Ben 10 Speed Revision

[Zamasu_Chan]

The Ben 10 speed statistics are pretty bleh if you ask me.

Accepted speed feats​

Zs'Skayr dodges Sun Gun​

This calc puts Zs'Skayr at relativistic. However there's no evidence that the beam is light speed. Also despite being relativistic, he still can't dodge natural flashes of light. Here shows the sun gun scene and Zs'Skayr being blitzed by light.

Kevin dodges radiation​

This calc has Kevin at FTL. Not only is there no evidence of the blast being light speed, watch carfully, and you’ll see that Kevin was aim dodging.

Travel speed feats​

Here and here are two feats that are massively FTL+ but only scale to travel speeds. Even Jetray needs to go into hyperspace to move at those speeds, showing it's not common to react at those speeds regularly.

List of feats​

Travel speed​

Jetray uses hyperspace.
Vilgax and Sugilite fly across the galaxy.
Aggregor flies to the Perplexahedron.
Albedo stops flying to destroy a planet.
Feedback propels through space.
Malgax flies to Galvan B.

Reaction speed​

Conquest Ray.

Anti Feats​

Despite being able to traverse and patrol the globe, Ben 10k doesn’t have time to hang out for himself.
Stinkfly takes 4 hours and 55 minutes to give presents across the globe. Look closely. When Stinkfly first leaves the North Pole, it's a little after 7:05 pm. He finishes exactly when it hits midnight.
Gwen struggles to dodge lightning. (It's real lightning because it's coming from a literal storm cloud)
XLR8 get's tagged by normal lightning.
FTL Time Beast blitzes Ben and Rook. (Only seems to be FTL via teleportation)
XLR8 gets blinded by light.
Zs'Skayr always get's outpaced by light.
Max says Malware has no FTL capabilities. If he had FTL capabilities, he'd heve FTL reflexes. This heavily implies Ben 10 characters aren’t regularly FTL.
Even with a head start and using Time Cycles, Ben and co. almost get caught in a black hole.

Conclusion​

There are too many anti feats for FTL ben 10 and should be downgraded to Massively Hypersonic(+).

 

[Firestorm808]

We went over the Zs'Skayr feat in an earlier thread. https://vsbattles.com/threads/ben-10-speed-scaling-takes-an-l.61322/

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

It was never concluded, and even then, there’s no evidence of it being light speed. Especially with the new light speed standards apparently.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

they never even call it light lol

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Holy shit Dargoo?

 

[Greenshifter]

they never even call it light lol

Ghostfreak only gets hurt like that by light.

Also hi Dargoo, welcome back.

 

[Greenshifter]

Ghostfreak seems to have been somewhat caught off guard in some of those scenes though.

Can’t Milleous have 2 conquest rays? Duncan already confirmed that the one Way Big countered is one.

Does Kevin aim-dodging matter? Wasn’t it just calced how much he moved in relation to the light?

Jetray is the only alien even being shown of going into hyperspace and it made him far surpass the ship that would scale to his regular flight speed.

The OS aliens should indeed scale in speed to UAF/OV, technically that’s already accepted and thanks for the Malgax speed calc.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Can’t Milleous have 2 conquest rays? Duncan already confirmed that the one Way Big countered is one.

Is it stated in the show that he has two? This looks like a clear cut example of Death of the Author. May I see the statement?

Does Kevin aim-dodging matter? Wasn’t it just calced how much he moved in relation to the light?

It absolutely matters. Did you see the slowed down clip? Kevin moves out the way before the plast is fired. And like I said before, there's no evidence of it being light speed.

Jetray is the only alien even being shown of going into hyperspace and it made him far surpass the ship that would scale to his regular flight speed.

Ok. Well this doesn’t relly prove or disprove anything. It just shows that Ben 10 is one of those shows that separate flight speed and reactions.

The OS aliens should indeed scale in speed to UAF/OV, technically that’s already accepted and thanks for the Malgax speed calc.

Yes.

 

[Greenshifter]

Is it stated in the show that he has two? This looks like a clear cut example of Death of the Author. May I see the statement?

No but he says “a” Conquest Ray instead of “the” Conquest Ray. Meaning it isn’t necessarily a unique object and thus doesn’t contradict the WoG.

It absolutely matters. Did you see the slowed down clip? Kevin moves out the way before the plast is fired. And like I said before, there's no evidence of it being light speed.

I did (now), Kevin was still at about his starting position the frame before the beam fires and moves a larger distance than the beam 1 frame after. I think that was the main point of the calc

Ok. Well this doesn’t relly prove or disprove anything. It just shows that Ben 10 is one of those shows that separate flight speed and reactions.

Not really, it just shows that Jetray has a technique which doesn’t scale to his reaction speed, not that everyone who space travels doesn’t. In fact Evil Way Big in Cosmic Destruction explicitly reacts to his cosmic storm movement speed.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

No but he says “a” Conquest Ray instead of “the” Conquest Ray. Meaning it isn’t necessarily a unique object and thus doesn’t contradict the WoG.

If that’s the case then that’s fine, but we’ll have to keep the consistency.

I did (now), Kevin was still at about his starting position the frame before the beam fires and moves a larger distance than the beam 1 frame after. I think that was the main point of the calc

Why would Kevin moving when he was already out the way matter? And again where’s the evidence that it’s light speed?

Not really, it just shows that Jetray has a technique which doesn’t scale to his reaction speed, not that everyone who space travels doesn’t. In fact Evil Way Big in Cosmic Destruction explicitly reacts to his cosmic storm movement speed.

I think you missed my point. If the cast are regularly MFTL+ then that’ll contradict to notion that Jetray needs to go into hyperspace just to move at those speeds.

Then there’s the FTL Time Beast blitzing them and characters not perceiving real lasers in slow motion. Massively FTL+ would be too inconsistent.

 

[Antvasima]

I personally do not mind scaling them to a relativistic calculation instead, but am not the best person to ask.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I personally do not mind scaling them to a relativistic calculation instead, but am not the best person to ask.

Do you think you could tag a few staff in here?

 

[Greenshifter]

If that’s the case then that’s fine, but we’ll have to keep the consistency.

Feedback dodges the FTL tachyon cannon and Gravattack and Feedback caught up to the time beast (instead of it blitzing them) and Skurd-Bloxx’ attacks moved relative or even faster than it. So yeah scaling everyone to the Conquest Ray might be necessary to keep consistency.

Why would Kevin moving when he was already out the way matter? And again where’s the evidence that it’s light speed?

Because he moved more distance than the beam in the same timeframe, that’s all that really matters. I could argue it’s gamma radiation and thus lightspeed, the carbon rods might say no to that though, although radiation itself should move at the speed of light. Maybe Dargoo can clarify?

I think you missed my point. If the cast are regularly MFTL+ then that’ll contradict to notion that Jetray needs to go into hyperspace just to move at those speeds.

Then you missed my point since Hyperspace allowed Jetray to massively outspeed a spaceship that would scale to other people’s MFTL+ speeds (he took 10 minutes or less to go to a location that took the ship an hour or more IIRC), thus proving it’s use.

characters not perceiving real lasers

Which ones? If it were characters’ attacks they’d just scale, unless we’re downgrading Superman for having realistic heat vision lasers?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Feedback dodges the FTL tachyon cannon and Gravattack and Feedback caught up to the time beast (instead of it blitzing them) and Skurd-Bloxx’ attacks moved relative or even faster than it. So yeah scaling everyone to the Conquest Ray might be necessary to keep consistency.

What makes the tachyon cannon FTL? Btw it's not unbelievable for a relativistic character to catch a FTL one since they're so close to each other. Watch and you'll see she dodges all their attacks and Gravattack only catches her when he anticipates her moves. Feedback was only able to catch her was when she was taken off guard due to being distracted by Rook or when she's literally just standing there. Also why would Rook comment on her being "appearing" to be FTL

Because he moved more distance than the beam in the same timeframe, that’s all that really matters. I could argue it’s gamma radiation and thus lightspeed, the carbon rods might say no to that though, although radiation itself should move at the speed of light. Maybe Dargoo can clarify?

Yes. We need more evidence it has the properties of literal light.

Then you missed my point since Hyperspace allowed Jetray to massively outspeed a spaceship that would scale to other people’s MFTL+ speeds, thus proving it’s use.

Ok, still doesn’t make MFTL+ reactions for everyone consistent.

Which ones? If it were characters’ attacks they’d just scale, unless we’re downgrading Superman for having realistic heat vision lasers?

That's not how anti feats work but anyway. I'm taking about Chromastone's ultra violet rays and the Ruby ray of Rouleau. Also Zs'Skayr literally always being caught by natural light.

 

[Greenshifter]

What makes the tachyon

Tachyons are FTL by definition.

Ok, still doesn’t make MFTL+ reactions for everyone consistent.

Never said this specific thing proves it, just that it’s not an anti-feat.

That's not how anti feats work but anyway. I'm taking about Chromastone's ultra violet rays and the Ruby ray of Rouleau. Also Zs'Skayr literally always being caught by natural light.

XLR8 manipulates friction to move as fast as he does, he’d still be FTL for blitzing Rook to a similar or higher degree the time beast does. So physically it wouldn’t make sense yet it happens. Like I said we’d need to downgrade every verse where light beam attacks tag someone to below SoL following this reasoning. There are also times where the natural light Ghostfreak gets caught by is already there so he can’t dodge it if he moves out of the shadows, but I guess you do have a point with him.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Tachyons are FTL by definition.

Wait. Just because it’s called the tachyon cannon? Isn’t that a literal fallacy? Just because something or someone has the name of something, doesn’t mean it has the properties of said thing. (For example One Punch Man or Vegeta’s Big Bang attack).
Please give more context if necessary.

XLR8 manipulates friction to move as fast as he does, he’d still be FTL for blitzing Rook to a similar or higher degree the time beast does. So physically it wouldn’t make sense yet it happens.

Ok? XLR8 is Ben’s fastest ground Alien. Him being FTL and the rest being Relativistic isn’t an issue. Almost all the MFTL+ feats are conveniently feats of characters flying through space or space ships, but as soon as a character is described as being FTL while on the ground, it’s portrayed as impressive.

Like I said we’d need to downgrade every verse where light beam attacks tag someone to below SoL following this reasoning.

It’s a case by case and it depends on the context. If you have an issue with other verses then make a CRT for that verse.

There are also times where the natural light Ghostfreak gets caught by is already there so he can’t dodge it if he moves out of the shadows, but I guess you do have a point with him.

Ok.

 

[Antvasima]

@Firestorm808 @Andytrenom

Would you be willing to help out here please?

 

[Greenshifter]

Wait. Just because it’s called the tachyon cannon?

It's a cannon that fires tachyons, it's not even a fancy name that Ben gave it but Plumber equipment. It not firing tachons would be very confusing (for any rookie who's learning about it or trying to use it). It's the same as a nuclear fusion grenade or drive actually using nuclear fusion, an ion drive using ions and a Hyperspace Jump Gate leading into Hyperspace. I'll see if I can find a (redundant) statement of it using tachyons though.

Him being FTL and the rest being Relativistic isn’t an issue. Almost all the MFTL+ feats are conveniently feats of characters flying through space or space ships, but as soon as a character is described as being FTL while on the ground, it’s portrayed as impressive.

I was talking about how powers that shouldn't function past SoL such as XLR8's, still do, thus there is no reason why these light beams can't. Obviously most MFTL+ speed feats take place where there's actually room to perform them yes, not everyone is the Flash where the plot demands them to reset every radio on earth in a zeptosecond (since practically speaking relativistic or FTL speed is more than enough to get anywhere on earth practically instantly and the plot rarely demands for more than that). Way Big countering the Conquest Ray wasn't seen as impressive speed-wise, nor was the Galvanic Mechamorph Ship getting shot down from the surface of another planet by those cyclopses while it was travelling in space. Galvanic Mechamorphs are also better than supercomputers so they'd have FTL (or way higher) processing speed, thus everytime someone tags Upgrade or Ship before they can strategize, they scale to FTL. In fact Vilgax and Jetray were flying at MFTL+ speeds on earth, as is applied on Jetray's page, since Jetray was unable to get away from Vilgax (thus regardless of how fast he could go) and even states as such.

It’s a case by case and it depends on the context. If you have an issue with other verses then make a CRT for that verse.

You're essentially proposing a system change where characters' realistic attacks need to be accounted for when talking about higher ratings. Essentially saying that someone who barely dodges a lightning attack can't scale to a lightspeed attack since that wouldn't be consistent, even though you need the lightning dodge to prove dodging light is consistent, essentially creating a double-standard in evidence. This would only work in series where characters get massively stronger and faster and discriminate against verses where they don't, which is not how we currently do things, even then you’re also saying that the characters from those series who use certain elemental attacks can not get any faster, creating massive scaling inconsistencies. So in a sense you're the one who should make a CRT.

 

[SomebodyData]

I agree with Zamas on most of his points (Mostly OP points) but am neutral on the Tachyon Cannon feat. It's surprisingly common for names to be crazy inaccurate, but a brief scan or showing that it fires Tachyons should suffice.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

It's a cannon that fires tachyons, it's not even a fancy name that Ben gave it but Plumber equipment. It not firing tachons would be very confusing, it's the same as a nuclear fusion grenade actually using nuclear fusion and a Hyperspace Jump Gate leading into Hyperspace. I'll see if I can find a (redundant) statement of it using tachyons though.

Well if you say so. There should be calculations revolving around that though

I was talking about how powers that shouldn't function past SoL such as XLR8's, still do, thus there is no reason why these light beams can't.

That doesn’t matter when the speed of light is considered impressive.

Obviously most MFTL+ speed feats take place where there's actually room to perform them yes, not everyone is the Flash where the plot demands them to reset every radio on earth in a zeptosecond.Way Big countering the Conquest Ray wasn't seen as impressive speed-wise, nor was the Galvanic Mechamorph Ship getting shot down from the surface of another planet by those cyclopses while it was travelling in space.
Galvanic Mechamorphs are also better than supercomputers so they'd have FTL (or way higher) processing speed, thus everytime someone tags Upgrade or Ship before they can strategize, they scale to FTL. In fact Vilgax and Jetray were flying at MFTL+ speeds on earth, as is applied on Jetray's page, since Jetray was unable to get away from Vilgax (thus regardless of how fast he could go) and even states as such.

My point is the MFTL+ ratings come from flying and some times writers like to differentiate flight speed and reactions. Especially when the flight feats are much greater than reactionary ones by a large margin. The only reactionary MFTL feat is the Conquest Ray.

You're essentially proposing a system change where realistic attacks need to be accounted for when talking about higher ratings. Essentially saying that someone who barely dodges lightning can't scale to a lightspeed attack since that wouldn't be consistent, even though you need the lightning dodge to prove dodging light is consistent, essentially creating a double-standard in evidence. This would only work in series where character get massively stronger and faster and discriminate against verses where they don't, which is not how we currently do things, even then you’re also saying that the characters from those shows who use certain elemental attacks can not get any faster, creating massive scaling inconsistencies. So in a sense you're the one who should make a CRT.

I’m not proposing anything. We’ve always tried to keep things consistent. Some verses just get away with more things compared to others.

 

[Greenshifter]

My point is the MFTL+ ratings come from flying and some times writers like to differentiate flight speed and reactions. Especially when the flight feats are much greater than reactionary ones by a large margin. The only reactionary MFTL feat is the Conquest Ray.

Wrong, the cyclops one, potentially Galvanic Mechamorphs and the Cosmic Destruction feat where Evil Way Big reacts to a planet that's in his way are all MFTL(+) reaction feats. Kevin probably has one in the Rust Bucket as well.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Wrong, the cyclops one,

Ship was already on the planet when they shot him.

potentially Galvanic Mechamorphs

What are you even talking about? What super computer? Where’s the statement?

and the Cosmic Destruction feat where Evil Way Big reacts to a planet that's in his way are all MFTL(+) reaction feats.

That leave us with 2 feats then. And one of them’s not even in the show. Compare that to the amount of laser timings that you didn’t disprove but dismiss.

 

[Greenshifter]

Ship was already on the planet when they shot him.

Fair then I guess. Kinda funny how our arguments reversed here compared to a year ago.

What are you even talking about? What super computer? Where’s the statement?

Plumber ships are level 7 tech and Ship can transform into a comparable high-tech ship as well as upgrade or hack practically every technology level there is, meanwhile all earth tech isn’t supposed to go above level 3. Which would include quantum computers which are FTL.

That leave us with 2 feats then. And one of them’s not even in the show. Compare that to the amount of laser timings that you didn’t disprove but dismiss.

I dismiss laser attacks for the same reason you dismiss lightning/electricity timings. I wouldn’t dismiss real life light (which isn’t an attack) that can’t feasibly upscale to FTL though. So if you can bring more stuff like Ghostfreak failing to dodge actual light then you’d have a point.

I also forgot to mention Jetray and Vilgax flying at full speed on earth and changing flight direction which would scale their flight speed to their reactions.

 

[Greenshifter]

Although I do have a proposal: How about relativistic, possibly MFTL(+)? That way we acknowledge that characters sometimes can’t dodge natural light and see FTL as superior to them, while also acknowledging Ben 10 is a space-faring franchise where people can react to their (ship’s) flight speeds and react to certain (way) faster than light attacks? That seems the best option to me due to the inconsistent nature of Ben 10 and the dual narrative that it is trying to tell.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Plumber ships are level 7 tech and Ship can transform into a comparable high-tech ship as well as upgrade or hack practically every technology level there is, meanwhile all earth tech isn’t supposed to go above level 3. Which would include quantum computers which are FTL.

You know the speed at which you can process info doesn’t equate to actual combat right?

I dismiss laser attacks for the same reason you dismiss lightning/electricity timings. I wouldn’t dismiss real life light (which isn’t an attack) that can’t feasibly upscale to FTL though. So if you can bring more stuff like Ghostfreak failing to dodge actual light then you’d have a point.

I mean, aren’t Chromastone’s beams UV rays, which are just light speed? Also I guess you have a point with the lightning thing but characters never had a hard time dodging cloud to ground lightning, AKA real lightning.

I also forgot to mention Jetray and Vilgax flying at full speed on earth and changing flight direction which would scale their flight speed to their reactions.

Jetray wasn’t moving at full speed. If he was he would’ve gone into hyperspace. And whenever Vilgax is flying through space he always crash lands as if he can’t see where he’s going.

Although I do have a proposal: How about relativistic, possibly MFTL(+)? That way we acknowledge that characters sometimes can’t dodge natural light and see FTL as superior to them, while also acknowledging Ben 10 is a space-faring franchise where people can react to their (ship’s) flight speeds and react to certain (way) faster than light attacks? That seems the best option to me due to the inconsistent nature of Ben 10 and the dual narrative that it is trying to tell.

That’s not a good idea, especially considering how writers different travel and combat speed as well as the MFTL+ feats themselves being the characters flying in straight lines.

 

[Greenshifter]

You know the speed at which you can process info doesn’t equate to actual combat right?

Sure but it does relate to strategizing, as I said above.

Chromastone’s beams UV rays, which are just light speed?

Chromastone’s beams can upscale just like Frankenstrike’s or Brainstorm’s lightning do. Light unrelated to a character can’t.

Jetray wasn’t moving at full speed. If he was he would’ve gone into hyperspace. And whenever Vilgax is flying through space he always crash lands as if he can’t see where he’s going

Yeah obviously his full speed without going into Hyperspace (he didn’t wanna flee earth), thought that was obvious. If he weren’t going at full speed then he wouldn’t have made the statement that he can’t shake Vilgax off. Vilgax crash lands because he’s Vilgax, he didn’t crash land into Petropia’s remnants either or else Chromastone would have seen him coming + he’d still need reactions to somewhat keep up with where he’s going as to not end up on another planet or whatever.

That’s not a good idea, especially considering how writers different travel and combat speed as well as the MFTL+ feats themselves being the characters flying in straight lines.

Proof that MoA does? Also they don’t always do straight lines.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Although I do have a proposal: How about relativistic, possibly MFTL(+)? That way we acknowledge that characters sometimes can’t dodge natural light and see FTL as superior to them, while also acknowledging Ben 10 is a space-faring franchise where people can react to their (ship’s) flight speeds and react to certain (way) faster than light attacks? That seems the best option to me due to the inconsistent nature of Ben 10 and the dual narrative that it is trying to tell.

Tho would this affect Way big speed as well or only the other Aliens?

 

[Greenshifter]

Tho would this affect Way big speed as well or only the other Aliens

Everyone

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Everyone

Really? What about Way Big reacting to an MFTL weapon?

 

[Greenshifter]

Consistency. Everyone always scales to Way Big level opponents in speed.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Consistency. Everyone always scales to Way Big level opponents in speed.

You mean that his MFTL speed rating isn't consistent?

 

[Greenshifter]

You mean that his MFTL speed rating isn't consistent?

It is, everyone scales to him though so if everyone gets a possibly relativistic then so does he.

That said I think Way Big’s cosmic Ray by itself might also be (M)FTL for his evil counterpart’s feat in cosmic destruction. Gwen reacts to his cosmic Ray and Ben even mocks Gwen for her holding back after the fight, implying he wasn’t. (Variable tier for Gwen)

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Chromastone’s beams can upscale just like Frankenstrike’s or Brainstorm’s lightning do. Light unrelated to a character can’t.

Hypothetically speaking if something is stated to be light speed, then it should be considered when talking about anti feats. You saying it should upscale, would technically be ignoring context and reaching for the highest possible feat.

Yeah obviously his full speed without going into Hyperspace (he didn’t wanna flee earth), thought that was obvious. If he weren’t going at full speed then he wouldn’t have made the statement that he can’t shake Vilgax off.

That just shows that he travels faster in space than an atmosphere.

Vilgax crash lands because he’s Vilgax, he didn’t crash land into Petropia’s remnants either or else Chromastone would have seen him coming + he’d still need reactions to somewhat keep up with where he’s going as to not end up on another planet or whatever.

We don’t see him landing on Petropia, the whole thing is off screen. We don’t know where he landed in relation to *Sugilite. Also when flying through space, you’d be able to see where you land before slowing down. It’s like saying humans have supersonic+ reactions because they can fly a fighter jet.

Proof that MoA does? Also they don’t always do straight lines.

This a serious question? Ever heard of show don’t tell? If flight speed feats are far greater than consistent combat speed feats then that means flight is treated as >>> combat in this scenario.

You mean that his MFTL speed rating isn't consistent?

He thinks all of them are massively FTL+.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

He thinks all of them are massively FTL+.

...why?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

...why?

Because of the flight speed feats.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Well, a Tachyon is an FTL particle, but what's the context details behind the Tachyon cannon. It's fine it it's descried as a cannon that fires pure tachyons, then FTL for that is fine. But otherwise, I mostly agree with Zamasu Chan here and think he makes sense.

 

[Antvasima]

@SomebodyData @DarkDragonMedeus

So what should be done here?

 

[Antvasima]

You as well @Firestorm808 . I did not notice that you had replied first.

 

[Greenshifter]

Hypothetically speaking if something is stated to be light speed, then it should be considered when talking about anti feats

And other aliens' electricity isn't described as being lightning?

That just shows that he travels faster in space than an atmosphere.

Proof of this?

It’s like saying humans have supersonic+ reactions because they can fly a fighter jet.

It's like saying Vilgax has MFTL+ reactions in the stellar range for being able to fly an interstellar range.

This a serious question? Ever heard of show don’t tell? If flight speed feats are far greater than consistent combat speed feats then that means flight is treated as >>> combat in this scenario.

Show me a single character that flies completely outspeeding a character that isn't. Also Way Big's reaction speed feat while "flying" is like the third highest (non-infinite) speed feat in the verse. Also Kevin's car can keep pace with Rook's ship when they race after those bandits in the Otto episode, Rook's ship then gets severely damaged during the following fight and you see the ship flying towards earth at an extremely slow rate due to the damage it sustained. So Kevin's car = Rook's healthy ship on Khoros >> Rook's broken ship that travels interstellar distances.

There’s also another example with Big Chill, since it’s a migrating species they travel between star systems (and Ben 10 wiki says they go to their home planet after being born, however it’s probably the wrong planet that’s listed due to canonicity stuff). Thus they should have MFTL+ flight speed.

Now Ultimate Aggregor was flying underwater to get away as fast a possible (he got what he came for) from the planet Piscciss in the episode “Deep” and Big Chill was chasing him, however instead of going intangible to not get any drag from the water, the thing that supposedly slows both of them down to an immense degree, he switched to Ultimate Big Chill for an extra speed boost. This implies 2 things: 1) Big Chill was already going at his max MFTL+ flight speed and he can keep up with Aggregor’s MFTL+ flight speed in the billions of times FTL and 2) drag doesn’t affect flyers at all since both Big Chill and especially AmpFibian (the alien Aggregor uses to fly) are some of the worst flyers that Ben has and Jetray should be faster than them at all times. But that isn’t all since the inhabitants from Piscciss (Ripjaws’ species) kept up with (Ultimate) Big Chill’s flying speed by swimming and they even had a brief fight under water before Aggregor could even reach the surface, despite him flying at MFTL+ speeds, thus also scaling it to (Ultimate) Big Chill’s combat speed and reactions.

but what's the context details behind the Tachyon cannon. It's fine it it's descried as a cannon that fires pure tachyons, then FTL for that is fine

I don't think it is specifically described like that, however I can't think of a single weapon in Ben 10 that doesn't do what it's name spells out it does.

I’ll do the radiation stuff later, keep in mind that I rather prefer relativistic, possibly MFTL(+) (for now I can live with MFTL since we still need to calc some MFTL+ stuff, or at least get it accepted) since it’d be more consistent with Rook’s statement and Ghostfreak failing to dodge light than having everyone (including Way Big btw, who would also be affected by this revision) at just FTL since that’s essentially some sort of weird compromise.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

And other aliens' electricity isn't described as being lightning?

Idk what you mean by this but this point is going nowhere.

Proof of this?

I seriously have to repeat myself? Hyperspace. But I’ll go get that more in my next point.

It's like saying Vilgax has MFTL+ reactions in the stellar range for being able to fly an interstellar range.

It took Vilgax 1 minute and 10 seconds to cross half the galaxy. Jetray took 3 minutes and 55 seconds to cross half the galaxy. By your logic, everyone’s reactions >> Jetray when he’s going all out and forced to use hyperspace. An even bigger inconsistency is Aggregor flying so far outside the universe to the point it looks like a star in the distance.

Show me a single character that flies completely outspeeding a character that isn't. Also Way Big's reaction speed feat while "flying" is like the third highest (non-infinite) speed feat in the verse. Also Kevin's car can keep pace with Rook's ship when they race after those bandits in the Otto episode, Rook's ship then gets severely damaged during the following fight and you see the ship flying towards earth at an extremely slow rate due to the damage it sustained. So Kevin's car = Rook's healthy ship on Khoros >> Rook's broken ship that travels interstellar distances.

There’s also another example with Big Chill, since it’s a migrating species they travel between star systems (and Ben 10 wiki says they go to their home planet after being born, however it’s probably the wrong planet that’s listed due to canonicity stuff). Thus they should have MFTL+ flight speed.

Now Ultimate Aggregor was flying underwater to get away as fast a possible (he got what he came for) from the planet Piscciss in the episode “Deep” and Big Chill was chasing him, however instead of going intangible to not get any drag from the water, the thing that supposedly slows both of them down to an immense degree, he switched to Ultimate Big Chill for an extra speed boost. This implies 2 things: 1) Big Chill was already going at his max MFTL+ flight speed and he can keep up with Aggregor’s MFTL+ flight speed in the billions of times FTL and 2) drag doesn’t affect flyers at all since both Big Chill and especially AmpFibian (the alien Aggregor uses to fly) are some of the worst flyers that Ben has and Jetray should be faster than them at all times. But that isn’t all since the inhabitants from Piscciss (Ripjaws’ species) kept up with (Ultimate) Big Chill’s flying speed by swimming and they even had a brief fight under water before Aggregor could even reach the surface, despite him flying at MFTL+ speeds, thus also scaling it to (Ultimate) Big Chill’s combat speed and reactions.

Like I said before, these feats exceeding Jetray’s hyperspace just makes it all inconsistent. Plus the inconsistency where one of the fastest characters, on the ground, is said to “appear” FTL. If their reactions were that fast, they’d see the FTL Time Beast as a statue or Rook wouldn’t need to make that comment if he’s casually FTL. May I remind you the characters were almost caught in a black hole despite having using Time Cycles and having a head start before it started expanding.

As such, we have generally assumed that the characters' regular reaction or combat speeds are roughly equivalent to their flight speeds unless this is clearly contradicted.

With the evidence I’ve shown, there are too many inconsistencies for them to have MFTL+ reactions. None of the feats in OS even come close to MFTL+ and all their reactions correlate, further showing the inconsistency.

Anyway, Ant and 2 other administrators agree with the OP. So the chances will likely be made.