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The problem is that non of the cosmic beings have any immeasurable speed feats or statments.
I think living tribunal's immeasurable speed comes from him "transending time and space" which you know...
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Beyonders downgrade
- Thread starter Gasper
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I think living tribunal's immeasurable speed comes from him "transending time and space" which you know...
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- #43
Me too
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I can't comment on that, because that part of the tiering system goes way over my head and is confusing to me. I can only comment on how the Beyonders scale. I think they definitely need to scale to Living Tribunal in speed because they did beat him, but I don't know how to do that with this wiki's tiering system considering they are pretty blatantly temporally linear.
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Still immeasurable though.
This would literally make sense to make the beyonders to scale above them with a possibly immeasurable.
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This is old, from back where "exists outside of" meant something it didn't.
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Given how The Living Tribunal and other abstracts have been portrayed with lower speeds than Immeasurable many times, it stands to reason that this is an outlier for them, and that the Beyonders do not in fact have Immeasurable speed. The Beyonders were made as characters without Immeasurable speed as they interacted with characters portrayed w/o Immeasurable speed too, the former is everything the Beyonders have, the latter isn't necessarily something that downgrades the abstracts.
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Omnipresence across time > immensurable speed, besides scaling to the tribunal that still got the immensurable rating.
It does because you claimed you had a talk to him, before he actually commented here your word wouldn't matter without showing said talk.
Is called double standards, is not just for pokemon, if we treat a major plot point as PIS for a verse, we are gonna do so for another
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I don't get the last line you said "the former is everything they have, the latter is not necessarily something that downgrades the abstracts", how does it not downgrade the abstracts if they supposedely had immensurable speed until now, according to that note in the beyonders page?
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Just to be clear, transcending space and time CAN give immensurable speed with context, in tribunal's case, he can move in stopped time accoridng to it, hinting on it being related to speed.
But uh, looking back, this feels more like a resistance to time and space manipulation, at best it would give infinite speed but IIRC we stopped giving characters who can move in stopped time speeds and stuff unless they are explicilty infinite in context
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One is just a state of being.
@Antvasima agreed in the Marvel discussion thread and proposed Massively FTL+ possibly higher.
The beyonders are not immeasurable since they don't have such feats and scaling to living tribunal who's stated to transend space and time(even this isn't really always speed according to the Speed page).
That's just resistance to time stop or infinite speed.
Agree with you.
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No, omnipresence isn't speed rating but ability. Living Tribunal's immensurable speed also dosen't have justifications so it dosen't matter.
Useless to the conversation.
Again, nothing that actually matters.
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No, this is wrong. No form of Omnipresence is any speed at all, legit you could be Subsonic and have any of them.
This is somewhat not your fault though, our Speed page is kinda trash.
Think of it like this; Characters A have 30 displays, 5 or even 10 of them are at a limited speed, some others imply Immensurable speed with the rest not contradicting that. Character B has 5 displays, 2 of them are along characters A displaying a limited speed. The first step is to recognize the cases in which characters A showed having a limited speed, we may later judge they lack Immensurable in general after further evaluations, or not. You act like the way to do things is that they have to be downgraded or nothing else happens, which is not a thing, powerful characters can be inconsistent to a point where other characters scaling isn't an outlier for them but a low display for the powerful characters.
Yeah, it's just a Resistance to Time Manip. I added the feat at a time we were kinda dumb about Immensurable speed. (Btw, we still are, just wait for it and you will see.)
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I agree with that all of the cosmic entities likely should be downgraded to Massively FTL+ in lack of better options, due to how they have been consistently handled during storylines.
What do you think that we should do, @Eficiente ?
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This is the only thing going for them.
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I do not remember any of them displaying immeasurable speed during any of their clnfrontations or interations with other characters at least.
@Qawsedf234 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @Ehnkr2beboh @Elizio33 @MarvelFanatic119 @catzlaflame @Lightning_XXI @Deagonx @Vasco @Eseseso @MARVEL_Future_Fight_Gamer @LuciferX @Excel616 @DarkDragonMedeus @Sandman31
What do you think?
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Basically this.
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I have no issues off the top of my head with the downgrade unless we have new scans to support them.
Excellence616
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No, issues with the downgrade
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Thank you for helping out. 
If a downgrade of the speed levels of the Marvel Comics cosmic entities is accepted, would somebody here be willing and able to properly apply it please?
I can create a list of all of the VSBW Marvel Comics character pages that are tier 1 to help you out with finding the pages that need to be revised.
If a downgrade of the speed levels of the Marvel Comics cosmic entities is accepted, would somebody here be willing and able to properly apply it please?
I can create a list of all of the VSBW Marvel Comics character pages that are tier 1 to help you out with finding the pages that need to be revised.
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I think the downgrade is fine.
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double posting
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Glitches like that happen all the time.
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Jesus, you all're quick on the trigger.
Anyway, I don't have much of an issue with the Beyonders being downgraded from Immeasurable, given how odd their relationship with linearity is. Although I'll say I think Infinite is a more acceptable rating for them than MFTL+ is. The trio of Beyonders that killed the Living Tribunal also killed an infinite number of Celestials across all realities, for instance, and in the same issue (New Avengers Vol. 3 #30) Henry Pym states that they're not constrained by space. In Captain America and the Mighty Avengers #6, they're also stated to be beyond the temporal structure of the universe, and in Defenders: Beyond, their realm is explicitly above time and space, and has no distance or duration.
Going by Al Ewing's recent stuff, it seems like the Beyonders are outside of time in the omniversal sense but still bound by their own, higher notion of linearity. His run of Defenders (Volume 6) for example has Doctor Strange and a couple other people travel to past omniverses, and it's referred to as being time travel, even though the same comic defines each previous multiverse as predating the time of the multiverse that comes after it (They're each called the "time-before-time" or the "before-time"), and another comic by him has Loki state that the void left in the wake of the Seventh Multiverse's end has no time to travel back in.
Anyway, I don't have much of an issue with the Beyonders being downgraded from Immeasurable, given how odd their relationship with linearity is. Although I'll say I think Infinite is a more acceptable rating for them than MFTL+ is. The trio of Beyonders that killed the Living Tribunal also killed an infinite number of Celestials across all realities, for instance, and in the same issue (New Avengers Vol. 3 #30) Henry Pym states that they're not constrained by space. In Captain America and the Mighty Avengers #6, they're also stated to be beyond the temporal structure of the universe, and in Defenders: Beyond, their realm is explicitly above time and space, and has no distance or duration.
Going by Al Ewing's recent stuff, it seems like the Beyonders are outside of time in the omniversal sense but still bound by their own, higher notion of linearity. His run of Defenders (Volume 6) for example has Doctor Strange and a couple other people travel to past omniverses, and it's referred to as being time travel, even though the same comic defines each previous multiverse as predating the time of the multiverse that comes after it (They're each called the "time-before-time" or the "before-time"), and another comic by him has Loki state that the void left in the wake of the Seventh Multiverse's end has no time to travel back in.
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Transcending
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I agree with Ultima
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I agree with Ultima too
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I know you're one of the most knowledgeable members in this forum but is killing an infinite number or beings considered infinite speed?
it's my first time seeing such so i just have to ask, some scans are also kinda iffy for infinite speed ngl.
I personally fail to see how this has anything to do with the infinite speed proposal you're pushing for the beyonders.
Anyways, if we have statement of the reality being infinite during the event, can't we just use it as a justification to make the beyonders gain infinite speed?
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What? No. No Abstract entity has immeasurable speed justification at all.
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The comic itself portrays the event as having been the Beyonders killing a bunch of Celestials ganging up on them over a period of time, so I would say so, yes. If they just unleashed an omnidirectional blast that swallowed them all, or something, it wouldn't be Infinite speed, though. The statement saying they are not constrained by space is also supposed to lend into that.
The posts above me seem to be expounding the idea that the Beyonders aren't even above the traditional time of one spacetime continuum, hence them becoming MFTL+ at all. Those scans are to provide evidence against that: They do, in fact, transcend time. They're just bound by their own higher form of it.
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Never knew killing infinite number of beings grants infinite speed, I personally don't see it as speed but okay.
Makes sense.
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It really just boils down to them doing something infinite in a finite amount of time. I welcome other opinions on it, but I'd say that does qualify for Infinite speed.
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That's a good point. Defenders: Beyond does show America Chavez punching across multiple planes of reality as soon as she mimicks their nature. So, could be just something they naturally do as well.
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