A downgrade for space beyond??[Ben10]

[Georredannea15]

still reading the rest but

2-A x 2-A x 2-A.... going infinitely is literally aleph 1

I will keep the answer short.

No. the product of infinite number of 2-A's is still 2-A, if you multiply a countable quantity by a countable quantity, it is still not uncountably infinite, I thought we had put all this behind us, but even though it has been fixed, we are still arguing...

But thank you anyway

 

[Hellformer]

I will keep the answer short.

No. the product of infinite number of 2-A's is still 2-A, if you multiply a countable quantity by a countable quantity, it is still not uncountably infinite, I thought we had put all this behind us, but even though it has been fixed, we are still arguing...

But thank you anyway

"Power Set: The set of all subsets of a given set X, commonly denoted as 2^X or P(X). An example is the power set of {1, 3, 4}, which equals {∅, {1}, {3}, {4), {1, 3}, {1, 4}, {3, 4}, {1, 3, 4}}
This hierarchy is then extended unto Aleph Numbers whose subscript can be defined as being correspondent to any higher number, be it finite or infinite: ℵ2, ℵ3, ℵ4... ℵω, ℵω+1, ℵω+2, and so on and so forth, with each succeeding cardinal being equal to the power set of the previous one"
The cardinality of a power set is equal to 2^X if the the cardinality of superset is X. And each higher infinity is the powerset of the lower infinity, Implying that:
ℵ1 = 2^(ℵ0)
ℵ2 = 2^(ℵ 1)
So on and so forth.
Baseline 2-A = ℵ0
So 2-A × 2-A × 2-A....(ℵ0 times)
= ℵ0^(ℵ0)
Which is numerically greater than 2^(ℵ0) due to equal power.

 

[Georredannea15]

"Power Set: The set of all subsets of a given set X, commonly denoted as 2^X or P(X). An example is the power set of {1, 3, 4}, which equals {∅, {1}, {3}, {4), {1, 3}, {1, 4}, {3, 4}, {1, 3, 4}}
This hierarchy is then extended unto Aleph Numbers whose subscript can be defined as being correspondent to any higher number, be it finite or infinite: ℵ2, ℵ3, ℵ4... ℵω, ℵω+1, ℵω+2, and so on and so forth, with each succeeding cardinal being equal to the power set of the previous one"
The cardinality of a power set is equal to 2^X if the the cardinality of superset is X. And each higher infinity is the powerset of the lower infinity, Implying that:
ℵ1 = 2^(ℵ0)
ℵ2 = 2^(ℵ 1)
So on and so forth.
Baseline 2-A = ℵ0
So 2-A × 2-A × 2-A....(ℵ0 times)
= ℵ0^(ℵ0)
Which is numerically greater than 2^(ℵ0) due to equal power.

The big question is;

What you are saying is all well and good, but what does it have to do with what is in the verse or basically what I am saying?

And I've made a small amendment to the OP, you can take a look at it because the relationship is not like that in the verse "although I don't think it would make much of a difference"

 

[Hellformer]

The big question is;

What you are saying is all well and good, but what does it have to do with what is in the verse or basically what I am saying?

Yes it does, I had given the same explanation as a final draft to Firestorm which you most likely didn't read. However this part wasn't even accepted because Firestorm said he will be discussing it with other staff members before further implementation but idk what made you hurry so much that you made a downgrade thread before it even got accepted.

And I've made a small amendment to the OP, you can take a look at it because the relationship is not like that in the verse "although I don't think it would make much of a difference"

Firestorm already handled it and the only thing which was accepted is Higher temporality instead of uncountably infinite universes. Firestorm has asked DontalkDT for helping so we better wait for the staffs ig?

 

[Georredannea15]

Firestorm already handled it and the only thing which was accepted is Higher temporality instead of uncountably infinite universes. Firestorm has asked DontalkDT for helping so we better wait for the staffs ig?

I thought "uncountable infinite timelines" were accepted along with hypertimeline in the previous revision. So only hypertimeline was accepted, huh?

Well, what I wanted anyway was to wait for DT, in fact when I asked Ultima what Firestorm suggested, his answer was no, I don't mind waiting a bit longer.

 

[Hellformer]

I thought "uncountable infinite timelines" were accepted along with hypertimeline in the previous revision. So only hypertimeline was accepted, huh?

Happy realization buddy, uncountably Infinite timelines weren't accepted and was instead put at halt. If it was really accepted then you would have seen Low 1-C rating for branching timelines

Well, what I wanted anyway was to wait for DT, in fact when I asked Ultima what Firestorm suggested, his answer was no, I don't mind waiting a bit longer.

I don't mind waiting a bit long either. Firestorm will discuss with DontTalkDT and reach a conclusion.

 

[Georredannea15]

Happy realization buddy, uncountably Infinite timelines weren't accepted and was instead put at halt. If it was really accepted then you would have seen Low 1-C rating for branching timelines

... Well, we've touched on that too...

I don't mind waiting a bit long either. Firestorm will discuss with DontTalkDT and reach a conclusion.

 

[Firestorm808]

I thought "uncountable infinite timelines" were accepted along with hypertimeline in the previous revision. So only hypertimeline was accepted, huh?

Well, what I wanted anyway was to wait for DT, in fact when I asked Ultima what Firestorm suggested, his answer was no, I don't mind waiting a bit longer.

Dude, the other thread was still open. As I said earlier, the conversation could have just continued there. Only one thing was accepted at the time. I'm still not sure why you needed an entirely new thread.

Also, what exactly did you ask Ultima? Was this a post on his wall or the vs discord server? I expected an answer with more of an explanation of what's missing and needed under the current context.

 

[Georredannea15]

Dude, the other thread was still open. As I said earlier, the conversation could have just continued there. Only one thing was accepted at the time. I'm still not sure why you needed an entirely new thread.

I explained why in there, actually. A bit long

Also, what did exactly you ask Ultima? Was this a post on his wall or the vs discord server? I expected an answer with more of an explanation of what's missing and needed under the current context.

I asked Ultima on Discord what you quoted above for DT, his answer was no

 

[Hellformer]

Dude, the other thread was still open. As I said earlier, the conversation could have just continued there. Only one thing was accepted at the time. I'm still not sure why you needed an entirely new thread.

Can this thread be locked so that we continue our discussion in the upgrade thread? Otherwise it seems too messed up.

 

[Georredannea15]

Can this thread be locked so that we continue our discussion in the upgrade thread? Otherwise it seems too messed up.

No need, Since Firestorm has already tagged DT, and given that a staff member already agreed with OP. Complicated? I don't think so. One's an upgrade, one's a downgrade revision.

 

[Hellformer]

No need, Since Firestorm has already tagged DT, and given that a staff member already agreed with OP. Complicated? I don't think so. One's an upgrade, one's a downgrade revision.

D̶o̶w̶n̶g̶r̶a̶d̶e̶ o̶f̶ s̶o̶m̶e̶t̶h̶i̶n̶g̶ w̶h̶i̶c̶h̶ h̶a̶s̶n̶'t̶ b̶e̶e̶n̶ a̶c̶c̶e̶p̶t̶e̶d̶ y̶e̶t̶
Let Firestorm decide if he wants to lock or not

 

[NXCHT.66]

following

 

[Georredannea15]

D̶o̶w̶n̶g̶r̶a̶d̶e̶ o̶f̶ s̶o̶m̶e̶t̶h̶i̶n̶g̶ w̶h̶i̶c̶h̶ h̶a̶s̶n̶'t̶ b̶e̶e̶n̶ a̶c̶c̶e̶p̶t̶e̶d̶ y̶e̶t̶
Let Firestorm decide if he wants to lock or not

It doesn't matter if it's finished or not, I don't want an active revision(with a staff agree) to be moved on to an already finished revision. I think that's reason enough

 

[Hellformer]

It doesn't matter if it's finished or not, I don't want an active revision with a staff member already agree to be moved on to an already finished revision. I think that's reason enough

Let Firestorm decide.

 

[Georredannea15]

Let Firestorm decide.

So? I think it is absurd to suggest this. I have already touched on many things in the OP and all we have to do now is wait for DT here.

Just waiting for DT should not be so complicated

 

[Hellformer]

So? I think it is absurd to suggest this. I have already touched on many things in the OP and all we have to do now is wait for DT here.

Just waiting for DT should not be so complicated

Then we better wait to see what happens

 

[Georredannea15]

Then we better wait to see what happens

I think just waiting for it would be the best option

 

[Georredannea15]

Bump??

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

I'm neutral on the hypertimeline downgrade (leaning somewhat on disagreeing), but I absolutely agree with the uncountably infinitely many timelines downgrade.

As I mentioned in the last thread, you typically need to prove that the number of timelines is such that there is a timeline created for every infinitesimal point in time, since time is continuous, and thus comprises a number of moments equal to a set of real numbers. Statements like "there is a timeline for every event" don't fulfill that scope, as Agnaa explains here:

MWI only upgrades to Low 1-C if we know that a branching timeline is created for every instant. Things like "for every being, of which an infinite number exist" or "for every event" don't qualify, since they'd only create a countably infinite amount.

Stop cherry picking arguments and making stuff on your own. Him saying 10 year old, 16 year old and 30 year old were simply examples given to NW Ben for the sake of understanding. I've given several other examples in the OP which weren't from these. And how do you expect Paradox to explain all the snapshots in an episode which barely lasts 22 minutes. AND NW Ben wasn't aware of this so it's obvious that he simply wanted him to understand instead of wasting time.

This sounds like a strawman, no one ever said they expect professor paradox to spend infinite time in a single episode listing off the amount of timelines. We just need evidence that there's an additional timeline corresponding with each instant in time, or that the process of the multiverse branching resembles infinite timelines, each of which individually have more infinite timelines, each of which individually have their own infinite timelines, ad infinitum resulting in an Infinity*Infinity*Infinity... ad infinitum quantity. A single "ad infinitum" statement without context is no different from any other 2-A cosmology. I'm not really seeing the evidence that would indicate uncountably infinitely many timelines.

 

[Georredannea15]

Bump??

 

[Georredannea15]

Bump

 

[Ghengiroo115]

I’m not good with more complex cosmology stuff so I’m not gonna speak on any of this, but I do have a question: if this goes through then will this downgrade a Ben 10 timeline back down to 2-B, possibly 2-A or will they still be solid 2-A?

 

[Hellformer]

I’m not good with more complex cosmology stuff so I’m not gonna speak on any of this, but I do have a question: if this goes through then will this downgrade a Ben 10 timeline back down to 2-B, possibly 2-A or will they still be solid 2-A?

Neither of it
This thread currently focuses on downgrading space beyond but Firestorm said we better wait for DT to respond to his question.
@Firestorm808 Is DT busy or something?

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

Now, regarding the hypertimeline, I'm still neutral leaning on disagree as I definitely have some contentions with the counter-arguments used.

In fact, as Ultima explains here and here, having an extra independent timeline or temporal dimension over a multiverse does not give you extra dimensionality (Even Agnaa says this too)

We don't consider adding an extra timeline to an infinite multiverse to make it Low 1-C.

We should not consider adding an extra dimension to an infinite stack to make it High 1-B+.

I find the inclusion of this argument odd, as what Ultima and Agnaa are discussing here has absolutely nothing to do with hypertimelines. It's about the significance of being "above baseline infinite" in terms of tierable size. To give full context of the conversation:

The new Low 1-A is transcendent of dimensions and cardinality entirely, but DontTalkDT questions the wording since an uncountably infinite number of dimensions or even Infinity +1 dimensions is technically "transcendent of dimensions," which leads to a debate of analogies over the likeness between adding 1 timeline to an already infinite multiverse and adding 1 dimension to an infinite hierarchy (both still being countably infinite).

This is irrelevant to the topic of hypertimelines. These quotes would at best be applicable against the uncountably infinite timelines argument, and I say "at best" since it doesn't even have to do with the uncountably infinite timelines arguments used (which I already disagree with).

Since both future and past are part of the same axis, time in one universe could flow in reverse to another universe and they could still have the same time axis as well.
So the flow of time in different universes can be very independent while they have the same time axis.

So a time dimension just encompassing multiple timelines should in itself indeed not suffice, as that could still go into the same direction (i.e. flow into the same future, just on a spatially greater scale).

These quotes have nothing to do with the arguments at hand either. The first one is addressing the argument of time flowing in reverse, backwards rather than forwards, as a justification for multiple temporal dimensions.

The second one is addressing the argument of timelines within timelines resulting in hypertimelines, which once again, isn't the argument being used as pretty much everyone who's proposed hypertimelines recently has at least understood the baseline fact that all-encompassing timelines in a vacuum aren't enough for Tier 1.

These are the actual justifications being used:

The Space Beyond is an infinite black void that extends past the boundaries of the universe and encompasses an infinite number of them.[4] The branching timelines exist inside the Space Beyond. This space separates Universes from each other and isn't accessible via general dimension crossing devices except by for the Map of infinity and the Chrono Navigator.

The Space Beyond has it's own higher temporal dimension than those of the branching timelines. In Ben 10 Omniverse Season 6 Episode 1, Vilgax uses the Chronosapien Time Bomb to destroy all timelines except No Watch Ben's Timeline. The Space Beyond was unaffected by the Chronosapien Time Bomb and the destruction of the timelines. It is not bound by the temporality of the branching timelines.

This is demonstrated by a Chronosapien's time powers. They only work with a higher temporal dimension existing, Clockwork was able to use his Time abilities with the Space Beyond's Temporal Dimension to reverse the Chronosapien Time Bomb's energy wave that spread across the Space Beyond and reverse the destruction of the other timelines.

During the previous standards revision, DontTalk had the following to say regarding a time dimension of a realm containing timelines.


Depends on context, but possibly yes. Although that hinges on the word time travel.

Like, fundamentally you could say that you have one timeline that spans multiversal space. In the beginning, that space is empty. Then you rewrite the past so that 3 universes already existed in the space (which is the same as creating 3 timelines). So you rewrite the timeline of the multiversal space.
Then you do the same again to add 5 more.

Technically, you could say you only spawned several more multiverse spanning timelines. Like, now a empty multiverse spanning timeline, a multiverse spanning timeline with 3 universes and a multiverse spanning timeline with 8 universes exist. The total number of timelines is only 11.
If you are able to travel between multiverse spanning timelines, you would also be able to switch back from the multiverse spanning timeline with 8 universes to the one without any universes/timelines.

However, if you do that specifically via time travel, then that could be a good indicator that you are actually dealing with an additional time dimension. Because that indicates that the progression of the creation of timelines is done within a (presumably continuous) flow of time and that time wouldn't be that of the regular past where those universes always existed.

Due to Clockwork's use of the higher time dimension, he rewinds time from 1 Timeline in the Realm back to many. Per DT, doesn't this demonstrate the higher time dimension flows in a different direction than the past or the future or any of the spatial directions?

The argument stems from this excerpt of the Tiering System FAQ:

Aside from direct statements, the easiest way to confirm that the line is comprised of uncountably infinitely many points/"snapshots" is to show that the development of the timelines is time-like. I.e. typically one would want a statement indicating that the alteration of the timelines is subject to its own flow of time, or that special time travel can go to prior versions of the timelines instead of the past. The keyword in the latter case is time travel, as that specifies that the action happens through movement through something like time. Note that such statements can be considered contradicted if the fiction specifies that new versions of the timeline, i.e. additional snapshots, are only created when the timeline is altered or similar.

Essentially, if time travel can be used to reach different states of a multiverse, like time traveling back to when there were 1,000,000 timelines rather than 5, that would be pretty explicit evidence for a higher temporal dimension. One instance that wouldn't qualify (DT mentioned this in response to a profile comment whose link I don't have) is if you time travel back to when a universe was a timeless void, as that could still require a singular axis, but that's irrelevant here. Ultima confirmed something like this on discord too:

I guess my last question is directed towards Firestorm, specifically as regards this statement:

Due to Clockwork's use of the higher time dimension, he rewinds time from 1 Timeline in the Realm back to many. Per DT, doesn't this demonstrate the higher time dimension flows in a different direction than the past or the future or any of the spatial directions?

This is demonstrated by a Chronosapien's time powers. They only work with a higher temporal dimension existing, Clockwork was able to use his Time abilities with the Space Beyond's Temporal Dimension to reverse the Chronosapien Time Bomb's energy wave that spread across the Space Beyond and reverse the destruction of the other timelines.

Is the multiverse restored by reversing time, or some kind of indirect temporal tampering with the CTB's energy? I think more context is needed since the latter is questionable for Low 1-C, while the former should absolutely qualify. As DT said, reaching different states of a multiverse only qualifies if it's performed through time travel. Otherwise, you could argue that you simply spawned different overarching timelines (one with an infinite multiverse, and one with a single universe), and reaching different states was achieved through dimensional travel to different overarching timelines altogether.

Technically, you could say you only spawned several more multiverse spanning timelines. Like, now a empty multiverse spanning timeline, a multiverse spanning timeline with 3 universes and a multiverse spanning timeline with 8 universes exist. The total number of timelines is only 11.
If you are able to travel between multiverse spanning timelines, you would also be able to switch back from the multiverse spanning timeline with 8 universes to the one without any universes/timelines.

 

[Hellformer]

Now, regarding the hypertimeline, I'm still neutral leaning on disagree as I definitely have some contentions with the counter-arguments used.


I find the inclusion of this argument odd, as what Ultima and Agnaa are discussing here has absolutely nothing to do with hypertimelines. It's about the significance of being "above baseline infinite" in terms of tierable size. To give full context of the conversation:

The new Low 1-A is transcendent of dimensions and cardinality entirely, but DontTalkDT questions the wording since an uncountably infinite number of dimensions or even Infinity +1 dimensions is technically "transcendent of dimensions," which leads to a debate of analogies over the likeness between adding 1 timeline to an already infinite multiverse and adding 1 dimension to an infinite hierarchy (both still being countably infinite).

This is irrelevant to the topic of hypertimelines. These quotes would at best be applicable against the uncountably infinite timelines argument, and I say "at best" since it doesn't even have to do with the uncountably infinite timelines arguments used (which I already disagree with).

These quotes have nothing to do with the arguments at hand either. The first one is addressing the argument of time flowing in reverse, forwards rather than backwards, as a justification for multiple temporal dimensions.

The second one is addressing the argument of timelines within timelines resulting in hypertimelines, which once again, isn't the argument being used as pretty much everyone who's proposed hypertimelines recently has at least understood the baseline fact that all-encompassing timelines in a vacuum aren't enough for Tier 1.

These are the actual justifications being used:


The argument stems from this excerpt of the Tiering System FAQ:

Essentially, if time travel can be used to reach different states of a multiverse, like time traveling back to when there were 1,000,000 timelines rather than 5, that would be pretty explicit evidence for a higher temporal dimension. One instance that wouldn't qualify (DT mentioned this in response to a profile comment whose link I don't have) is if you time travel back to when a universe was a timeless void, as that could still require a singular axis, but that's irrelevant here. Ultima confirmed something like this on discord too:

I guess my last question is directed towards Firestorm, specifically as regards this statement:


Is the multiverse restored by reversing time, or some kind of temporal indirect temporal tampering with the CTB's energy? I think more context is needed since the latter is questionable for Low 1-C, while the former should absolutely qualify. As DT said, reaching different states of a multiverse only qualifies if it's performed through time travel. Otherwise, you could argue that you simply spawned different overarching timelines (one with an infinite multiverse, and one with a single universe), and reaching different states was achieved through dimensional travel to different overarching timelines altogether.

@Firestorm808 What's your opinion regarding this?

 

[Hellformer]

Is the multiverse restored by reversing time, or some kind of temporal indirect temporal tampering with the CTB's energy? I think more context is needed since the latter is questionable for Low 1-C, while the former should absolutely qualify. As DT said, reaching different states of a multiverse only qualifies if it's performed through time travel. Otherwise, you could argue that you simply spawned different overarching timelines (one with an infinite multiverse, and one with a single universe), and reaching different states was achieved through dimensional travel to different overarching timelines altogether.

From my perspective, he simply Reversed time and his powers worked on the range of space beyond which should only be logical if the space beyond has a higher temporality. Since we know that Maltruant's (who's another Chronosapien) Power did not work in season 8 Episode 10 due to the lack of a higher temporal dimension existing. Does this make sense to you?

 

[Georredannea15]

Now, regarding the hypertimeline, I'm still neutral leaning on disagree as I definitely have some contentions with the counter-arguments used.


I find the inclusion of this argument odd, as what Ultima and Agnaa are discussing here has absolutely nothing to do with hypertimelines. It's about the significance of being "above baseline infinite" in terms of tierable size. To give full context of the conversation:

The new Low 1-A is transcendent of dimensions and cardinality entirely, but DontTalkDT questions the wording since an uncountably infinite number of dimensions or even Infinity +1 dimensions is technically "transcendent of dimensions," which leads to a debate of analogies over the likeness between adding 1 timeline to an already infinite multiverse and adding 1 dimension to an infinite hierarchy (both still being countably infinite).

This is irrelevant to the topic of hypertimelines. These quotes would at best be applicable against the uncountably infinite timelines argument, and I say "at best" since it doesn't even have to do with the uncountably infinite timelines arguments used (which I already disagree with).

These quotes have nothing to do with the arguments at hand either. The first one is addressing the argument of time flowing in reverse, forwards rather than backwards, as a justification for multiple temporal dimensions.

The second one is addressing the argument of timelines within timelines resulting in hypertimelines, which once again, isn't the argument being used as pretty much everyone who's proposed hypertimelines recently has at least understood the baseline fact that all-encompassing timelines in a vacuum aren't enough for Tier 1.

These are the actual justifications being used:


The argument stems from this excerpt of the Tiering System FAQ:

Essentially, if time travel can be used to reach different states of a multiverse, like time traveling back to when there were 1,000,000 timelines rather than 5, that would be pretty explicit evidence for a higher temporal dimension. One instance that wouldn't qualify (DT mentioned this in response to a profile comment whose link I don't have) is if you time travel back to when a universe was a timeless void, as that could still require a singular axis, but that's irrelevant here. Ultima confirmed something like this on discord too:

I guess my last question is directed towards Firestorm, specifically as regards this statement:


Is the multiverse restored by reversing time, or some kind of temporal indirect temporal tampering with the CTB's energy? I think more context is needed since the latter is questionable for Low 1-C, while the former should absolutely qualify. As DT said, reaching different states of a multiverse only qualifies if it's performed through time travel. Otherwise, you could argue that you simply spawned different overarching timelines (one with an infinite multiverse, and one with a single universe), and reaching different states was achieved through dimensional travel to different overarching timelines altogether.

I will summarize this in a few sentences when I have time

but the hypertimeline situation is not as you describe here

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

From my perspective, he simply Reversed time and his powers worked on the range of space beyond which should only be logical if the space beyond has a higher temporality. Since we know that Maltruant's (who's another Chronosapien) Power did not work in season 8 Episode 10 due to the lack of a higher temporal dimension existing. Does this make sense to you?

Wanna see what Firestorm has to say too, but I suppose this makes sense. I’ll have to disagree with the downgrade for now then.

 

[Georredannea15]

Now, regarding the hypertimeline, I'm still neutral leaning on disagree as I definitely have some contentions with the counter-arguments used.


I find the inclusion of this argument odd, as what Ultima and Agnaa are discussing here has absolutely nothing to do with hypertimelines. It's about the significance of being "above baseline infinite" in terms of tierable size. To give full context of the conversation:

The new Low 1-A is transcendent of dimensions and cardinality entirely, but DontTalkDT questions the wording since an uncountably infinite number of dimensions or even Infinity +1 dimensions is technically "transcendent of dimensions," which leads to a debate of analogies over the likeness between adding 1 timeline to an already infinite multiverse and adding 1 dimension to an infinite hierarchy (both still being countably infinite).

This is irrelevant to the topic of hypertimelines. These quotes would at best be applicable against the uncountably infinite timelines argument, and I say "at best" since it doesn't even have to do with the uncountably infinite timelines arguments used (which I already disagree with).

These quotes have nothing to do with the arguments at hand either. The first one is addressing the argument of time flowing in reverse, backwards rather than forwards, as a justification for multiple temporal dimensions.

The second one is addressing the argument of timelines within timelines resulting in hypertimelines, which once again, isn't the argument being used as pretty much everyone who's proposed hypertimelines recently has at least understood the baseline fact that all-encompassing timelines in a vacuum aren't enough for Tier 1.

These are the actual justifications being used:


The argument stems from this excerpt of the Tiering System FAQ:

Essentially, if time travel can be used to reach different states of a multiverse, like time traveling back to when there were 1,000,000 timelines rather than 5, that would be pretty explicit evidence for a higher temporal dimension. One instance that wouldn't qualify (DT mentioned this in response to a profile comment whose link I don't have) is if you time travel back to when a universe was a timeless void, as that could still require a singular axis, but that's irrelevant here. Ultima confirmed something like this on discord too:

I guess my last question is directed towards Firestorm, specifically as regards this statement:


Is the multiverse restored by reversing time, or some kind of indirect temporal tampering with the CTB's energy? I think more context is needed since the latter is questionable for Low 1-C, while the former should absolutely qualify. As DT said, reaching different states of a multiverse only qualifies if it's performed through time travel. Otherwise, you could argue that you simply spawned different overarching timelines (one with an infinite multiverse, and one with a single universe), and reaching different states was achieved through dimensional travel to different overarching timelines altogether.

First of all, I touched on everything in the OP, but this comes from manipulating time and rewinding time, an event that only happens in branching timelines, but DT says this about it

Also, when I DM'd Ultima about the Low 1-C requirement that Firestorm tagged and asked for DT above, he said "no" for that. So, I'm waiting for DT or Ultima or for both, it would be great if they could at least clarify it here.
In short, you can get hypertimeline with time travel and with contexts and some extra statements, I asked Ultima from the DC about it separately and he said the same thing, but the situation here has a completely different context


Because like I said, it's just rewinding an event that happened in branching timelines.

From my perspective, he simply Reversed time and his powers worked on the range of space beyond which should only be logical if the space beyond has a higher temporality. Since we know that Maltruant's (who's another Chronosapien) Power did not work in season 8 Episode 10 due to the lack of a higher temporal dimension existing. Does this make sense to you?

Also, causality in temporal dimensions has no contribution to dimensionality, and even if space beyond has an extra timeline of its own (which it doesn't), for it to be hypertimeline, perpendicularity has to be proved. But all Ben10 has is branching timelines and the temporal dimension that keeps them on the same axis. And branching timelines, or even having an overarching different temporal dimension, does not give you hypertimeline. He also stated this in Agnaa in the way I quoted above, and he also brought it up in DMC (btw I'm not doing whatabouism here, I just gave an example of how it doesn't)


So guys... I'm leaving...

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

So guys... I'm leaving...

???

 

[Firestorm808]

Is the multiverse restored by reversing time, or some kind of indirect temporal tampering with the CTB's energy? I think more context is needed since the latter is questionable for Low 1-C, while the former should absolutely qualify. As DT said, reaching different states of a multiverse only qualifies if it's performed through time travel. Otherwise, you could argue that you simply spawned different overarching timelines (one with an infinite multiverse, and one with a single universe), and reaching different states was achieved through dimensional travel to different overarching timelines altogether.

The latter. Through Time Manip, the CTB energy wave and its effects are literally reversed.