Ben 10 Speed Revision

[Greenshifter]

According to Kevin in Ultimate Aggregor, Tachyon Cannons leave radiation scoring on leftover debris.

Sounds like tachyon radiation to me then.

Regarding NRG, how do carbon rods dismiss gamma radiation being created?

Ehm it doesn’t necessarily I guess you could argue he creates/is made of a lot of types of radiation and Kevin would need to dodge the fastest one? Keep in mind that gamma radiation is invisible though.

I agree with this assessment in general.

I do too, my argument doesn’t rely on this though. Although out of curiosity what would the maximum speed difference between one’s reactions and one’s flight speed be so that one can still safely get to a destination in space? For instance I don’t think we humans would be able to fly in space properly at MFTL+ speeds with a rocket without crashing into something. Would something like a 10000 or 100000 times gap between reactions and flight speed be fine to assume?

 

[Greenshifter]

Wow an actual anti-feat that isn’t Zs’skayr or comes from an inconsistent episode, good job. Which form of Malware was this again?

I'll have to come back on this lol. You see when Max says that Malware doesn't have FTL capability, he also says he couldn't have left the Galvan system YET. Which means they only have a short timeframe to catch him before he leaves the Galvan system. Yet the size of the solar system is either several light hours/days or more than 1 lightyear and the Galvan system should be comparable in size. Thus either Max's statement is inconsistent with itself or I'm even starting to think that the speed of light in Ben 10 might simply be faster than our speed of light, that'd explain a few things.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

If I didn't say scales to in the feat itself then it's pointless to say stuff like this since this is just the feat itself I linked and just wrote the reason why it scales under it. Even then you could still scales his reactions are like 1/10000th of his flight speed to at least have some idea of where he's going and be able to stop in time.

See above.

Keep this in mind, I’m not done with it yet.

Actually yeah I just noticed the jets of water coming from Aggregor. Funnily enough this doesn't matter since Aggregor when flying in space right after exiting the planet doesn't go any faster than in the water and Big Chill's just flying under water, if you were to argue that somehow massively slows him down while being under water then he should have gone intangible instead of turning into Ultimate Big Chill, which he didn't.

We don’t see him move faster because she’s still within the atmosphere and we don’t fully see him fly away. Also there are times where Ben just forgets to go intangible as Big Chill.

Either he has some stretched view of space or whatever in Hyperspace or he has the Omnitrix display the map of where he is relative to the universe, he'd still need to jump out of hyperspace in time. And even then he should have been going at his max MFTL+ speed when going back out since he had to speed up to enter it. If his reactions scale to hyperspace then his regular flight does as well to an extent, I doesn't make a ton of sense but hey it still happened.

So you’re just making assumptions? But anyway. Hyperspace is like a form of teleportation since Jetray literally has to open a portal through space to reach there

Guess Ben just chose the slightly faster alternative which would also allow him to not have to deal with objects being in his way.

This contradicts your premise. Why would someone with MFTL+ reactions have to worry about things getting in their way?

If we use 10 minutes or more for Vilgax' flight speed it would make sense (there was a scene-cut in the episode after all)

Why are you assuming 10 minutes? There were cut always for Jetray’s hyperspace too. I guess I should assume it took an hour am I right?

and prove that Ultimate Aggregor did that in 10 minutes, from what I remember they still needed to get out of Ledgerdomain and all whereas he teleported out. All I said is flew to another galaxy in a short timeframe, maybe it's an hour, 10 minutes, several hours? Also Aggregor specifically got the aliens that he did to be able to fly to another galaxy, who knows maybe AmpFibian is a hidden super fast flyer after all?

Did what in 10 minutes? Where are all these random numbers coming from? Aggregor literally flew from a random galaxy to outside the universe. So far to the point the universe looks like a mere star in the distance

Neither do the relativistic characters traverse the globe several times over when they fight. Also cinematic timing is a thing, characters who’s reactions keep up with their own flight speed look as if they move at human speed both to themselves and as a consequence the audience or else we wouldn’t be able to see anything of the fight.

Fair enough

Also you do know that Jetray being an MFTL+ flyer for scaling Vilgax is already accepted and applied on his page right?

Then that needs to be changed. Vilgax’s feat >> Jetray’s hyperspace feat. Why the hell would his regular flight and reaction speed be so much greater than his hyperspace feat?

It seems a double standard to me to have to prove characters are flying at max speed when you want to scale them to each other but this not applying to any other speed stat you're trying to scale between characters. (ex. if Rook's FTL then you don't need to prove he moves at max combat speed to scale Khyber to FTL) Also if the solution was just for one of the 2 characters to move faster to tag or outpace the other one then they would have done so and clearly neither of them could. Also Tetrax and Gwen react to them flying so that's a bonus.

They’re flying in an atmosphere. Keep this in mind, I’m not done with it yet.

I assume you don't have a problem with all the other FTL and MFTL feats that debunk your point them since you didn't address them?

I already went over my problems with the Waybig feat. It’s literally why I want to downgrade him to Relativistic. Also if the tachyon stuff is legit, then that’s just another anti feat. What makes a tachyon massively FTL+?

Imagine using a quote from Kevin to say his ship can only move at supersonic speeds in atmosphere when 1) logically the atmosphere doesn't change anything when it comes to speed, 2) Tetrax was able to warp to hyperspace within the atmosphere, 3) by scaling alone according to your interpretation his show would be relativistic instead of supersonic and 4) I still think he was referencing a hyperdrive that gives access to hyperspace at that moment so it's pretty irrelevant to it's max regular speed. Also some of your points I already debunked before so you're doing the same thing.

Why the heck would the atmosphere slow him down?

It’s almost as if the RB3 needs to leave the atmosphere to achieve FTL speeds.

Here's the fun thing though, you admit the time cycles blitz the time beast and that the time beast is FTL, so logically they'd have no problem outpacing a black hole regardless.

When did I say that? The hell?

So either 1) That black hole is faster than light,

Yes that’s the point. They had a head start and they still almost got caught. A black hole > time cycles.

2) it's PIS,

No it’s not. The time cycles don’t have any greater feats than that

3) they weren't using the full speed of the time cycles.

That’s some extraordinary headcanon. Why would they not be going at full speed then they’re being chased by a literal black hole? That’s the most boneheaded argument you’ve made.

In each case no contradiction, just Ben 10 being weird. In fact I'd say that the episode itself is being inconsistent in speed, perhaps we should discard it altogether?

It’s not “being weird,” you’re being dismissive and ignoring logic.

First off we agreed that XLR8 would still be FTL even if your revision went through since he blitzes Rook (via scaling to other Kinecelerans)

I never agreed to it. I said I would have no problem with it personally. Even then you can still be baseline FTL and get tagged by light. It’s an anti-feat for massively FTL+ not FTL.

to a similar degree as the time beast does, second off that's Hex's magical attack, so unless you wanna argue Vilgax is subsonic for not dodging Echo Echo's sound waves or that Ultimate Kevin is lower than MHS+ for not doding Gwen's lightning (albeit he did absorb it), I'd suggest not using other people's attacks that can easily upscale, especially if they're not even stated or proven to move at the speed of light.

The difference between Echo Echo and co. is that they have feats. All Hex did was flash light at XLR8 and that’s it. It has no other feats, showings or anti feats. It’s just a flash of light and XLR8 got tagged by it.

Your second link doesn't work,

Here: https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/b..._Patrol.png/revision/latest?cb=20190502123748

in each this actually helps my case because 1) Ben not having the time to chill out is his own fault since he refuses help from anyone else so he’s really suffering from himself checking on every corner of the planet to keep it safe every few seconds/minutes (when he’s not fighting someone with comparable speed to himself that is) and 2) Patrolling all over the planet in a short timeframe would actually be an MFTL+ feat since there’s a lot of area to cover.

It says he patrols the whole planet 24/7 not some arbitrary time frame. And the statement in context, he literally says that he has no time because he’s patrolling the planet.

Unrelated Marvel quote instead of actually proving it?

Greenshitfter. All I’m doing is giving an example of writers separating the speeds. I’m not saying “MoA said this is true.” What I’m saying it’s possible that’s what they think due to the circumstances.

I'll have to come back on this lol. You see when Max says that Malware doesn't have FTL capability, he also says he couldn't have left the Galvan system YET. Which means they only have a short timeframe to catch him before he leaves the Galvan system. Yet the size of the solar system is either several light hours/days or more than 1 lightyear and the Galvan system should be comparable in size. Thus either Max's statement is inconsistent with itself or I'm even starting to think that the speed of light in Ben 10 might simply be faster than our speed of light, that'd explain a few things.

Then why didn’t he leave the system? Also Max said Malware isn’t capable of moving at FTL speeds. All it does is support my argument dude.

I think I made my point clear as well, Ben 10 is inconsistent but both relativistic and MFTL+ have about equal backing to them so the only way to actually solve this stalemate is a possibly rating.

So you’re admitting it’s inconsistent but you chose the route that inflates statistics and makes the inconsistencies worse.
All of the massively FTL+ feats you presented aren’t even consistent with themselves because some massively FTL+ feats contradict others. Aggregor, Vilgax, and Jetray’s feats aren’t compatible because you’re scaling their normal movement above Jetray’s hyperspace.
Vilgax himself crashes whenever he’s landing, showing he can’t react at MFTL+ speeds to land properly.
Aggregor’s feats are far greater than anything else, making it the textbook definition of an outlier.
Jetray having the hyperspace ability at all.
Characters being tagged by light multiple times.
Characters being blitzed by FTL monsters.
Characters being unable to move FTL.
Characters being outpaced by a black hole.
Radiation and tachyons not being blitzed to a standstill.
Stinkfly not circling the earth multiple times in an instant when delivering presents.
Feedback having no further context for his flights.
ETC! I’m sorry Green, we usually assume a character’s reactions equate to their flight speed if there are no contradiction. But Ben 10 has too many.

 

[Antvasima]

I do too, my argument doesn’t rely on this though. Although out of curiosity what would the maximum speed difference between one’s reactions and one’s flight speed be so that one can still safely get to a destination in space? For instance I don’t think we humans would be able to fly in space properly at MFTL+ speeds with a rocket without crashing into something. Would something like a 10000 or 100000 times gap between reactions and flight speed be fine to assume?

I am not sure. We should probably ask @DontTalkDT for that sort of queries.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I am not sure. We should probably ask @DontTalkDT for that sort of queries.

Through empty space? I think we have sometimes assumed space flight and combat speed are comparable. Then again, I think not always either.
In any case it depends on how you fly, but it can be pretty damn large. Space is just awfully empty.
In fact, here's a quote.

In 2006, NASA’s spacecraft New Horizons traveled through the asteroid belt on its way to Pluto. New Horizons principal investigator Alan Stern explained: “Fortunately, the asteroid belt is so huge that, despite its large population of small bodies, the chance of running into one is almost vanishingly small – far less than one in a billion. That means if you want to come close enough to an asteroid to make detailed studies of it, you have to aim for one.”

Relativistic effects aside a human could with relative safety fly a spaceship to another solar system at relativistic or even MFTL+ speed. The only real requirement is that they slow down once they get close to a planet/star, because getting the timing right to land something at FTL speed would be beyond their reaction time.
It's basically like driving a car. On a straight empty freeway you can go pretty much as fast as you like, but when you try to park you should start slowing down.

 

[Greenshifter]

What about traveling at billions of times the speed of light though? Would you need at least lightspeed reactions to see where you’re going?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

What about traveling at billions of times the speed of light though? Would you need at least lightspeed reactions to see where you’re going?

@DontTalkDT I'm also interested to see your answer.
Anyway, Green and I will have a VC, so apologies in advance if we don’t respond immediately.

 

[Greenshifter]

Yeah I’ll address Zamasu’s arguments there, since it’ll save us both the time.

 

[DontTalkDT]

What about traveling at billions of times the speed of light though? Would you need at least lightspeed reactions to see where you’re going?

I haven't really read the thread. It depends about the details of the travel.
Like, say you fly from here to the Andromeda Galaxy in 10 minutes. That is about 130 billion times the speed of light on average.
However, you could fly there in pretty much a straight line without crashing into anything. At a size of 220000 lightyears you would also have no problem pressing the brake on time to not fly through it. If you then wish to pilot to a star in the galaxy that is a few million kilometers from your end position you might want to fly there a bit slower in order to not miss the timing to initiate the landing.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Ghostfreak only gets hurt like that by light.

Wild how "energy beam that's visually slow has sunlight properties" in a high-end sci-fi universe is harder to believe than these characters actually breaking light speed reactions.

 

[Greenshifter]

Fair on Zs’skayr I guess, I already acknowledged him as an anti-feat... then again this also means the sun gun isn’t an anti-feat for being faster than light, so thanks? Although visually slow? I mean cinematic timing and all...?

 

[Antvasima]

I haven't really read the thread. It depends about the details of the travel.
Like, say you fly from here to the Andromeda Galaxy in 10 minutes. That is about 130 billion times the speed of light on average.
However, you could fly there in pretty much a straight line without crashing into anything. At a size of 220000 lightyears you would also have no problem pressing the brake on time to not fly through it. If you then wish to pilot to a star in the galaxy that is a few million kilometers from your end position you might want to fly there a bit slower in order to not miss the timing to initiate the landing.

Thank you very much for helping out @DontTalkDT .

Would you be willing to further develop our Speed standards for this?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Edited the OP.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you very much for helping out DontTalkDT.

Would you be willing to further develop our Speed standards for this?

@DontTalkDT

 

[DontTalkDT]

I feel like that will need further public debate. With my current backlog it seems like a bad idea for me to handle this now.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Bump. Just a reminder, I edited the OP. Please take a look.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Gwen struggles to dodge lightning. (It's real lightning because it's coming from a literal storm cloud)

Wait, Gwen since was a child scale to the FTL feats?

 

[LightReinh12345]

Yeh that was one weird Gwen as a child was never that fast
This shouldn't be on anti feats
Other than that agree with everything

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Gwen is comparable to Charmcaster, Future Animo, Hex, a mutant Bird, and other peeps.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Gwen child?

 

[Firestorm808]

Sounds like tachyon radiation to me then.

Ehm it doesn’t necessarily I guess you could argue he creates/is made of a lot of types of radiation and Kevin would need to dodge the fastest one? Keep in mind that gamma radiation is invisible though.

So, does that help support it as an SoL/FTL weapon?

NRG passively emits invisible gamma radiation as shown by the geiger counters. He is able to condense them into a visible beam. Gwen even got hit by the radiation beam, passing through her as radiation does.

 

[Greenshifter]

Bump. Just a reminder, I edited the OP. Please take a look.

Dodging in mid-air ain't a thing and Gwen actually dodges lightning after being caught off guard, you for real here?

Wait, Gwen since was a child scale to the FTL feats?

Yeah she does (already, look at her page), all humans that are relevant should scale to the speed feats, Zamasu agrees on the notion. We'll have to make a seperate thread for it though.

 

[Greenshifter]

So, does that help support it as an SoL/FTL weapon?

NRG passively emits invisible gamma radiation as shown by the geiger counters. He is able to condense them into a visible beam. Gwen even got hit by the radiation beam, passing through her as radiation does.

I think so, don't know what else could cause the radiation but tachyons.

Gwen even got hit by the radiation beam, passing through her as radiation does.

Can you give me a scan? That doesn't happen to the other characters iirc.

 

[Firestorm808]

It's not in English, but it's the only one on youtube.

 

[DemonicDude]

It's not in English, but it's the only one on youtube.

English link

 

[Huzy]

To me the lightning looks much slower than actual lightning, here a bunch of normal people seem to be able to run a decent distance before it strikes the ground but I'm not too knowledgeable about Ben 10 so take it as you will.

 

[Greenshifter]

Hmm fair point (although the 2 actions might be simultaneous), might not be actual lightning at all then.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Dodging in mid-air ain't a thing

Yes it is. It’s not impossible do dodge something in mid air. Especially when the one dodging is massively faster than any form of lightningaccording to you.

and Gwen actually dodges lightning after being caught off guard, you for real here?

People say “off guard” all the time but do they actually know what it means? It means “Not watchful, easily surprised.” Gwen saw the S.A.M and her first thought was to dodge his lightning. Even if she was “taken off guard” like you say, the lightning would literally be motionless in her perspective.

To me the lightning looks much slower than actual lightning, here a bunch of normal people seem to be able to run a decent distance before it strikes the ground but I'm not too knowledgeable about Ben 10 so take it as you will.

I think that’s just a case of bad editing. The lightning comes from a machine that creates storm clouds and then uses those clouds to emit the lightning. So it’s definitely natural cloud-to-ground lightning.

 

[Greenshifter]

Yes it is. It’s not impossible do dodge something in mid air. Especially when the one dodging is massively faster than any form of lightningaccording to you.

Lmao you actually used that . Don’t you see that Humungousaur has life hacks? Anyways no you can’t move your center of gravity while in mid-air without outside forces either Malware has shit aim or Humungousaur gets double jump on his page. Also as for S.A.M. being able to tag XLR8 in the sky, well I’ll let Cisco explain it for you (1:27).

Also Gwen did dodge the lightning (and with off-guard I mean the surprised expression she makes), at best it seemed she was knocked away by the shockwave or maybe she was just gonna land that way regardless.

Then again pointless to discuss this here.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

What does Cisco have to do with anything?

 

[Greenshifter]

Cisco is physically speaking right, the science he explained is correct, more or less.

 

[Antvasima]

@Firestorm808

So what are the conclusions here so far?

 

[Tllmbrg]

I support the downgrade

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Bump.

 

[Antvasima]

So what are the conclusions here so far?

 

[Greenshifter]

Well Zamasu and I are still gonna debate this in private otherwise the walls of texts are gonna make the thread too unclear. So for now I’d say no conclusions yet, especially since Zamasu edited the OP and no staff have agreed with the revised OP yet.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. What was changed in the OP?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

My premise changed from Relativistic to Massively Hypersonic(+).

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

What do you think that we should do here @Firestorm808 ?