AND have time to concentrate on making a Genki Dama, these 2 combined, not just the former on isolation like you are saying it is
considering that what he is verbatim stating is that the problem is about him not having time to make a Genki Dama, i would say that it is what i am saying, a combination of the time he needs to run away, stop, and then make a Genki Dama, since THAT is what he verbatim states, NOT that wouldn't be able to run away at all
yes, it is, you are ignoring the actual problem Goku brings up
as people have brought up "Lumbering" litterally means "to move slowly", so no, it isn't vague AT ALL
does he tho? he is moving faster than an extremely fatigued and weakened Goku(who was in a far worst state than Vegeta), idk where you got that he is moving faster than his base
the SEG never talks about raising speed tho
fair enough, from my perspective, what i am saying is the natural conclusion instead when taking the context into account
Like I said, I'm much more willing to believe DBS simply retconned the DBZ thing because Super is far from immune from doing stupid shit
In both cases, this would be rejected. So you're debating just for the sake of "correcting me" on something I never claimed? Again, proving Oozaru Vegeta is marginally faster than Base Vegeta is not grounds to say Oozaru would be 10x faster exactly. Super didn't retcon anything, the form is slow because it's only slightly faster than base despite the much greater power increase, anyone comparable in power that doesn't have the speed disadvantage would crush an Oozaru. I mean, I proved this using examples from Z, Oozaru Vegeta would have the same power level as Namek Goku using Kaioken, and twice as much as Base Namek Goku. We know they're not comparable in speed.
This further substantiates that your point only provides a 2x increase for speed, in sketchy terms since both of them are severaly injured, and one could argue either is worse than the other, meaning it's not a fair comparison. A speed jump is a speed jump.
To quote myself from 10 seconds ago:
We accept Oozaru as 10x Vegeta in power due to scaling, not because it was stated in the guide, as, again, PL are not linear so the guide itself is meaningless to prove a multiplier in that case.
??? I said Oozaru Vegeta had twice as much power level necessary to blitz everyone.
A Goku who was:
Again, this doesn’t prove anything besides the fact Vegeta was nerfed.
It’s literally already been accepted. This thread is specifically about handling something that’s already been accepted. Saying that it wouldn’t be accepted is literally saying nothing right now, and isn’t a valid way of refuting evidence. The whole point of this conversation is to deliberate something already accepted to see if it needs to be rejected or changed.
The PL Argument is referring to how all stats increase, not linearity. Said this several times. Secondly, the SEG still states that Goku’s full superhuman characteristics improves via Oozaru.
The only value we have available is available is the 10.
This is incorrect. We accept it because of scaling and statements are consistent with each other. This specific reason is also why the SSJ2/3 multipliers weren’t allowed until you literally recently did a thread and showed they are consistent with each other. In this same way, Vegeta’s speed is consistently superior to Kaioken Goku’s, stated to be above a hypothetical x5, is backed up by the SEG, and Vegeta’s own statement of its multiplier. Hell, we accept how Ki amplifies all stats, and we know that, unlike Piccolo, whose giant form only enhances physical mass, the Oozaru enhances Ki.
Oozaru Vegeta was outspeeding Kaioken Goku, and was explicitly toying around with him. Him not abusing his speed when his whole goal is to slowly drag out Goku’s suffering doesn’t prove anything.
Again, literally proves nothing. Vegeta’s energy had weakened twice over before he went Oozaru.
No one said this.
You literally claimed you’re not making this argument earlier, but here you are. There is, in fact, a contradiction based on Z. Also, yes, Goku was weakened, Vegeta was as well, and was holding back. So again, pointing out how Vegeta wasn’t operating at speeds you’d anticipate simply isn’t an argument when we have canon, in story reasons why he couldn’t.
There's still the GT issue, isn't there?
This makes it a whole lot clearer, actually, because the only statement I saw within the film itself was what I screenshotted, which didn’t really convey much more than vague levels of slowness.
That and Tree of Might. The Oozaru form there very clearly enhanced Gohan’s speed.
I can compromise with adding a higher to the speed ratings without a specific multiplier and modifying the note in the verse page.
Works for me. Though, what are your thoughts on the Toei Saiyans? Given GT and ToM?
Not sure yet; I really don't have a lot of interest in the anime but I'll re-read the thread tomorrow.
Fair.
True, but oftentimes it’s explicitly noted, and given that moment in the conversation—While yes, Paragus was implying slowness—(in comparison to Null’s TLs)—We had equally credible showings that the Oozaru simply didn’t fit this category. (That said, Nulls TLs definitely change that.)
It's not. It's an oversight, there is NO THREAD IN THE HISTORY OF THIS FORUM that approved Oozaru being a 10x multipier in speed, there is PAGE where this is reflected. This is NOT accepted dude.
Not quite. If it's on the page, it's assumed to be accepted - and a thread to apply what is currently deemed accepted should not be haphazardly turned into "let's remove this thing to begin with." That requires its own thread
Again, proving it increases speed, but not to the same rate, which would make the form relatively slow for it's power level, which is consistent to what Paragus said
10x Power Level which we don't accept as linear, we have Oozaru as a 10x power multiplier via scaling.
Also because they cited a power increase, not a Battle Power increase.
His power level had to be higher than 40,000 because he was stronger than Kaioken x5 Goku, we know that much for sure, if his speed was proportional, he would be able to blitz Kaioken x2/x3 Goku. While he is faster than Kaioken Goku, saying he is in blitzing range like someone else in that range of power level is false.
Fair. But you shouldn't say, "Even weakened, Oozaru Vegeta is faster than Kaioken x5 Goku, which means the multiplier is likely higher", when Goku's also weakened, which would even it out.
Prove it.
