Beyond the Grave vs Adam Jensen

[AnAverageUsername]

RULES​

• Speed is equalized​
• Jensen's laser Cannon is restricted​
• Grave scales to [0.058 Tons]​
• Jensen scales to [0.228 Tons]​
• Battle takes place in an open graveyard​

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CHARACTERS
Beyond the Grave

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"My name is Brandon Heat.": 1 (AnAverageUsername)

Adam Jensen

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"I never asked for this.": 1 (Not_Icarus)

 

[Not_Icarus]

Honestly I don't see how Adam isn't taking this by just spamming explosions at him or just completely vaporizing him with the plasma rifle.

Adam can both dodge and tank his attacks too via his natural stats, speed and durability boosts as well.

I vote Adam nevertheless.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Honestly I don't see how Adam isn't taking this by just spamming explosions at him or just completely vaporizing him with the plasma rifle.

Adam can both dodge and tank his attacks too via his natural stats, speed and durability boosts as well.

Yeah, just going to say it, Grave's profile is bad. I've had to scavenge the arguments GinSama had left behind and use then for my own before he got put on ice, so here's a comprehensive list of what grave can do, copy and pasted from another match.

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Skill

So first up, Grave has some bonkers skill. At the very least, Grave (or Brandon Heat, his living name) scales above Eye of Michael members at the very least. These members are able to predict everything about the person, ranging from their skills, moves, habits, and more. Further, these members can even fight against Vash the Stampede himself, though not for long. Grave can even scale to higher end Eye of Michael members such as Wolfwood and Livio, with Livio here being important. Livio has "2 layers" (dont know how that works) of analytical prediction, and after controlling Razlo his secondary personality he was able to keep up with an opponent vastly faster that has their own speed amps, who has a passive that can only be described as "an anti-skill aura", and Livio still beat this person with skill, which is what Gin was trying to get across, I think.

Grave's own gunplay shouldn't be scoffed at either. In his earlier days as a sweeper for Millenion, Grave was shown to be able to casually pick up a sniper rifle, before CASUALLY just picking out a spot to shoot at and pulling the trigger. This spot was where the target was somehow. This is even more impressive, because the target was behind a curtain obscuring who they could even be, from multiple building lengths away, all without even the slightest hint of prior knowledge because he just entered the sniper room where Bunji was and just knew instantly where the target was. Also going back to his younger days in Millenion, even when he was going up against Blood War and forced to fight off multiple immortal Deadmen, Brandon was able to stall off these Deadmen while barely getting hit throughout while constantly damaging himself while using a hand-canon of a gun, enough so that more Millenion members arrived. Not to mention in the games, Grave has fought more Deadmen such as a revived Bunji, Sherry Walken-MacDowell, and the terrifying Fangoram. And while not on the level of these 3 nor a Deadman himself, Zell Condorbrave is an equally impressive opponent, being a mercenary commander and having his squad hired by Corision to hold off Grave because of his skills in taking down Deadmen.

And now that I'm finished with this, I should mention that Grave likely won't hold back in the slightest as Mika isn't here.

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Attacks and Powers


Here's the meat and potatoes of the skill section wasn't already that part. Starting off, Grave already has a large arsenal of weapons, most of them stored in the Death Hauler. There's the Ceberus handguns, Grave wielding the left and right heads. And with the Death Hauler, it contains a myriad of weapons, such as a gatling gun, multiple types of rockets that can home in, and what appears to be A DAMN RAILGUN. Grave has a good regeneration factor as well, being able to soak up bullets on the daily and regenerate nigh instantly. Now, the best part of his attacks are his demolition shots, his most powerful attacks which don't seem to have a limit on how much they can be used. You see that perception manipulation part on Grave's profile? Yeah, that's gonna play a huge part here. Anytime Grave uses a DS, it will kick in, which basically slows down time to anyone around to a near halt while Grave sends out an absurd amount of attacks. This is applied further with the Dawn of the Grave DS line, where Grave goes under the same time slow effect, but he moves around during it. It might look like he's effected slightly during this as well during game play videos, but I'm pretty sure that's just the PS2 breaking down lmao.



(Ignore Bunji there)

(watch till 2:25)



As you can see in the first video, Grave isn't afraid to spam these Demolition Shots one after the other. Resulting in an Overkill Execution.

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Yeah, tons of text. TLDR; Grave's demolition shots can slow down his perception time to the point where enemies around him are at a near standstill, and overpowers other slowing effects that put him to a near standstill. He had some crazy skill, and his coffin is jam packed with multiple weapons that can shred the area down, such as the aforementioned missiles that home in and semi-automatic. He also has a decent scaling chain by the end of Gungrave Overdose, this is it here made by myself since Gin is gone.

Pissed Off Grave > God Garino > Fangoram and the Center Head >= Post chapter 6 Grave (Not One shot by Fangoram) > Deadman Bunji Kugashira = Deadman Sherry Walken-McDowel > Pre Chapter 6 Grave (One shot by Fangoram) > Merged Millenion big 3 (Bob Poundmax, Ballabird Lee, Bear Walken) > Superiorized Bunji Kugashira > Second form Bear Walken > First form Bear Walken > casual transformation > 9-A feat

 

[Not_Icarus]

Jensen's speed boost also makes people around him look like statues so speed should be pretty even ngl. He also has the better mobility via combining that with dashes. AP seems less stompy now so even enough on that department too. There's so much missing stuff on Grave's profile that I'll honestly just stick with Adam right now considering I still see him capable of edging out a win here despite the seemingly inferior skill via also just trading damage with him given his better durability, mobility and variety of powers such as stuns, vaporization and duraneg.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Jensen's speed boost also makes me around him look like statues so speed should be pretty even ngl.

Yeah but the thing is, Grave's works to the point where it overrides himself slowed to the point of a statue to where he basically statues others. And it's time length can go on for a while, with its maximum output at "Dawn of the Grave", not to mention this also applies to when he uses any other demolition shots

He also has the better mobility via combining that with dashes.

I can give that. Grave is the clunky one between Juji and Rocketbilly Redcadillac

AP seems less stompy now so even enough on that department too.

Yeah, it should probably be explained on the profile but, the profile is oooold

There's so much missing stuff on Grave's profile that I'll honestly just stick with Adam right now considering I still see him capable of edging out a win here despite the seemingly inferior skill via also just trading damage with him given his better durability, mobility and variety of powers such as stuns, vaporization and duraneg.

Well Grave should be able to dodge these? That's one of the things his game is about, hordes of enemies that should be dodged. Grave can also heal himself, don't know why that's missing it was a feature in the first game, but he also had regen, working to the point where he can eventually get up through sheer willpower after having his blood blasted out of his body, the stuff he lives on. But this happened over the span of an unknown amount of time so eh. I also think grave has the better arsenal of weaponry, and the combined usage of them with demolition shots.

But counted.

 

[Not_Icarus]

Does this apply to Grave

It seems like this match up can't be added if he's winning by speed with his perception boost and if he doesn't have any other way to win

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Does this apply to Grave

It seems like this match up can't be added if he's winning by speed with his perception boost and if he doesn't have any other way to win

Oh he has other ways to wind, the perception/speed/whatever boost is just an effect on all of his regular demolition shots. He still has his guns and his skill, as well as his ability to regenerate soaking up bullets.

 

[Not_Icarus]

So does his speed boost stay or get out from the fight?

 

[AnAverageUsername]

So does his speed boost stay or get out from the fight?

What do you mean by this?

 

[Not_Icarus]

The rules say a slower character can't win officially if they win with their own speed boosts against a naturally faster character. So I'm wondering if his speed boost is basically null now because of that rule

 

[Not_Icarus]

It might be the case that the slower character is equalized to the faster character or vice versa but the faster character gets to keep their own boosts

 

[AnAverageUsername]

The rules say a slower character can't win officially if they win with their own speed boosts against a naturally faster character. So I'm wondering if his speed boost is basically null now because of that rule

It might be the case that the slower character is equalized to the faster character or vice versa but the faster character gets to keep their own boosts

Well for one Grave isn't slower since speed is equalized. 2, they both have speed boosts and Grave has a multitude of other demolition shots that aren't extended speed boosts, only that they let him pull of these fancy tricks in one go.

 

[Not_Icarus]

Grave is slower, speed is just equalized. The case is that slower characters in speed equalized matches can't be faster with boosts as it's seen as cheating for a normally faster character to get outsped by a slower character. I don't think you can outspeed an immeasurable Flash tbh just because you bring him down to ftl only or something via speed equalized and then blitz him with like a 100x speed boost.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Grave is slower, speed is just equalized. The case is that slower characters in speed equalized matches can't be faster with boosts as it's seen as cheating for a normally faster character to get outsped by a slower character. I don't think you can outspeed an immeasurable Flash tbh just because you bring him down to ftl only or something via speed equalized and then blitz him with like a 100x speed boost.

Oh yeah that makes sense, but like you said Jensen has his own speed boost+weaponry. Grave even with his scaling chain isn't going to be doing a lot of damage, that's going to be reliant overtime, where Jensen has a lot of ways to take out Grave as well, just as how Grave has ways to take out Jensen.

 

[Not_Icarus]

I guess Jensen has the speed advantage then via his boosts

 

[Not_Icarus]

It'd be fine though if Grave outspeeds via time manipulation (if he has that) even if he's slower since it's a power and not a standard stat

 

[AnAverageUsername]

It'd be fine though if Grave outspeeds via time manipulation (if he has that) even if he's slower since it's a power and not a standard stat

I mean it should be time manipulation, as it's directly said that in the game manual, but it's listed as perception manipulation

 

[Not_Icarus]

That'd probably be good to confirm on his profile although I'm not sure if time manipulation speed amps are fine via making yourself faster even though you're naturally way slower. Normally from what I heard is that time slow and time stop are clear ways of getting the edge over faster characters in speed equalized matches. Someone like Pucci is fair game though even if he's slower I think given his infinitely expanding speed. He wouldn't be faster than someone immeasurable though considering his max speed is just infinite.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

That'd probably be good to confirm on his profile although I'm not sure if time manipulation speed amps are fine via making yourself faster even though you're naturally way slower. Normally from what I heard is that time slow and time stop are clear ways of getting the edge over faster characters in speed equalized matches. Someone like Pucci is fair game though even if he's slower I think given his infinitely expanding speed. He wouldn't be faster than someone immeasurable though considering his max speed is just immeasurable.

Yeah, the manual lists it as a "time slow" attack

 

[Not_Icarus]

Does it mean slowing down the world around Grave or specifically making enemies slower via time manipulation? If it's the latter then Grave has the chance to make the speed difference more fair here.

 

[Not_Icarus]

Oh nvm slowing down the world works my bad lol

 

[Not_Icarus]

I'm curious if Adam's boosts would let him move just normally when he gets hit by time slow given the speeds equalized match.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

I'm curious if Adam's boosts would let him move just normally when he gets hit by time slow given the speeds equalized match.

I mean it should work. God Garino, the final boss of Overdose, can slow down time as well yet that can be countered by Grave slowing down time as well. It's funky I know. I'll just post a video.

(1:00:05 seconds in)

 

[Not_Icarus]

Seems like the speeds outside of mobility are evened out now then

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Seems like the speeds outside of mobility are evened out now then

So it comes down to skill and weaponry? Which I still say Grave takes. What, with all those demolition shots he has, which he can indeed string together.

 

[Not_Icarus]

You can still put in your own vote right now for Grave. I'm still fine with my Adam vote.

Adam to me just has easier ways of winning given his more varied and useful arsenal like tracking bullets and stun mini drones (he can't dodge these forever) that'll be horrible for Grave as it'll leave him open for Adam to just slice off his head either from range or melee

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Well I should probably reiterate Grave's wincons as well

I just see him winning with his stamina as a Deadman (that can last him a few days I'm pretty sure), his weaponry including homing rockets and basically a railgun in his death hauler, his pure skill, and his demolition shots

 

[Not_Icarus]

A slugfest of durability vs endurance

Both have good pain tolerance too

 

[AnAverageUsername]

A slugfest of durability vs endurance

Both have good pain tolerance too

Yup, a good fight