Beyonders downgrade

[Gasper]

Is "Massively FTL+ travel speed, Immeasurable combat speed" a possibility?

I mean, they pretty certainly scale to Living Tribunal since they beat him, but they are also certainly temporally linear. Or maybe Massively FTL+ with a note about how they can fight Immeasurable speed characters but aren't immeasurable themselves.

The problem is that non of the cosmic beings have any immeasurable speed feats or statments.
I think living tribunal's immeasurable speed comes from him "transending time and space" which you know...

 

[Vasco]

Transcending space and time according to speed page can mean many things that's why i'm skeptical on it.

 

[Gasper]

Transcending space and time according to speed page can mean many things that's why i'm skeptical on it.

Me too

 

[ObberGobb]

I can't comment on that, because that part of the tiering system goes way over my head and is confusing to me. I can only comment on how the Beyonders scale. I think they definitely need to scale to Living Tribunal in speed because they did beat him, but I don't know how to do that with this wiki's tiering system considering they are pretty blatantly temporally linear.

 

[Vasco]

Yeah, i also proposed they can scale to living tribunal for now, if his immeasurable gets downgraded in the future then Massively FTL+ likely higher would suffice.

 

[Gasper]

Technically there are some characters in marvel who have immensurable speed like thor or silver surfer but they don't use it in a fight much so i am not sure if beyonders can scale to that. But even then, thor needs time to travel back in time with his speed.

 

[Vasco]

But even then, thor needs time to travel back in time with his speed.

Still immeasurable though.

Technically there are some characters in marvel who have immensurable speed like thor or silver surfer but they don't use it in a fight much so i am not sure if beyonders can scale to that. But even then, thor needs time to travel back in time with his speed.

This would literally make sense to make the beyonders to scale above them with a possibly immeasurable.

 

[Eficiente]

idk on the large size part, but we already have a note on the speed

Similarly, also for a lack of better options, we treat their statement as being "Temporally linear" as a contradictory Outlier. As in Marvel, even universal abstracts display transcendence over linear time, and it makes no logical sense for beings who exist outside the entire multiverse and who killed The Living Tribunal to be temporally linear.

This is old, from back where "exists outside of" meant something it didn't.
---
Given how The Living Tribunal and other abstracts have been portrayed with lower speeds than Immeasurable many times, it stands to reason that this is an outlier for them, and that the Beyonders do not in fact have Immeasurable speed. The Beyonders were made as characters without Immeasurable speed as they interacted with characters portrayed w/o Immeasurable speed too, the former is everything the Beyonders have, the latter isn't necessarily something that downgrades the abstracts.

 

[Thelastmlg]

No they don't. Dosen't matter if they killed eternity, that Dosen't give them immesurable speed, even more so when you realize eternity is omnipresent.

Because it dosen't really matter. He'll comment here when he's got time.

Stop including non-marvel stuff here, i don't give a single shit how pokemon fans treat they're verse.

Omnipresence across time > immensurable speed, besides scaling to the tribunal that still got the immensurable rating.

It does because you claimed you had a talk to him, before he actually commented here your word wouldn't matter without showing said talk.

Is called double standards, is not just for pokemon, if we treat a major plot point as PIS for a verse, we are gonna do so for another

 

[Thelastmlg]

This is old, from back where "exists outside of" meant something it didn't.
---
Given how The Living Tribunal and other abstracts have been portrayed with lower speeds than Immeasurable many times, it stands to reason that this is an outlier for them, and that the Beyonders do not in fact have Immeasurable speed. The Beyonders were made as characters without Immeasurable speed as they interacted with characters portrayed w/o Immeasurable speed too, the former is everything the Beyonders have, the latter isn't necessarily something that downgrades the abstracts.

I don't get the last line you said "the former is everything they have, the latter is not necessarily something that downgrades the abstracts", how does it not downgrade the abstracts if they supposedely had immensurable speed until now, according to that note in the beyonders page?

 

[Thelastmlg]

Transcending space and time according to speed page can mean many things that's why i'm skeptical on it.

Just to be clear, transcending space and time CAN give immensurable speed with context, in tribunal's case, he can move in stopped time accoridng to it, hinting on it being related to speed.

But uh, looking back, this feels more like a resistance to time and space manipulation, at best it would give infinite speed but IIRC we stopped giving characters who can move in stopped time speeds and stuff unless they are explicilty infinite in context

 

[Vasco]

Omnipresence across time > immensurable speed, besides scaling to the tribunal that still got the immensurable rating.

It does because you claimed you had a talk to him, before he actually commented here your word wouldn't matter without showing said talk.

Is called double standards, is not just for pokemon, if we treat a major plot point as PIS for a verse, we are gonna do so for another

One is just a state of being.

@Antvasima agreed in the Marvel discussion thread and proposed Massively FTL+ possibly higher.

The beyonders are not immeasurable since they don't have such feats and scaling to living tribunal who's stated to transend space and time(even this isn't really always speed according to the Speed page).

Just to be clear, transcending space and time CAN give immensurable speed with context, in tribunal's case, he can move in stopped time accoridng to it, hinting on it being related to speed.

But uh, looking back, this feels more like a resistance to time and space manipulation, at best it would give infinite speed but IIRC we stopped giving characters who can move in stopped time speeds and stuff unless they are explicilty infinite in context

That's just resistance to time stop or infinite speed.

Agree with you.

 

[Gasper]

Omnipresence across time > immensurable speed, besides scaling to the tribunal that still got the immensurable rating.

It does because you claimed you had a talk to him, before he actually commented here your word wouldn't matter without showing said talk.

Is called double standards, is not just for pokemon, if we treat a major plot point as PIS for a verse, we are gonna do so for another

No, omnipresence isn't speed rating but ability. Living Tribunal's immensurable speed also dosen't have justifications so it dosen't matter.

Useless to the conversation.

Again, nothing that actually matters.

 

[Vasco]

It does because you claimed you had a talk to him, before he actually commented here your word wouldn't matter without showing said talk.

He wasn't lying when he said he discussed it with Antvasima.

 

[Eficiente]

Omnipresence across time > immensurable speed

No, this is wrong. No form of Omnipresence is any speed at all, legit you could be Subsonic and have any of them.

This is somewhat not your fault though, our Speed page is kinda trash.

I don't get the last line you said "the former is everything they have, the latter is not necessarily something that downgrades the abstracts", how does it not downgrade the abstracts if they supposedely had immensurable speed until now, according to that note in the beyonders page?

Think of it like this; Characters A have 30 displays, 5 or even 10 of them are at a limited speed, some others imply Immensurable speed with the rest not contradicting that. Character B has 5 displays, 2 of them are along characters A displaying a limited speed. The first step is to recognize the cases in which characters A showed having a limited speed, we may later judge they lack Immensurable in general after further evaluations, or not. You act like the way to do things is that they have to be downgraded or nothing else happens, which is not a thing, powerful characters can be inconsistent to a point where other characters scaling isn't an outlier for them but a low display for the powerful characters.

Just to be clear, transcending space and time CAN give immensurable speed with context, in tribunal's case, he can move in stopped time accoridng to it, hinting on it being related to speed.

But uh, looking back, this feels more like a resistance to time and space manipulation, at best it would give infinite speed but IIRC we stopped giving characters who can move in stopped time speeds and stuff unless they are explicilty infinite in context

Yeah, it's just a Resistance to Time Manip. I added the feat at a time we were kinda dumb about Immensurable speed. (Btw, we still are, just wait for it and you will see.)

 

[Reiner04]

What are the staff consensus here?

 

[Antvasima]

The problem is that non of the cosmic beings have any immeasurable speed feats or statments.
I think living tribunal's immeasurable speed comes from him "transending time and space" which you know...

I agree with that all of the cosmic entities likely should be downgraded to Massively FTL+ in lack of better options, due to how they have been consistently handled during storylines.

What do you think that we should do, @Eficiente ?

 

[Eficiente]

If they lack feats on that level, yes.

If they do have other feats, then they need further evaluation.

 

[Gasper]

Technically there are some characters in marvel who have immensurable speed like thor or silver surfer but they don't use it in a fight much so i am not sure if beyonders can scale to that. But even then, thor needs time to travel back in time with his speed.

This is the only thing going for them.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with that all of the cosmic entities likely should be downgraded to Massively FTL+ in lack of better options, due to how they have been consistently handled during storylines.

What do you think that we should do, @Eficiente ?

If they lack feats on that level, yes.

If they do have other feats, then they need further evaluation.

I do not remember any of them displaying immeasurable speed during any of their clnfrontations or interations with other characters at least.

@Qawsedf234 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @Ehnkr2beboh @Elizio33 @MarvelFanatic119 @catzlaflame @Lightning_XXI @Deagonx @Vasco @Eseseso @MARVEL_Future_Fight_Gamer @LuciferX @Excel616 @DarkDragonMedeus @Sandman31

What do you think?

 

[Eseseso]

If they lack feats on that level, yes.

If they do have other feats, then they need further evaluation.

Basically this.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[Firestorm808]

I have no issues off the top of my head with the downgrade unless we have new scans to support them.

 

[Excellence616]

No, issues with the downgrade

 

[Elizio33]

I have no issues with the downgrade.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

If a downgrade of the speed levels of the Marvel Comics cosmic entities is accepted, would somebody here be willing and able to properly apply it please?

I can create a list of all of the VSBW Marvel Comics character pages that are tier 1 to help you out with finding the pages that need to be revised.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think the downgrade is fine.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

I think the downgrade is fine.

double posting

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Glitches like that happen all the time.

 

[Comicgyal]

So from what I understand, this was originally a Beyonders speed downgrade, but it changed to where the Beyonders get to keep their immeasurable, while other abstracts (who scale above them) somehow lose it?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Jesus, you all're quick on the trigger.

Anyway, I don't have much of an issue with the Beyonders being downgraded from Immeasurable, given how odd their relationship with linearity is. Although I'll say I think Infinite is a more acceptable rating for them than MFTL+ is. The trio of Beyonders that killed the Living Tribunal also killed an infinite number of Celestials across all realities, for instance, and in the same issue (New Avengers Vol. 3 #30) Henry Pym states that they're not constrained by space. In Captain America and the Mighty Avengers #6, they're also stated to be beyond the temporal structure of the universe, and in Defenders: Beyond, their realm is explicitly above time and space, and has no distance or duration.

Going by Al Ewing's recent stuff, it seems like the Beyonders are outside of time in the omniversal sense but still bound by their own, higher notion of linearity. His run of Defenders (Volume 6) for example has Doctor Strange and a couple other people travel to past omniverses, and it's referred to as being time travel, even though the same comic defines each previous multiverse as predating the time of the multiverse that comes after it (They're each called the "time-before-time" or the "before-time"), and another comic by him has Loki state that the void left in the wake of the Seventh Multiverse's end has no time to travel back in.

 

[Transcending]

I agree with Ultima

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

I agree with Ultima too

 

[Vasco]

Anyway, I don't have much of an issue with the Beyonders being downgraded from Immeasurable, given how odd their relationship with linearity is. Although I'll say I think Infinite is a more acceptable rating for them than MFTL+ is. The trio of Beyonders that killed the Living Tribunal also killed an infinite number of Celestials across all realities, for instance, and in the same issue (New Avengers Vol. 3 #30) Henry Pym states that they're not constrained by space. In Captain America and the Mighty Avengers #6, they're also stated to be beyond the temporal structure of the universe, and in Defenders: Beyond, their realm is explicitly above time and space, and has no distance or duration.

I know you're one of the most knowledgeable members in this forum but is killing an infinite number or beings considered infinite speed?
it's my first time seeing such so i just have to ask, some scans are also kinda iffy for infinite speed ngl.

Going by Al Ewing's recent stuff, it seems like the Beyonders are outside of time in the omniversal sense but still bound by their own, higher notion of linearity. His run of Defenders (Volume 6) for example has Doctor Strange and a couple other people travel to past omniverses, and it's referred to as being time travel, even though the same comic defines each previous multiverse as predating the time of the multiverse that comes after it (They're each called the "time-before-time" or the "before-time"), and another comic by him has Loki state that the void left in the wake of the Seventh Multiverse's end has no time to travel back in.

I personally fail to see how this has anything to do with the infinite speed proposal you're pushing for the beyonders.

Anyways, if we have statement of the reality being infinite during the event, can't we just use it as a justification to make the beyonders gain infinite speed?

 

[Gasper]

So from what I understand, this was originally a Beyonders speed downgrade, but it changed to where the Beyonders get to keep their immeasurable, while other abstracts (who scale above them) somehow lose it?

What? No. No Abstract entity has immeasurable speed justification at all.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I know you're one of the most knowledgeable members in this forum but is killing an infinite number or beings considered infinite speed?
it's my first time seeing such so i just have to ask, some scans are also kinda iffy for infinite speed ngl.

The comic itself portrays the event as having been the Beyonders killing a bunch of Celestials ganging up on them over a period of time, so I would say so, yes. If they just unleashed an omnidirectional blast that swallowed them all, or something, it wouldn't be Infinite speed, though. The statement saying they are not constrained by space is also supposed to lend into that.

I personally fail to see how this has anything to do with the infinite speed proposal you're pushing for the beyonders.

The posts above me seem to be expounding the idea that the Beyonders aren't even above the traditional time of one spacetime continuum, hence them becoming MFTL+ at all. Those scans are to provide evidence against that: They do, in fact, transcend time. They're just bound by their own higher form of it.

 

[Vasco]

The comic itself portrays the event as having been the Beyonders killing a bunch of Celestials ganging up on them over a period of time, so I would say so, yes

Never knew killing infinite number of beings grants infinite speed, I personally don't see it as speed but okay.

The posts above me seem to be expounding the idea that the Beyonders aren't even above the traditional time of one spacetime continuum, hence them becoming MFTL+ at all. Those scans are to provide evidence against that: They do, in fact, transcend time. They're just bound by their own higher form of it.

Makes sense.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Never knew killing infinite number of beings grants infinite speed, I personally don't see it as speed but okay.

It really just boils down to them doing something infinite in a finite amount of time. I welcome other opinions on it, but I'd say that does qualify for Infinite speed.

 

[Gasper]

Interestingly they also fought living tribunal on infinite planes of reality, so i'm not 100% sure if they actually have this amount of speed or is this just their state of being.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Interestingly they also fought living tribunal on infinite planes of reality, so i'm not 100% sure if they actually have this amount of speed or is this just their state of being.

That's a good point. Defenders: Beyond does show America Chavez punching across multiple planes of reality as soon as she mimicks their nature. So, could be just something they naturally do as well.