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Ben 10 General Discussion Thread

It sucks how I have so many things I want to do regarding Ben 10 but can’t get myself in the mindset to do it. 2-A Ascalon level characters (or a downgrade to 4-C if that fails), a Clockwork rework, some magician profile reworks and of course my perpetually unfinished Eon rework are some things I have in mind.
 
It sucks how I have so many things I want to do regarding Ben 10 but can’t get myself in the mindset to do it. 2-A Ascalon level characters (or a downgrade to 4-C if that fails), a Clockwork rework, some magician profile reworks and of course my perpetually unfinished Eon rework are some things I have in mind.
Downgrade to 4C?
 
Downgrade to 4C?
After thinking things through I don’t think Galvan or Highbreed weaponry should directly scale to Element X or the Entropy Pump, based on a combination of availability and how they’re activated. I think the only one that they should directly scale to is Ma Vreedle’s sun destroying rocket. That’s not to say I think Ascalon isn’t stronger than Element X, just that there isn’t any evidence for it outside of universal scaling.

Also does the Entropy Pump even count as a “weapon”?
 
Wait, I just remembered we also use Milleous’ “destroyer of galaxies” title to justify 4-B. I guess that one could maybe stay then, but I definitely don’t agree with 4-A for the current reasonings given.
 
BTdubs, is the Hypertimeline 5D or 26-27D right now? There’s arguments that scale prime Eon to the Hypertimeline and arguably even the Chrono Navigator, so if the former is (possibly) 26-27D then that supports the latter argument.

I mean I might be self-sabotaging by pushing for even 5D for these characters, but meh
. Actually I changed my mind, trying to apply a bunch of possibilities for one character into an entire scaling chain is too messy for my liking.
 
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After thinking things through I don’t think Galvan or Highbreed weaponry should directly scale to Element X or the Entropy Pump, based on a combination of availability and how they’re activated.
I agree, especially if you consider that "being unstoppable" doesn't mean that they can tank a 4-B explosión, especially when they were so many ships, that even wiping out an entire Solar System wouldn't be enough to stop them
Also, we don't know if the Element X is considered during that statement, cuz Vulkanus and SixSix were the only crazy enough to even try something like that

I think the only one that they should directly scale to is Ma Vreedle’s sun destroying rocket.
I don't think so either, not only for the same reason as EX, but also because that was introduced during mid OV, it is possible that she didn't have access to that tech during UAF
Also does the Entropy Pump even count as a “weapon”?
Definitely not.
Especially when in the episode they say that "Nuking the place would make everything blow up", it's not like you can program the machine and make it explode, ot that it has that level of energy.
Wait, I just remembered we also use Milleous’ “destroyer of galaxies” title to justify 4-B. I guess that one could maybe stay then, but I definitely don’t agree with 4-A for the current reasonings given.
I don't think that works either
Because we know the Highbreeds are capable of "wiping out the Galaxy", but that was just a way to say they were going to eradicate all life on it, so I don't think they actually destroyed solar systems or something close to that
 
I agree, especially if you consider that "being unstoppable" doesn't mean that they can tank a 4-B explosión, especially when they were so many ships, that even wiping out an entire Solar System wouldn't be enough to stop them
The exact statement talks about the Highbreed having specifically too powerful weaponry that only the Galvan could counter, so I think the reasonable assumption (if them scaling to Element X was valid) would be that they had 4-B weapons and 4-B durability for their ships.

I don't think so either, not only for the same reason as EX, but also because that was introduced during mid OV, it is possible that she didn't have access to that tech during UAF
I mean Ma Vreedle has an incredibly infamous track record, is banned from and/or wanted in several systems and the Plumbers took her threat incredibly seriously. I honestly doubt she didn’t have the weapon prior to OV, however since you’re right in that it’s possible she doesn’t I suppose it could just be a possible 4-C rating.

Definitely not.
Especially when in the episode they say that "Nuking the place would make everything blow up", it's not like you can program the machine and make it explode, ot that it has that level of energy.
Yup, it blowing up when nuked is just a side effect from it being a wacky space-time gizmo.

I don't think that works either
Because we know the Highbreeds are capable of "wiping out the Galaxy", but that was just a way to say they were going to eradicate all life on it, so I don't think they actually destroyed solar systems or something close to that
The title of “destroyer of galaxies” seems more like a “blow everything up” thing than a “wipe out all life” thing to me, however again I can see why you think differently. Also I’m not sure if they even need 4-B levels of energy to accomplish it, considering how fast everything in Ben 10 is I feel like just stellar level weapons would be enough.

Overall I think at this point they shouldn’t be any higher than “possibly 4-C” or “possibly High 4-C”, again of course not counting the universal arguments. I do think this downgrade would be necessary though regardless of the outcome to the 2-A upgrade, as the Highbreed weaponry would be unaffected by it.
 
Silly me just forgot about the Mr. Baumann fish girlfriend episode again, where he literally gets Element X delivered to him so he can power her ship. I think 4-B might be back on the table for at least a possibly rating, as if it’s common enough for Mr. Baumann to get ahold of it then it shouldn’t be that bad to scale the Highbreed to it. Of course it all depends on if the aliens with access to it can also gain access to enough iron.
 
The exact statement talks about the Highbreed having specifically too powerful weaponry that only the Galvan could counter, so I think the reasonable assumption (if them scaling to Element X was valid) would be that they had 4-B weapons and 4-B durability for their ships.


I mean Ma Vreedle has an incredibly infamous track record, is banned from and/or wanted in several systems and the Plumbers took her threat incredibly seriously. I honestly doubt she didn’t have the weapon prior to OV, however since you’re right in that it’s possible she doesn’t I suppose it could just be a possible 4-C rating.


Yup, it blowing up when nuked is just a side effect from it being a wacky space-time gizmo.


The title of “destroyer of galaxies” seems more like a “blow everything up” thing than a “wipe out all life” thing to me, however again I can see why you think differently. Also I’m noerall I think at this point they shouldn’t be any higher than “possibly 4-C” or “possibly High 4-C”, again of course not counting the universal arguments. I do think this downgrade would be necessary though regardless of the outcome to the 2-A upgrade, as the Highbreed weaponry would be unaffected by it.

Silly me just forgot about the Mr. Baumann fish girlfriend episode again, where he literally gets Element X delivered to him so he can power her ship. I think 4-B might be back on the table for at least a possibly rating, as if it’s common enough for Mr. Baumann to get ahold of it then it shouldn’t be that bad to scale the Highbreed to it. Of course it all depends on if the aliens with access to it can also gain access to enough iron.
The problem wasn't the Element, but the Iron alloy
 
The problem wasn't the Element, but the Iron alloy
Yeah iron is very rare outside of Earth, though I guess the question is how rare. On the one hand Vulkanus went to Earth for iron on every Element X-related occasion, but on the other hand he literally tried to steal Element X from Mr. Baumann. So idk if he’s the best source of difficulty.

Though then again, we also gotta consider how Element X is used. You gotta melt down and purify a bunch of iron and then dunk Element X in to immediately cause the huge explosion, which I don’t think anyone is feasibly doing on the battlefield without doing it on a planet and blowing up all the adjacent ones. Like I guess you could technically hide out in an uninhabited system and have a couple soldiers kamikaze, but putting that much effort into taking out like one ship probably shouldn’t count as “standing a chance against the Highbreed”. RIP, and here I thought I figured out how to keep 4-B.
 
Also I just remembered that the Entropy Pump is single-use (meaning it literally can’t take out the entire galaxy-wide army) and the Highbreed invasion is a surprise attack (meaning both the Entropy Pump and Element X are unusable against them anyway).
 
Attack Potency: At least Dwarf Star level ([Misuse of its power can destroy entire planets]. Was used by Sir George to fight against the likes of Dagon and Ultimate Humungousaur, and Ben later used it to defeat Vilgax holding the full power of Dagon. As a powerful piece of Galvan technology and one of Azmuth’s greatest inventions, it should be superior to the Galvan weaponry [stated by Azmuth himself to be comparable to] Highbreed [weaponry]), likely at least Star level (Due to being both the “only” race capable of fighting off the Highbreed and the smartest beings in many galaxies, the Galvan’s top weaponry should be superior to [the sun-destroying rocket owned by Ma Vreedle])
 
Attack Potency: At least Dwarf Star level ([Misuse of its power can destroy entire planets]. Was used by Sir George to fight against the likes of Dagon and Ultimate Humungousaur, and Ben later used it to defeat Vilgax holding the full power of Dagon. As a powerful piece of Galvan technology and one of Azmuth’s greatest inventions, it should be superior to the Galvan weaponry [stated by Azmuth himself to be comparable to] Highbreed [weaponry]), likely at least Star level (Due to being both the “only” race capable of fighting off the Highbreed and the smartest beings in many galaxies, the Galvan’s top weaponry should be superior to [the sun-destroying rocket owned by Ma Vreedle])
Maybe if someone calcs the Petrosapien crystal, we could have a higher High 5-A or even a Low 4-C level.
 
Maybe if someone calcs the Petrosapien crystal, we could have a higher High 5-A or even a Low 4-C level.
Maybe, and Azmuth definitely knows about the crystal so that would be a solid rating. Unfortunately I ain’t a good person to ask in regards to calcs.
 
Maybe, and Azmuth definitely knows about the crystal so that would be a solid rating. Unfortunately I ain’t a good person to ask in regards to calcs.
And Vilgax, the one who literally says "The power of that crystal belongs to me!" And "I [don't] feel the power of the cristal" says that "He never felt such power" when he lifted Ascalon for the first time
 
You know how I said I was gonna rework Ben’s profile? Well I probably ain’t gonna actually do that because that’s too much work for little ol’ me, however I am gonna split Ben’s Ascalon stuff into its own key as his current second key is an absolute mess.

Tier: 10-B, up to 2-A with Omnitrix Self-Destruct Mode | 5-A, 1-B with Celestialsapien arm, up to 2-A with Omnitrix/Ultimatrix Self-Destruct Mode | At least High 5-A, likely at least 4-C, up to 2-A with Dagon’s Soul Absorption and Ultimatrix Self-Destruct Mode

Key: Original Series & Omniverse Flashbacks | Alien Force, Ultimate Alien and Omniverse | The Ultimate Knight/Wielding Ascalon (pls let me be fancy)

Attack Potency: Human level, up to Multiverse level+ with Omnitrix Self-Destruct Mode | Large Planet level (Could restrain and harm Simian, who, as an Arachnachimp, should be comparable to Spidermonkey and that could harm him. Should be comparable to Gwen. Was able to keep up with Attea and Pierce), Hyperverse level with Celestialsapien arm (Should be comparable to the Celestialsapien sword that can cut through the Contumelia's extra-dimensional barrier, which is meant to protect them from the Annihilarrgh), up to Multiverse level+ with Omnitrix/Ultimatrix Self-Destruct Mode | At least Dwarf Star level, likely at least Star level (Wields Ascalon, which he used to defeat Vilgax and take Dagon’s power from him), up to Multiverse level+ with Dagon’s Soul Absorption and Ultimatrix Self-Destruct Mode

Speed: Average Human, up to Infinite attack speed via Omnitrix Self-Destruction | Massively FTL+ combat and reaction speed (Can keep up with Simian), higher with the Time Cycles (Much faster than and blitzed a Time Beast, which Rook stated moved faster than light), Immeasurable when fueled by Time Beast Eggs (Can travel into the timestream, which is a point in space-time where all past, present and future timelines meet and intersect), up to Infinite attack speed via Omnitrix/Ultimatrix Self-Destruction | Massively FTL+ combat and reaction speed (Reacted to and deflected attacks from Dagonax), up to Infinite attack speed via Omnitrix/Ultimatrix Self-Destruction

Lifting Strength: Average Human | At least Class 5 (Can grapple with Simian) | At least Class Z (Possesses Dagon’s power)

Striking Strength: Human level | Large Planet level, Hyperverse level with Celestialsapien arm | At least Dwarf Star level, likely at least Star level, up to Multiverse level+ with Dagon’s Soul Absorption

Durability: Human level | Large Planet level (Can take hits from the Esoterica. Took a casual kick from Ultimate Aggregor. Survived an attack from a machine that could harm Big Chill. Should be comparable to Gwen), Hyperverse level with Celestialsapien arm (It could protect Skurd from the Annihilarrgh) | At least Dwarf Star level, likely at least Star level (Is clad in armor formed by Ascalon, which could withstand Dagonax’s attacks), up to Multiverse level+ with Dagon’s Soul Absorption

Stamina: Unknown (Depends on what type of Alien he currently is, or in his original form)

Range: Standard Melee Range physically; Several Meters with DNA scanning, Intergalactic with DNA recombination, Multiversal+ with Omnitrix/Ultimatrix Self-Destruct Mode | Standard Melee Range physically, Planetary with Ascalon‘s powers, Interdimensional with Dagon‘s powers, Multiversal+ with Ultimatrix Self-Destruct Mode

All changes are very self-evident, such as:
  • An Ascalon-dedicated key as it looked awful all huddled up with the other stuff.
  • Adding the Omnitrix SD to kid Ben (AKA literally the Ben that threatened the 2-A stuff lol).
  • Giving Ascalon Ben an actual Class Z justification.
  • Moving the SD stuff to the end of each key as it flowed better.
 
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iirc the “Atomix can make a sun with work” statement is currently accepted on the wiki as “Atomix can create a sun over time”, which should be at least 226 Ronnatons if we assume the transformation lasts up to 10 minutes. However reading this again I don’t think he’s actually saying “with work” to mean “over time”, but rather “Atomix can’t do it effortlessly, but if he puts in some effort he can”. In other words it’s not that it would take Atomix 10 or so minutes to do it, but rather it would take around as long as the mini sun just with a lot more focus on it.

What are everyone else’s thoughts on this? Am I cooking or am I reading something that isn’t there?
 
iirc the “Atomix can make a sun with work” statement is currently accepted on the wiki as “Atomix can create a sun over time”, which should be at least 226 Ronnatons if we assume the transformation lasts up to 10 minutes.
The problem with that is thsg creating a sun using radiation (the same method that was used for his mini sun) only gives High 5-A+ (around 5 Quettatons) results, not 4-C.
However reading this again I don’t think he’s actually saying “with work” to mean “over time”, but rather “Atomix can’t do it effortlessly, but if he puts in some effort he can”. In other words it’s not that it would take Atomix 10 or so minutes to do it, but rather it would take around as long as the mini sun just with a lot more focus on it.

What are everyone else’s thoughts on this? Am I cooking or am I reading something that isn’t there?
Agree 100% Rouleau talks abot effort, not time.
Especially when the question says that Ben did it casually.
 
The problem with that is thsg creating a sun using radiation (the same method that was used for his mini sun) only gives High 5-A+ (around 5 Quettatons) results, not 4-C.
Ah well that’s a bit unfortunate (and also means an over time version of the feat is even less impressive), still an upgrade though so that’s good. Wonder if there’s any way to upscale Atomic-X to Low 4-C or not, as he’d only need around a 1.5x boost.
 
Ah well that’s a bit unfortunate (and also means an over time version of the feat is even less impressive), still an upgrade though so that’s good. Wonder if there’s any way to upscale Atomic-X to Low 4-C or not, as he’d only need around a 1.5x boost.
I don't think so.
Probable Atomix and Ascalon leven charecters would be around High 5-A+.
 
I don't think so.
Probable Atomix and Ascalon leven charecters would be around High 5-A+.
Unfortunately I don’t think there’s a way to get High 5-A+ for Ascalon level characters based off of Atomix’s statement, as all the statements that put Malgax so high include scaling him above the Ascalon level characters. I think they’ll be vaguely over 1.46 Quettatons via the Highbreed Warship calc.
 
Unfortunately I don’t think there’s a way to get High 5-A+ for Ascalon level characters based off of Atomix’s statement, as all the statements that put Malgax so high include scaling him above the Ascalon level characters. I think they’ll be vaguely over 1.46 Quettatons via the Highbreed Warship calc.
Oh, yes, you're right

But maybe the Petrosapien crystal can help with anything
 
I think what I’m gonna do is just attempt to pass the downgrade first, and then if necessary make a thread to get Atomix to High 5-A+.
 
Hey btw, the strongest weapon of the supposedly 4-B Incurseans is the Conquest Ray. Guess who upscales from the Conquest Ray, and guess who downscales from the upscaler?

If the Milleous title is still considered valid evidence for tier 4 after my thread then we need to have a serious chat about this downscaling business.
 
Btw, uh… I think I’m done? Somehow I basically finished this entire thread in just one night. Where’s this kind of drive when I actually desire it?!
 
Hey btw, the strongest weapon of the supposedly 4-B Incurseans is the Conquest Ray. Guess who upscales from the Conquest Ray, and guess who downscales from the upscaler?

If the Milleous title is still considered valid evidence for tier 4 after my thread then we need to have a serious chat about this downscaling business.
And that's why (among other things) i dont take that statement seriously.
 
And that's why (among other things) i dont take that statement seriously.
What, you don’t vibe with Perfect Cell level Stinkfly? That’s crazy.

What’s crazier is that some people unironically scale Ben 10 characters this high for somehow even dumber reasons.
 
What, you don’t vibe with Perfect Cell level Stinkfly? That’s crazy.

What’s crazier is that some people unironically scale Ben 10 characters this high for somehow even dumber reasons.
'upchuck ate the subenergy, which is 20x times the sun Uochuck 4-C+"
"He's one of Ben's weaker aliens, so that makes everyone upscale that"
 
'upchuck ate the subenergy, which is 20x times the sun Uochuck 4-C+"
"He's one of Ben's weaker aliens, so that makes everyone upscale that"
Tbf if you do scale the sub-energy to High 4-C then Upchuck scales with regular blasts, meaning everyone upscales anyway. That’s partly how Ben 10 characters got High 6-A/5-C.
 
I have released the creature into the wild:

 
Yeah iron is very rare outside of Earth, though I guess the question is how rare. On the one hand Vulkanus went to Earth for iron on every Element X-related occasion, but on the other hand he literally tried to steal Element X from Mr. Baumann. So idk if he’s the best source of difficulty.

Though then again, we also gotta consider how Element X is used. You gotta melt down and purify a bunch of iron and then dunk Element X in to immediately cause the huge explosion, which I don’t think anyone is feasibly doing on the battlefield without doing it on a planet and blowing up all the adjacent ones. Like I guess you could technically hide out in an uninhabited system and have a couple soldiers kamikaze, but putting that much effort into taking out like one ship probably shouldn’t count as “standing a chance against the Highbreed”. RIP, and here I thought I figured out how to keep 4-B.
In Omniverse just coming into contact with Iron is enough for it to explode, Ben made Vulkanus and a tiny bity of old Element X come in contact with Iron by accident due to an attack and it immediately exploded.
 
In Omniverse just coming into contact with Iron is enough for it to explode, Ben made Vulkanus and a tiny bity of old Element X come in contact with Iron by accident due to an attack and it immediately exploded.
Yup, but it doesn’t cause the system busting unless you have all that prep for it.
 
Silly me just forgot about the Mr. Baumann fish girlfriend episode again, where he literally gets Element X delivered to him so he can power her ship. I think 4-B might be back on the table for at least a possibly rating, as if it’s common enough for Mr. Baumann to get ahold of it then it shouldn’t be that bad to scale the Highbreed to it. Of course it all depends on if the aliens with access to it can also gain access to enough iron.
I think that's less that it's common and more about Baumann's skill as a merchant that he's able to get it, which is shown during the whole episode, he even managed to make a deal with Azmuth to get him to make him a suit, ******* Azmuth.
 
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