Ben 10 General Discussion Thread

[Greenshifter]

Rumours has it that he has been stealing @OMNIVERSAL-KING's Ben 10 scales since beginning.

AIIII

 

[Guruguru69]

OOF, it's true. I still need to watch... Secret of the Omnitrix. I'M A FRAUD!

(the best one)

 

[Guruguru69]

Green also hasn't finished Omniverse

 

[OMNIVERSAL-KING]

Rumours has it that he has been stealing @OMNIVERSAL-KING's Ben 10 scales since beginning.

What happened
Why you pinged me

 

[Reiner04]

What happened
Why you pinged me

 

[Greenshifter]

Is there anything contradictory that doesn't also apply to Relativistic?

Yes and no, it depends on how high you have the SoL in Ben 10...

But it's not his own power that makes him strong, it's Ascalon's. He would still have Ascalon's durability.

Only the sword itself has high durability, his armor is trash (ultimate tier).

The shield was able to hold for a couple seconds before fully shattering.

Honestly I'm surprised Gwen doesn't have a varies rating already with how infamously inconsistent her magic is.

Yes

George maybe (although I doubt he got that much weaker in just a few seconds)

I don't think particularly reacted to George's energy slices except when it was spatial cutting.

but not Chromastone. Hell his reaction to the power Gwen gave him made it sound like it was on a similar level as the blast from Dagon that he absorbed, which to me only makes sense if Dagon was holding back with his attack.

Gwen's just that broken my guy. Ben told her to hold back her power and she still gave Dagon a run for his money... Like why would Dagon hold back his attacks against the guy who previously defeated him?

My assumption was that holding back also applied to his Durability, given how quickly he went from being pushed back to being mostly unfazed by George and Chromastone's attack.

Why would he hold back his durability? Not even sure if he can do that due to his energy physiology. Chromastone just basically shot Dagon's own beam back at him and was then just doing chipping damage with the remainder of his energy.

My argument is that Ascalon hurting Dagon is because of hax and not AP.

Prove it, except for spatial cutting. Also Vilgax explicitly mentioned Ascalon's power together with Dagon's power as an impressive power source.

an artefact with zero relevance after the arc. I guess at this point I'm just being stubborn lol.

Excalibur should upscale from Ascalon, but that's a discussion for another day.

Although, would Tier 2 or higher Gwen contradict Mana and Magic lore? IIRC it all comes from Legerdomain which is a High 3-A realm, so wouldn't a Tier 2 magic attack not make any sense? Genuine question here.

1) Legerdomain doesn't have a set size limit, not one so low anyways and 2) Nah, mana can just be very condensed. Also Dagon is a mana user, so Gwen scaling to Dagon can never be the problem.

Tbh I haven't given it a proper look yet beyond skimming through the transcript. I just think any Feedback glazing is extremely based.

BASED

 

[Reiner04]

Yes and no, it depends on how high you have the SoL in Ben 10...

Well tbh, I barely know any fiction which hasn't contradicted their speed scaling in the worst way possible.

 

[Greenshifter]

Well tbh, I barely know any fiction which hasn't contradicted their speed scaling in the worst way possible.

Ben 10 does go above and beyond in its weirdness though.

 

[Reiner04]

Ben 10 does go above and beyond in its weirdness though.

explain bich.

 

[Greenshifter]

Malware almost leaving a star system in a few minutes despite "not having FTL capabilities" and the Time Beast freely running through time despite "being FTL".

 

[Reiner04]

Malware almost leaving a star system in a few minutes despite "not having FTL capabilities"

PIS

and the Time Beast freely running through time despite "being FTL".

We know being FTL is not enough for time travel, there must be a threshold.

 

[Greenshifter]

PIS

Malware eats PIS for breakfast.

We know being FTL is not enough for time travel, there must be a threshold.

Irl it can be but not in the way that Ben 10 characters do it pretty sure.

 

[Reiner04]

Malware eats PIS for breakfast.

Your mom.

Irl it can be but not in the way that Ben 10 characters do it pretty sure.

I know irl we can, but I'm saying in Ben 10 we can't, there must be some threshold beyond it. We also have techyons in ben 10 remember? A FTL particle that moves through time.

 

[Lynieryz]

Malware is the best character in the entire franchise.

 

[Greenshifter]

I know irl we can, but I'm saying in Ben 10 we can't, there must be some threshold beyond it. We also have techyons in ben 10 remember? A FTL particle that moves through time.

Fair I suppose?

Malware is the best character in the entire franchise.

Steaming hot take right there.

 

[Lynieryz]

Steaming hot take right there.

Nah, it's just the coldest fact possible.

 

[Ednaxel2]

Why did the high hyper thread get closed with no warning?

 

[Reiner04]

Why did the high hyper thread get closed with no warning?

Warning?

 

[Ednaxel2]

Malware is the best character in the entire franchise.

They carried the franchise wdym

 

[Ednaxel2]

Warning?

Like it just got closed out of nowhere

 

[Reiner04]

Like it just got closed out of nowhere

parallel paradox comic was decided to be non canon in 3 consecutive threads and ghost ship in particular has contradiction with main story line, so there was no point in keeping it open.

 

[OMNIVERSAL-KING]

parallel paradox comic was decided to be non canon in 3 consecutive threads and ghost ship in particular has contradiction with main story line, so there was no point in keeping it open.

Can we do a rejustification for parallel paradox being canon [because both parallel paradox and ghost ship are under same continuity]

 

[Ednaxel2]

parallel paradox comic was decided to be non canon in 3 consecutive threads and ghost ship in particular has contradiction with main story line, so there was no point in keeping it open.

had no idea there were 3 other thread about it lol

 

[Reiner04]

had no idea there were 3 other thread about it lol

I was the one who created them.

 

[Reiner04]

Can we do a rejustification for parallel paradox being canon [because both parallel paradox and ghost ship are under same continuity]

Both are non canon.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Yes and no, it depends on how high you have the SoL in Ben 10...

Oh right, the XLR8 vs Hex fight and the whole Time Beast weirdness.

Only the sword itself has high durability, his armor is trash (ultimate tier).

That seems a little silly given the armour is created by Ascalon, but I guess that wraps around to whether Ultimate Humungousaur scales to Ascalon or not. Regardless he still scales above Esoterica so Dagon sending them after him is still pretty insulting.

I don't think particularly reacted to George's energy slices except when it was spatial cutting.

George was able to noticeably push back Dagon with his energy slices while Chromastone was blasting his own energy back at him.

Gwen's just that broken my guy. Ben told her to hold back her power and she still gave Dagon a run for his money...

That's the thing though, Chromastone sending Gwen's power at Dagon didn't even move him.

Like why would Dagon hold back his attacks against the guy who previously defeated him?

Because before he was beaten while in a weaker form, whereas this time he's in a stronger form and knows he can win. We also know he doesn't take George that seriously regardless of how close they scale.

Why would he hold back his durability? Not even sure if he can do that due to his energy physiology.

To be honest idk if an energy being could do that either, but the reason he would do that is simply to toy with his enemies. Nothing would feel more hopeless than to significantly hurt him with a certain attack, only for your next attempt doing the exact same thing resulting in barely any damage.

Chromastone just basically shot Dagon's own beam back at him and was then just doing chipping damage with the remainder of his energy.

The thing though is that Chromastone's attack powered by some of Dagon's own energy caused him to shudder in pain, whereas when he had at least as much energy from Gwen and supporting attacks from George he couldn't even budge Dagon.

Prove it, except for spatial cutting.

Again it all wraps back around to whether Ultimate Humungousaur scales to Ascalon or not. I think he does, so the only way Ascalon could significantly hurt beings that scale massively above him would be through hax. You think he doesn't, so in that case Ascalon would simply scale to Dagon.

Also Vilgax explicitly mentioned Ascalon's power together with Dagon's power as an impressive power source.

It's a weapon that can warp reality. Maybe I'm wrong on this but I don't believe Dagon has any crazy reality warping feats or statements, so Ben would've had to channel Dagon's power through Ascalon in order to reshape the universe.

If I am wrong on this then I'll just concede right here, because that's a very good point if Dagon also had that kind of reality warping power. I get to scale Chromastone to Tier 2 let's goooooo

Excalibur should upscale from Ascalon, but that's a discussion for another day.

I completely forgot about Excalibur but true, and as far as I know there's no anti-feats.

1) Legerdomain doesn't have a set size limit, not one so low anyways and 2) Nah, mana can just be very condensed. Also Dagon is a mana user, so Gwen scaling to Dagon can never be the problem.

Legerdomain is described as a parallel world like Ben's dimension and the Null Void (both of which are High 3-A), but I guess that technically doesn't have to mean they're equal in size. But yeah I guess Mana being very condensed (plus how it's present across the entire universe) can explain that away regardless of the realm's size

Gwen and Dagon are different since all of Gwen's power comes from Mana whereas Dagon mainly uses a different kind of energy, but because of the other stuff I'm mainly just arguing semantics now.

 

[OMNIVERSAL-KING]

Guys! is ordinal infinity [physically existing] useful for high 1-B ?

 

[Greenshifter]

Oh right, the XLR8 vs Hex fight and the whole Time Beast weirdness.

Yes + Zs'Skayr dodging the sun gun + NRG.

That seems a little silly given the armour is created by Ascalon, but I guess that wraps around to whether Ultimate Humungousaur scales to Ascalon or not. Regardless he still scales above Esoterica so Dagon sending them after him is still pretty insulting.

Yes, though we know groups of people can overwhelm ultimate tiers. BFR'ing George is also an option.

George was able to noticeably push back Dagon with his energy slices while Chromastone was blasting his own energy back at him.

Ok, so the 2 combined could hurt him.

That's the thing though, Chromastone sending Gwen's power at Dagon didn't even move him.

So Gwen's power downscales from Dagon's.

Because before he was beaten while in a weaker form, whereas this time he's in a stronger form and knows he can win. We also know he doesn't take George that seriously regardless of how close they scale.

Yeah but what's the point of not using this power advantage?

To be honest idk if an energy being could do that either, but the reason he would do that is simply to toy with his enemies. Nothing would feel more hopeless than to significantly hurt him with a certain attack, only for your next attempt doing the exact same thing resulting in barely any damage.

Fair I suppose. Why is nobody commenting on this then though?

whereas when he had at least as much energy from Gwen

Only stated to be "a lot" or something similar, which implies Gwen isn't infinitely weaker than Dagon. Nothing more, nothing less.

Again it all wraps back around to whether Ultimate Humungousaur scales to Ascalon or not. I think he does, so the only way Ascalon could significantly hurt beings that scale massively above him would be through hax. You think he doesn't, so in that case Ascalon would simply scale to Dagon.

True.

It's a weapon that can warp reality. Maybe I'm wrong on this but I don't believe Dagon has any crazy reality warping feats or statements

Magic is mostly knowing the true names of things, Dagon exists everywhere and is thus nigh-omniscient. Verdona can warp reality. Do the maths yourself.

so Ben would've had to channel Dagon's power through Ascalon in order to reshape the universe.

IIRC Dagon's heart gives one the ability to rule the universe.

If I am wrong on this then I'll just concede right here, because that's a very good point if Dagon also had that kind of reality warping power. I get to scale Chromastone to Tier 2 let's goooooo

Yes

I completely forgot about Excalibur but true, and as far as I know there's no anti-feats.

Exactly

Legerdomain is described as a parallel world like Ben's dimension and the Null Void (both of which are High 3-A), but I guess that technically doesn't have to mean they're equal in size.

It is never stated to be a parallel world, I disagree with how Reiner currently argues the cosmology and this would just upgrade all these realms if it were true since parallel does mean equal in size for realms.

But yeah I guess Mana being very condensed (plus how it's present across the entire universe) can explain that away regardless of the realm's size

Yes, souls which are essentially condensed mana (One becomes one with everything in Gen Rex after he dies) are a thing after all.

Gwen and Dagon are different since all of Gwen's power comes from Mana whereas Dagon mainly uses a different kind of energy, but because of the other stuff I'm mainly just arguing semantics now.

Disagree, I think Dagon exclusively uses mana.

 

[Lynieryz]

Both are non canon.

Well, if both are not canon and are in the same continuity, wouldn't a profile for the comics be possible?

 

[Greenshifter]

Well, if both are not canon and are in the same continuity, wouldn't a profile for the comics be possible?

Another irrelevant Ben page?

 

[Guruguru69]

Another irrelevant Ben page?

not as irrelevant as your presence here

 

[Reiner04]

not as irrelevant as your presence here

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Magic is mostly knowing the true names of things, Dagon exists everywhere and is thus nigh-omniscient. Verdona can warp reality. Do the maths yourself.

IRC Dagon's heart gives one the ability to rule the universe.

Yeah I don't think I can argue with this.

I'm still not 100% sure on if Ascalon should scale to Dagon's true form or not, but I feel like at this point we're just gonna be repeating the same points over and over again so I'm mostly gonna stop now. However with this extra context in mind Ultimate Humungousaur scaling to Ascalon doesn't make much sense to me anymore.

Yes + Zs'Skayr dodging the sun gun + NRG.

Oh yeah, those ones too. Tbf fiction ignores this with stuff like electricity and sound as well, but there is still the Time Beast.

Yes, though we know groups of people can overwhelm ultimate tiers. BFR'ing George is also an option.

Fair

Fair I suppose. Why is nobody commenting on this then though?

Not sure

Only stated to be "a lot" or something similar, which implies Gwen isn't infinitely weaker than Dagon. Nothing more, nothing less.

His reaction to the actual power boost makes it sound like it's on a similar level to the one he just got from Dagon.

It is never stated to be a parallel world

It's implied to be so in Heroes United, where Ben says he goes to parallel worlds "all the time" at a point where he's only left his universe to go the Null Void, Legerdomain and the Forge of Creation. Obviously the Forge of Creation isn't parallel to Ben's dimension, so either "parallel world" is referring to the Null Void and Legerdomain as actually parallel or it's referring to all three of them and is just using "parallel world" as a synonym for realm or something.

this would just upgrade all these realms if it were true since parallel does mean equal in size for realms.

Would it though? If Mana is super condensed or whatever then Legerdomain would still just be High 3-A in size, right?

Yes, souls which are essentially condensed mana (One becomes one with everything in Gen Rex after he dies) are a thing after all.

Haven't watched Generator Rex outside of Heroes United so I didn't know about that lol. Mana is life energy though so it made sense to me even outside of that.

Disagree, I think Dagon exclusively uses mana.

I'm not sure if he does since Mana is usually pink in UAF, but eh it doesn't really matter much.

 

[Reiner04]

It is never stated to be a parallel world, I disagree with how Reiner currently argues the cosmology and this would just upgrade all these realms if it were true since parallel does mean equal in size for realms.

 

[Reiner04]

I still remember once I just randomly said it as a joke while talking to green that “technically one can argue that Rex dimension and Ben's dimension is in the same Universe then proceed to interpret that all mentioned dimension contextually must be inside Universe. And so busting a Universe is 2-B possibly 2-A” And then brushed off the joke went to take a nap, then after a brief moment realised “WTF, this is no joke, a great cook ong“, within 2 hrs then I created a thread to prove Rex dimension is inside Universe, within 4 hrs it got accepted then I went to create 2B Universe thread. Green had one counterarguement at that time that is "Rex dimension was called Universe", but I was confident that it wasn't ever so I was sure that this argument doesn't lack from any perspective and stands good, infact, as per Occam's razor, it's just how it should be.

 

[Greenshifter]

Yeah I don't think I can argue with this.

I'm still not 100% sure on if Ascalon should scale to Dagon's true form or not, but I feel like at this point we're just gonna be repeating the same points over and over again so I'm mostly gonna stop now. However with this extra context in mind Ultimate Humungousaur scaling to Ascalon doesn't make much sense to me anymore.

Glad we reached an understanding. Btw I'm fine with scaling Ultimate Humungousaur to the planet bust that Ascalon performed since Ben knew about it before the fight with George.

Oh yeah, those ones too. Tbf fiction ignores this with stuff like electricity and sound as well, but there is still the Time Beast.

True, maybe you can argue it's amplified light. I prefer to just argue the SoL is faster than irl in Ben 10.

His reaction to the actual power boost makes it sound like it's on a similar level to the one he just got from Dagon.

Similar level, sure. Exactly the same and thus the same result? No.

It's implied to be so in Heroes United, where Ben says he goes to parallel worlds "all the time" at a point where he's only left his universe to go the Null Void, Legerdomain and the Forge of Creation. Obviously the Forge of Creation isn't parallel to Ben's dimension, so either "parallel world" is referring to the Null Void and Legerdomain as actually parallel or it's referring to all three of them and is just using "parallel world" as a synonym for realm or something.

Well played, I think this used to be my argument before. Though I don't agree with the Null Void being a parallel world since it's embedded within Ben's universe.

Would it though? If Mana is super condensed or whatever then Legerdomain would still just be High 3-A in size, right?

Yeah I'm saying if you somehow managed to prove that it wasn't condensed then it'd just upgrade the size of the realms. Though this isn't entirely true since I have souls on a similar level to Dagon who scales to Ben's universe. So you'd end up with a contradiction.

Haven't watched Generator Rex outside of Heroes United so I didn't know about that lol.

OOF, that's what we call a skill issue my friend. This is a worse crime than not watching all of OV or Secret of the Omnitrix.

I'm not sure if he does since Mana is usually pink in UAF

Darkstar's mana is yellow.

but eh it doesn't really matter much.

It matters for the reality warping argument.

 

[Greenshifter]

I still remember once I just randomly said it as a joke while talking to green that “technically one can argue that Rex dimension and Ben's dimension is in the same Universe then proceed to interpret that all mentioned dimension contextually must be inside Universe. And so busting a Universe is 2-B possibly 2-A” And then brushed off the joke went to take a nap, then after a brief moment realised “WTF, this is no joke, a great cook ong“, within 2 hrs then I created a thread to prove Rex dimension is inside Universe, within 4 hrs it got accepted then I went to create 2B Universe thread. Green had one counterarguement at that time that is "Rex dimension was called Universe", but I was confident that it wasn't ever so I was sure that this argument doesn't lack from any perspective and stands good, infact, as per Occam's razor, it's just how it should be.

Still capping I see.

 

[Reiner04]

Still capping I see.

Still coping I see.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Glad we reached an understanding. Btw I'm fine with scaling Ultimate Humungousaur to the planet bust that Ascalon performed since Ben knew about it before the fight with George.

Yeah I think he should too especially since he tried and failed in base with his first encounter with George. You could also say the same thing about Malware’s Galvan B feat.

True, maybe you can argue it's amplified light. I prefer to just argue the SoL is faster than irl in Ben 10.

I believe it makes sense either way since I’m pretty sure the otherwise fastest travel speed feat we know of is slower than the tachyons. Having both arguments as options are good though imo.

Similar level, sure. Exactly the same and thus the same result? No.

It feels to me like it’s at least as much, but maybe it’s just Chromastone surprised Gwen had that kind of power or something.

Well played, I think this used to be my argument before. Though I don't agree with the Null Void being a parallel world since it's embedded within Ben's universe.

Yeah calling it a “parallel world” isn’t entirely accurate, but it’s one of two realms that Ben could be talking about and he uses the plural “worlds” so he kinda has to be talking about both.

Yeah I'm saying if you somehow managed to prove that it wasn't condensed then it'd just upgrade the size of the realms. Though this isn't entirely true since I have souls on a similar level to Dagon who scales to Ben's universe. So you'd end up with a contradiction.

Oh I see what you mean, yeah that’s true.

OOF, that's what we call a skill issue my friend. This is a worse crime than not watching all of OV or Secret of the Omnitrix.

I’ll get around to it eventually.

Darkstar's mana is yellow.

Damn it

It matters for the reality warping argument.

Wouldn’t just being able to control Mana be enough? You don’t necessarily have to be made of Mana to be a powerful magic user.

 

[Greenshifter]

Yeah I think he should too especially since he tried and failed in base with his first encounter with George.

Uhuh

You could also say the same thing about Malware’s Galvan B feat.

Nah because Malware didn't tank it.

I believe it makes sense either way since I’m pretty sure the otherwise fastest travel speed feat we know of is slower than the tachyons.

If flight speed counts then no.

It feels to me like it’s at least as much, but maybe it’s just Chromastone surprised Gwen had that kind of power or something.

Maybe Chromastone can't tell exactly how much power it is aside from "a lot"?

but it’s one of two realms that Ben could be talking about and he uses the plural “worlds” so he kinda has to be talking about both.

Or he visited more realms off-screen?

I’ll get around to it eventually.

Good

Damn it

Heck Hex's might be red even.

Wouldn’t just being able to control Mana be enough? You don’t necessarily have to be made of Mana to be a powerful magic user.

Sure, I merely meant that Dagon and Verdona must use the same power source for my argument to work.