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Ben 10 Classic Series Revision Thread Part 1

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Anyways I’m not sure if the Ascalon destroys a big planet statement is still valid or not. I’m gonna assume it isn’t, if it is then then that scaling ends at Ultimate Way Big, nothing below him.

George did not use the full power of Ascalon against Dagon’s herald Vilgax. George’s energy slices (with travel time, the ones where he actually sliced Dagon probably ignore dura and are Reality Warping) staggered Dagon about as much as Chromastone’s reflected energy beam. One of Dagon’s energy beams killed George. Thus if we assume George used the full power of Ascalon against Dagon’s herald then we can scale Dagon’s Herald’s AP to it’s full power (via his dura) and thus come to the conclusion that any attack by Dagon’s Herald that hurt George would actually kill him, which didn’t happen, thus proof by contradiction.

George’s dura would probably still scale to Ultimate Humungousaur tho and his AP would vary between Ultimate Humungousaur and superior to Dagonax.

Evil Way Big was stated by Psyphon to be the strongest being in the galaxy. Atomix’s species live in the Milky Way (all original Omnitrix aliens are from the Milky Way, citation still needed) and are comparable in power to Atomix (The leader of the Arachnichimps was a match for Ultimate Spidermonkey, thus regular aliens can reach the level of Ben’s aliens. The Fulmini getting destroyed by the Rust Bucket in the Reboot might be a problem for this reasoning tho). Thus Way Big = Evil Way Big > Atomix’s species < Atomix = 4-C. A small problem might be that Celestialsapiens are stated to live in the galaxy (we should probably discard that for this particular scaling) and that Albedo went outside of the galaxy to get To’Kustar DNA.

New scaling: Humungousaur << Ultimate Aggregor < Ultimate Kevin >= Ultimate Humungousaur = Sir George’s dura <= Dagon’s Herald Vilgax >= Eatle (who Zamasu will argue is an outlier to keep up with ultimates pretty sure)

4-C = Atomix > Atomix’s species < Evil Way Big = Way Big (if we assume they are exactly equal) << Ultimate Way Big < Dagon (>> George’s energy slices = Chromastone’s absorption) <= Dagonax < Full power Ascalon
 
Greenshifter said:
Anyways I’m not sure if the Ascalon destroys a big planet statement is still valid or not. I’m gonna assume it isn’t, if it is then then that scaling ends at Ultimate Way Big, nothing below him.

George did not use the full power of Ascalon against Dagon’s herald Vilgax. George’s energy slices (with travel time, the ones where he actually sliced Dagon probably ignore dura and are Reality Warping) staggered Dagon about as much as Chromastone’s reflected energy beam. One of Dagon’s energy beams killed George. Thus if we assume George used the full power of Ascalon against Dagon’s herald then we can scale Dagon’s Herald’s AP to it’s full power (via his dura) and thus come to the conclusion that any attack by Dagon’s Herald that hurt George would actually kill him, which didn’t happen, thus proof by contradiction.

George’s dura would probably still scale to Ultimate Humungousaur tho and his AP would vary between Ultimate Humungousaur and superior to Dagonax.

Evil Way Big was stated by Psyphon to be the strongest being in the galaxy. Atomix’s species live in the Milky Way (all original Omnitrix aliens are from the Milky Way, citation still needed) and are comparable in power to Atomix (The leader of the Arachnichimps was a match for Ultimate Spidermonkey, thus regular aliens can reach the level of Ben’s aliens. The Fulmini getting destroyed by the Rust Bucket in the Reboot might be a problem for this reasoning tho). Thus Way Big = Evil Way Big > Atomix’s species < Atomix = 4-C. A small problem might be that Celestialsapiens are stated to live in the galaxy (we should probably discard that for this particular scaling) and that Albedo went outside of the galaxy to get To’Kustar DNA.

New scaling: Humungousaur << Ultimate Aggregor < Ultimate Kevin >= Ultimate Humungousaur = Sir George’s dura <= Dagon’s Herald Vilgax >= Eatle (who Zamasu will argue is an outlier to keep up with ultimates pretty sure)

4-C = Atomix > Atomix’s species < Evil Way Big = Way Big (if we assume they are exactly equal) << Ultimate Way Big < Dagon (>> George’s energy slices = Chromastone’s absorption) <= Dagonax < Full power Ascalon
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Agreed
 
DemonicDude said:
Atomix Should be simply 4-C he uses Nuclear attacks in striking punches as well.
Click to expand...

Could someone run by me why we're giving this to Atomix based on something that's "possible" for Gravattack to do over some unknown timeframe, and based on WoG instead of an objective feat we see him actually accomplish.

Something that's literally just a name for "really big black hole", and considering Gravattack's black holes were deemed as unrealistic on his calc I don't see why we'd tier him based off of that.

There's a lot I take issue with on the thread, I'm mostly just having a lot of trouble finding time to explain it and debate it b/c of various Tier 2 revisions I'm evaling rn.
 
@Dargoo_Faust the 4-C feat is Atomix being capable of creating a sun per WoG.

I also debunked Gravattack’s black holes being unrealistic.

edit: Apparently all message walls are gone on the old forum, that's annoying ...
Anyways it doesn't matter that much whether Gravattack's black hole is legit or not in the show when WoG says he can possibly create a quasar which is a real black hole.
 
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Only the strongest of aliens should be high 7-A since the feat comes from Diamondhead. He’s the only alien that actually stood a chance against AF Vilgax. Vilgax also consistently gets the upper hand on Humungousaur and Humungousaur stomps a lot of the cast. I’ll make a list of who scales to what later but we need tier 7 feats that scale to low tiers.
 
Greenshifter said:
the 4-C feat is Atomix being capable of creating a sun per WoG.
Click to expand...

Over an unknown timeframe and with great effort, and is also a feat that exceeds practically everything we see Atomix pull in the show.

I'm also a bit concerned with the sheer volume of WoG being used in this CRT and how the questions being asked to the author are phrased as if they came from battleboarders, as if he's being badgered with questions about feats that we don't see happen in the actual show.

Greenshifter said:
Anyways it doesn't matter that much whether Gravattack's black hole is legit or not in the show when WoG says he can possibly create a quasar which is a real black hole.
Click to expand...

I have no clue what you mean by this. A quasar is just a name for an extremely large and massive black hole. What it's called does not change whether or not it is realistic, so it really does matter whether the black holes he creates in the show are realistic or not. Interested to see your debunks though.

DemonicDude said:
These ones
Click to expand...

Those look nothing like real black holes nor do the seem to act like real black holes.

Not like Atomic X really needs that as a feat, though.
 
Zamasu_Chan said:
@Dargoo_Faust What are your thoughts on the High 7-A calc?
Click to expand...
Where the heck was it stated Grandpa Max was 6 foot 7, for starters? Didn't realize the guy was that huge.

The WoG also contradicts how far apart the two planets are portrayed to be in the show, tbh. Earth looks like this from the Moon, Jupiter looks like this from Ganymede, while Galvan Prime looks like this from Galvan B.
 
Dargoo_Faust said:
Those look nothing like real black holes nor do the seem to act like real black holes.
Click to expand...
Here's a better pic from OV_s06_e02:


After the CTB is reabsorbed they have all the Omnitrix users take their turn to punch Vilgax.
However they pull a Cartoon_Physics so after the attacks Vilgax just falls to his knees before they Finish Him™
 
Electro7101 said:
However they pull a Cartoon_Physics so after the attacks Vilgax just falls to his knees before they Finish Him™
Click to expand...
I'd call that unrealistic for black holes, then, yeah. At least, it looks even more fake when compared to Gravattack's feat and that's really saying something, since they're emanating light.
 
Dargoo_Faust said:
Where the heck was it stated Grandpa Max was 6 foot 7, for starters? Didn't realize the guy was that huge.

The WoG also contradicts how far apart the two planets are portrayed to be in the show, tbh. Earth looks like this from the Moon, Jupiter looks like this from Ganymede, while Galvan Prime looks like this from Galvan B.
Click to expand...
I revised my calc, also I did a calc on Max's and Rook's height who are around 6'9, with Diamondhead's height being around 7'6. Also Ben 10 since the first series, hasn't really had the distances of planets and moons looking correctly; Earth from the Moon, Dead Earth from the Moon, Moon from Earth, and I'm pretty sure there has been more instances. So using that as a means of the distance of Galvan Prime and Galvan B not being greater than the distance of the Earth and the Moon is sort of flawed. Also if the distance between Galvan Prime and Galvan B was as short in one of those other calcs, it would have crashed into Galvan Prime like Duncan said. I would be fine if we use the distance between the Earth and the Moon rather than the distance between Jupiter and Ganymede, I just used the distance between Jupiter and Ganymede as a high end distance and it would be a stretch using that as the distance (since it wasn't really said that the distance is that big, I just assumed based off the Ganymede statement as a means of the planet and moon being comparable to Jupiter and Ganymede), but the distance between the Earth and the Moon should be fine. I could remove the Jupiter and Ganymede distance part of the calc if needed or wanted.
 
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DemonicDude said:
I have gotten permission from Antvasima and with Firestorm who agrees with on this little project. I had feeling when it comes to images you were gonna say something but at the very least I can do is allow you to pick 3 or 4 images of your choice and no touching on my boy eatle
Click to expand...
That doesn't answer my question.
They're all inferior, the blue backgrounds are ugly, circles are better than squares, and I don't really care about Eat Beetle.
 
EpicCookie12342 said:
Also Ben 10 since the first series, hasn't really had the distances of planets and moons looking correctly; Earth from the Moon, Dead Earth from the Moon, Moon from Earth, and I'm pretty sure there has been more instances
Click to expand...
I mean, all of those can be explained by POV and framing, as you can make the Earth look fairly large from the moon with the right cameras and even then I did some quick math on those scans assuming a full, human POV and all of them are at least within the same order of magnitude (angizsing gives me ~ 100,000 km while the distance between the Earth and Moon IRL is 384400 km) as the distance between the Earth and Moon. Meanwhile even when viewed from space Galvan Prime is still extremely close to Galvan B, something you can't really do with the Earth/Moon with camera tricks.

Galvan Prime is utterly massive from any given POV on or off Galvan B, and even if you increased that distance by an entire order of magnitude it'd still not be remotely close to the distance between the Earth and Moon.

I get that artists shouldn't be expected to draw correct proportions for celestial bodies, but at the same time you get to a point where even when we account for that kind of error there's no way Galvan Prime and Galvan B are that far apart just based on portrayals in the show.

EpicCookie12342 said:
Also if the distance between Galvan Prime and Galvan B was as short in one of those other calcs, it would have crashed into Galvan Prime like Duncan said.
Click to expand...

The only issue that arises from assuming they're far closer than the Earth and Moon is actually one Duncan seems to have constructed himself - that Galvan B is far larger than our own moon. However if we're assuming Galvan Prime is the same size as Earth this just isn't reflected in any of the visual portrayals in the show - Galvan B is an artificial satellite and there's no real reason to assume it's far larger than the Moon based on twitter WoGs when the show repeatedly showcases the celestial body as being smaller in scope than the moon, and far closer to Galvan Prime than the moon is to the Earth even from Outer Space POVs.

The distance in the show matters more because it's also the distance we actually see Diamondhead get punched; even if we take Duncan's word seriously and the animation team placed them closer than they actually are, that just adds doubt to any other aspect of the calc since we know aspects of the portrayal of the feat are not reflective of the story. If they made the planets visually closer just to make it more visually appealing, what's to say they didn't also shorten the timeframe for similar reasons, as an example?
 
Lollipop_The_King said:
That doesn't answer my question.
They're all inferior, the blue backgrounds are ugly, circles are better than squares, and I don't really care about Eat Beetle.
Click to expand...
Circles looks out of placed far too merged/connected to each other, what you saw were only original aliens, AF/UA is a nice change in phase you're gonna grow to like it. Either way I'll ask firestorm nothing is completed or officially decided.
 
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image0.png


image0.jpg
 
All planets in the solar system fit between the moon and earth. Dargoo already gave a better comparison when it came to comparing the distances.
 
Dargoo_Faust said:
The only issue that arises from assuming they're far closer than the Earth and Moon is actually one Duncan seems to have constructed himself - that Galvan B is far larger than our own moon. However if we're assuming Galvan Prime is the same size as Earth this just isn't reflected in any of the visual portrayals in the show - Galvan B is an artificial satellite and there's no real reason to assume it's far larger than the Moon based on twitter WoGs when the show repeatedly showcases the celestial body as being smaller in scope than the moon, and far closer to Galvan Prime than the moon is to the Earth even from Outer Space POVs.
Click to expand...
Nobody is making the assumption that Galvan Prime is the same size as the Earth, only you are. Galavan B also isn't artificial it was a natural satellite to Galvan Prime which was said in the show, so there isn't anything debunking it being bigger than our Moon. Galvan B was also never shown to be smaller in scope than the Moon, it is just your assumption that Galvan Prime is the same size as the Earth, which is flawed.
 
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Dargoo_Faust said:
Over an unknown timeframe and with great effort, and is also a feat that exceeds practically everything we see Atomix pull in the show.
Click to expand...
Maximum is probably 10 minutes due to transformation time limit and Way Big’s (High) 5-A feat(s) back it up. Atomix also exhausted his energy reserves in his fight with Malgax. There’s also Atomix being stated to be capable of blowing up a planet in a tie-in comic that might be canon.


Dargoo_Faust said:
I'm also a bit concerned with the sheer volume of WoG being used in this CRT and how the questions being asked to the author are phrased as if they came from battleboarders, as if he's being badgered with questions about feats that we don't see happen in the actual show.
Click to expand...
Every WoG that i will bring up to scale from, I can back up and couple to stuff that happens in the show. The OP is more of a compilation of WoG currently.

I don’t have a lot of time today, I’ll elaborate tomorrow. I’m not getting too involved with calcs themselves being wrong tho, I still disagree with Zamasu’s supposed problem with the scaling.
 
Zamasu_Chan said:
Only the strongest of aliens should be high 7-A since the feat comes from Diamondhead. He’s the only alien that actually stood a chance against AF Vilgax. Vilgax also consistently gets the upper hand on Humungousaur and Humungousaur stomps a lot of the cast. I’ll make a list of who scales to what later but we need tier 7 feats that scale to low tiers.
Click to expand...
So basically Humungousaur is a mid tier now? DH just outskilled him till he used a finishing move which does have higher AP. Freaking Eon scales to DH, how hard could it be to scale that to Humungousaur and the mid-tiers? Swampfire also clearly put up a fight against Vilgax and Four Arms is still superior to DH and will always be (future aliens) and WoG states that Full Size Humungousaur > Four Arms.

Also who did Humungousaur stomp?
 
EpicCookie12342 said:
Nobody is making the assumption that Galvan Prime is the same size as the Earth, only you are. Galavan B also isn't artificial it was a natural satellite to Galvan Prime which was said in the show, so there isn't anything debunking it being bigger than our Moon. Galvan B was also never shown to be smaller in scope than the Moon, it is just your assumption that Galvan Prime is the same size as the Earth, which is flawed.
Click to expand...
We assume a generic alien planet to be Earth-sized until it's demonstrated that it's larger or smaller through the media itself. Do we have any statements of size for Galvan Prime, by any chance?

Wasn't Galvan B nuked alongside Galvan Prime by the Highbreeds before the events of Omniverse, then reconstructed by the Galvans? That's sort of what I was reffering to when I meant "artificial".

Still doesn't really handwave any of the major issues with the calc though.

Greenshifter said:
Maximum is probably 10 minutes due to transformation time limit and Way Big’s (High) 5-A feat(s) back it up. Atomix also exhausted his energy reserves in his fight with Malgax. There’s also Atomix being stated to be capable of blowing up a planet in a tie-in comic that might be canon.
Click to expand...
I mean, the question was just asking if it was possible period for Atomix to do that, not Ben using Atomix with the typical restrictions of the Omnitrix.

And I mean, there's a huge difference between planetary feats and star feats.

If we took the 10 minutes timeframe, though:

Baseline 4-C is 1.36x10^32 J, 10 minutes contains 600 seconds, that would be 2.2666667e+29 J/s, which is High 5-A, IDK if that's an upgrade from where Atomix already sits at.

Greenshifter said:
So basically Humungousaur is a mid tier now? DH just outskilled him till he used a finishing move which does have higher AP. Freaking Eon scales to DH, how hard could it be to scale that to Humungousaur and the mid-tiers? Swampfire also clearly put up a fight against Vilgax and Four Arms is still superior to DH and will always be (future aliens) and WoG states that Full Size Humungousaur > Four Arms.
Click to expand...
Diamondhead is inconsistent to say the least, like most of Ben's bruisers. Humongasaur goes from getting OHKO'd by Vilgax to having a fair matchup vs. Vilgax later. Diamondhead goes from T-posing on Vilgax to being trounced by some relatively minor villains later.

I feel like for most of the top-tier physical aliens like Humungousaur, Four Arms, and Diamondhead scaling between them is fine.
 
Zamasu_Chan said:
All planets in the solar system fit between the moon and earth. Dargoo already gave a better comparison when it came to comparing the distances.
Click to expand...
@Zamasu_Chan

Look, humans are good for Human things:
Depicting distance between houses and people, buildings, cars, things like that.

Depicting the distance between celestial bodies?
No, most of everything you see on mainstream media has the scale of the planets completely wrong.
https://youtu.be/Kj4524AAZdE?t=37


@Dargoo_Faust It is unfair to force realistic optics on things that escape Human intuition.
And before anyone says something about "they could've just looked it up" please
https://youtu.be/RFnSmcfKWQo?t=340

I don't think you can scratch the timeframe because the distance is depicted unrealistically.
 
Dargoo_Faust said:
We assume a generic alien planet to be Earth-sized until it's demonstrated that it's larger or smaller through the media itself. Do we have any statements of size for Galvan Prime, by any chance?

Wasn't Galvan B nuked alongside Galvan Prime by the Highbreeds before the events of Omniverse, then reconstructed by the Galvans? That's sort of what I was reffering to when I meant "artificial".
Click to expand...
Even if it is artificial it doesn’t necessarily mean it can’t be bigger than the Moon. We have the statements of Galvan B’s size, which thus means Galvan Prime is a lot bigger than Earth. Also I’m not sure if it was ever really said if Galvan B was destroyed as well, but most likely it was, nice catch on that, but your premise on Galvan B being smaller than the Moon still doesn’t stand
 
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