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@Ryukama Well, logically, it would take knowledge of how absolutely everything worked and fit together before in order to recreate it in every detail. However, comicbook logic recurrently expects us to overlook such details, and treat it like magic.
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what's left to talk about?
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Again, storybook logic generally tends to treat high level reality warping and omniscience, or nigh-omniscience as separate abilities.
We cannot start to automatically give all such characters this type of intelligence ratings without any references to their existence.
However, if there are references to the Alien X species possessing enormously enhanced awareness and intelligence to nigh-omniscient degrees, we can obviously use that, but automatically scaling a certain type of power to intelligence seems extremely uncertain.
Also, watch your tone please.
We cannot start to automatically give all such characters this type of intelligence ratings without any references to their existence.
However, if there are references to the Alien X species possessing enormously enhanced awareness and intelligence to nigh-omniscient degrees, we can obviously use that, but automatically scaling a certain type of power to intelligence seems extremely uncertain.
Also, watch your tone please.
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so what's left to do before the stats are added?
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Estnac
no it's not just gag charaters it's just something that happens aften your making it take longer to get the stats on pleas just let the thred finshe and after make a new one.
no it's not just gag charaters it's just something that happens aften your making it take longer to get the stats on pleas just let the thred finshe and after make a new one.
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@Estnac.
Please refrain from any snarky behavior in the future.
Please refrain from any snarky behavior in the future.
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1 many charaters have recreated the univeres from nothing and most of them have no showing of omniscient
2 your just making it take longer for the upgrades for alean X to take place if you feel so strongly he is omniscient then make a new thread about it.
2 your just making it take longer for the upgrades for alean X to take place if you feel so strongly he is omniscient then make a new thread about it.
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Look, all that I am saying is that we tend to treat reality warping and nigh-omniscience as separate powers, unless we get explicit statements. We are not going to budge regarding this issue. Sorry.
Anyway, could we return to the subject of how we should appropriately word the motivations for the Alien X/Galactic Gladiator ratings? Then some staff members can insert them, and we can finally close this thread.
Anyway, could we return to the subject of how we should appropriately word the motivations for the Alien X/Galactic Gladiator ratings? Then some staff members can insert them, and we can finally close this thread.
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I'm still really lost, but where's the evidence that Alien X is stronger than the Chronosapien Time Bomb?
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I think it's because the beings of their species are described as having the greatest power of the universe by both Azmuth and Paradox (This has access to a 2-A power source).
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@Promestein, the whole point of this is to discuss Alien X's power level here does arguments about that stuff isn't against a rule since we're disccusing rules. However, I reread all my posts here and I said nothing about Alien X being omnipotent. So if anything, you're being a nuissance to me for accusing me of something I didn't do.
@Antvisma, I'm not doing "No Limits Fallacy." I'm actually basing what I'm saying off of feats and actual powers of Alien X.
And I'm going to say it again: I never mentioned anything about Alien X being omnipotent. So don't accuse me of it.
@Antvisma, I'm not doing "No Limits Fallacy." I'm actually basing what I'm saying off of feats and actual powers of Alien X.
And I'm going to say it again: I never mentioned anything about Alien X being omnipotent. So don't accuse me of it.
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@Dontae
"I wouldn't waste my time arguing about the true power of Alien X on this site if I were you. Well, I at least wouldn't try arguing about making him Tier 0."
"Even though you, possibly other users, and I know Alien X is truly up there, the people on this site refuse to accept WoG"
In the first quote you imply that we are not reasonable and therefore advise against arguing for Alien X's power raise to tier 0. Your next statement directly states that you believe that Alien X "is truly up there" (in reference to tier 0) and how we refuse to accept WoG (in regards to the omniverse/omnipotent statement). Do not say you did not say anything about Alien X's omnipotence when I can just Cntl-F and put in your name to find it on the first post.
You absolutely engaged in no-limits fallacy. You argue for a massive tier raise because of a feat that is not clearly defined or WoG that isn't supported otherwise.
"I wouldn't waste my time arguing about the true power of Alien X on this site if I were you. Well, I at least wouldn't try arguing about making him Tier 0."
"Even though you, possibly other users, and I know Alien X is truly up there, the people on this site refuse to accept WoG"
In the first quote you imply that we are not reasonable and therefore advise against arguing for Alien X's power raise to tier 0. Your next statement directly states that you believe that Alien X "is truly up there" (in reference to tier 0) and how we refuse to accept WoG (in regards to the omniverse/omnipotent statement). Do not say you did not say anything about Alien X's omnipotence when I can just Cntl-F and put in your name to find it on the first post.
You absolutely engaged in no-limits fallacy. You argue for a massive tier raise because of a feat that is not clearly defined or WoG that isn't supported otherwise.
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- #176
Dontae, you said you believe Alien X can do anything. Being able to do anything = Omnipotence. Omnipotence means " able to do anything" "all powerful". Don't pretend you weren't saying this.
Quoating your post "Celestialsapiens being able to do anything as long as their personalities agree on it. We both know this has been shown and proven in the show,"
Press CTRL+F and type in the bolded, you said this.
You don't use the word Omnipotence, but you are describing precisely omnipotence. You are fooling no one here. STOP mentioning this nonsense in this thread, you're not getting anywhere with " he can do anything the personalities agree on", make another thread about Alien X omnipotence. Don't debate about that here further please. Saying Alien X can do anything is a no limits fallacy, until you see him do literally anything it will always be a fallacy and should never be an argument.
Quoating your post "Celestialsapiens being able to do anything as long as their personalities agree on it. We both know this has been shown and proven in the show,"
Press CTRL+F and type in the bolded, you said this.
You don't use the word Omnipotence, but you are describing precisely omnipotence. You are fooling no one here. STOP mentioning this nonsense in this thread, you're not getting anywhere with " he can do anything the personalities agree on", make another thread about Alien X omnipotence. Don't debate about that here further please. Saying Alien X can do anything is a no limits fallacy, until you see him do literally anything it will always be a fallacy and should never be an argument.
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So what's the word on this we still trying find a good way to word the motivations of their ratings?
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Hey guys.
Forgive me if im in the dark about all of this as I don't know everything that happened here in this thread. I had some thingsto take care of before so I really couldnt come on to the wiki. So like I said, Im not aware of everything here, but after skimming through some of it, I assume the main thing here is that Alien X is getting upgraded to 2-A for being stronger than the Chronosapian Time Bomb and evidence such as "strongest in the universe" is being used to support it. Along with Infinite Speed being wrapped in the same package.
Now Im not saying I disagree with either thing being given for Alien X, but I do have some issues regarding the justifications for both. Lets start with the Bomb.
For the bomb, from what I know about how we rate and scale characters, someone who becomes stronger than a weapon isnt neccesarily higher than what the weapon is able to destroy, especially if they destroy it through other methods. From what the wiki says,Ben only used Clockworks time hax to reverse the effects of the bomb before it could start destroying everything , which isnt AP.
Following this, if we were to scale characters to a certain tier just because they can surpass the power of a weapon, then im sure there would be a lot of characters who'd need tier changing too and here are some examples I can think of:
- Naruto, Sasuke, Toneri and, well, any major character in the high-god tier would easily become Moon Level since they're clearly stronger than the Raikage's Chakra Cannon, which is powerful enough to destroy the entire moon to bits on its own.
-Goku, Beerus, and more from Xenoverse anyway would be given major upgrades since literally anyone in DB whos at least notable can destroy the Time Vault, something that keeps all existing timelines in Xenoverse in check. Without it, all timelines would be erased.
And to further explain this, I would like to use [http:// Jorgen Von Strangle ] from Fairy Odd parents as a more notable example who, unlike Alien X, is different and could explain my argument.
Now Jorgen is currently listed as a 2-C for being able to easily create and stop a bomb powerful enough to destroy both Timmy and Jimmy's verses. Normally, he'd be in the same boat as Alien-X, but the difference here between the 2 is that Jorgen not only created the bomb, but he also easily stopped it even upon its activation when it released the 2-C tier energy. With his fairy power. So in this case, Jorgen didnt destroy the bomb itself (which is just a weapon) but he stopped the energy it released which would make him 2-C upon actually stopping. But in this case, Alien X is the opposite. (I can be wrong so please correct me) He never overpowered any explosion or blast from the time bomb, much less the time bomb itself. He just used Clockwork to reverse it. And unlike Jorgen who created the bomb from his own individual power, the Chronosapien Time Bomb was more than likely built by someone in the verse, likely Maltrunt for giving Vilgax one in the first place . So its not even a weapon who someone's power created.
Another issue I see here in the justifications is "the strongest in the universe" comment. Using a reason like this will more than likely bring up issues. There are many characters stated to be the strongest in their verse yet it doesnt mean they are even Universe Level. For example, Frieza (pre-RoF) and Majin Buu as those are ones that are at the top of my heads. In addition since Ben 10 is a multiverse, why would the ones who made this claim limit Alien X's power to the scope of just one universe? For a 2-A, it would make much better sense for them to be refered to as the strongest in existence (unless im just interpretting this wrong).
Finally, the Infinite speed thing.
I can understand why Alien X would get it since naturally living in an environemt with erased time can qualify for Infinite Speed. But the problem I see here is that Ben's Alien X wouldnt be the only one who would get this. Literally every Celestialsapen, even the baby ones who can't even move an inch for tens of thousands of years while developing and is unable to use any of their power, being basically defenseless, would get Infinite Speed. And IIRC, not all Celestalsapians are at the same level of capability such as Bens. The Average Celestialsapain is only stated to have speeds so great they can travel entire Solar Systems in less than a milosecond. While this is definitely a very impressive level of speed, it should be rather childsplay for any Celestialsapian if they had Infinite Speed. Basically being able to travel even galaxies, let alone universes in an instant.
Again, I was not here for most of the thread so if im wrong on anything or everything, please address this to me and i'll concede. And this doesnt mean I disagree with any of the suggested upgrades, I just saw issues with their justifications is all.
Forgive me if im in the dark about all of this as I don't know everything that happened here in this thread. I had some thingsto take care of before so I really couldnt come on to the wiki. So like I said, Im not aware of everything here, but after skimming through some of it, I assume the main thing here is that Alien X is getting upgraded to 2-A for being stronger than the Chronosapian Time Bomb and evidence such as "strongest in the universe" is being used to support it. Along with Infinite Speed being wrapped in the same package.
Now Im not saying I disagree with either thing being given for Alien X, but I do have some issues regarding the justifications for both. Lets start with the Bomb.
For the bomb, from what I know about how we rate and scale characters, someone who becomes stronger than a weapon isnt neccesarily higher than what the weapon is able to destroy, especially if they destroy it through other methods. From what the wiki says,Ben only used Clockworks time hax to reverse the effects of the bomb before it could start destroying everything , which isnt AP.
Following this, if we were to scale characters to a certain tier just because they can surpass the power of a weapon, then im sure there would be a lot of characters who'd need tier changing too and here are some examples I can think of:
- Naruto, Sasuke, Toneri and, well, any major character in the high-god tier would easily become Moon Level since they're clearly stronger than the Raikage's Chakra Cannon, which is powerful enough to destroy the entire moon to bits on its own.
-Goku, Beerus, and more from Xenoverse anyway would be given major upgrades since literally anyone in DB whos at least notable can destroy the Time Vault, something that keeps all existing timelines in Xenoverse in check. Without it, all timelines would be erased.
And to further explain this, I would like to use [http:// Jorgen Von Strangle ] from Fairy Odd parents as a more notable example who, unlike Alien X, is different and could explain my argument.
Now Jorgen is currently listed as a 2-C for being able to easily create and stop a bomb powerful enough to destroy both Timmy and Jimmy's verses. Normally, he'd be in the same boat as Alien-X, but the difference here between the 2 is that Jorgen not only created the bomb, but he also easily stopped it even upon its activation when it released the 2-C tier energy. With his fairy power. So in this case, Jorgen didnt destroy the bomb itself (which is just a weapon) but he stopped the energy it released which would make him 2-C upon actually stopping. But in this case, Alien X is the opposite. (I can be wrong so please correct me) He never overpowered any explosion or blast from the time bomb, much less the time bomb itself. He just used Clockwork to reverse it. And unlike Jorgen who created the bomb from his own individual power, the Chronosapien Time Bomb was more than likely built by someone in the verse, likely Maltrunt for giving Vilgax one in the first place . So its not even a weapon who someone's power created.
Another issue I see here in the justifications is "the strongest in the universe" comment. Using a reason like this will more than likely bring up issues. There are many characters stated to be the strongest in their verse yet it doesnt mean they are even Universe Level. For example, Frieza (pre-RoF) and Majin Buu as those are ones that are at the top of my heads. In addition since Ben 10 is a multiverse, why would the ones who made this claim limit Alien X's power to the scope of just one universe? For a 2-A, it would make much better sense for them to be refered to as the strongest in existence (unless im just interpretting this wrong).
Finally, the Infinite speed thing.
I can understand why Alien X would get it since naturally living in an environemt with erased time can qualify for Infinite Speed. But the problem I see here is that Ben's Alien X wouldnt be the only one who would get this. Literally every Celestialsapen, even the baby ones who can't even move an inch for tens of thousands of years while developing and is unable to use any of their power, being basically defenseless, would get Infinite Speed. And IIRC, not all Celestalsapians are at the same level of capability such as Bens. The Average Celestialsapain is only stated to have speeds so great they can travel entire Solar Systems in less than a milosecond. While this is definitely a very impressive level of speed, it should be rather childsplay for any Celestialsapian if they had Infinite Speed. Basically being able to travel even galaxies, let alone universes in an instant.
Again, I was not here for most of the thread so if im wrong on anything or everything, please address this to me and i'll concede. And this doesnt mean I disagree with any of the suggested upgrades, I just saw issues with their justifications is all.
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- #180
First of all DONT use the wiki as facts, when the wiki is obviously wrong about alot of thigns such as Celestialsapiens being omnipotent which can't be proven. What they said about what Clockwork did is based on NOTHING and contradicts what is shown.
Secondly no, Ben didn't use Alien X to reverse the damage of the time bomb, not sure why you keep mixing Clockwork and Alien X up. Thirdly, he didn't reverse anything, he recreated the entire multiverse, there's no comment of Ben reversing anything.
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3z4971_ben-10-omniverse-s06e02-and-then-there-was-ben_fu
Watch from 15:50 - 16:30
There's no comment on him reversing anything, and how would he reverse something that doesn't exist in the first place?
4th
In the Ben 10 Alien force episode "Vengeance of Vilgax and Salman part 1 " season 3 episode 1 at 20:44 Azmuth says the Omnitrix is the most powerful weapon in the universe. 'Meaning the omnitrix> time bomb and Chrono-Navigator. Alien X is the most powerful alien in the Omnitrix. How is a weapon that is stated to be more powerful than the timebomb + the chrono navigator not scaled to both?
Azmuth knows of the power of The Chrono Navigator, which is more powerful than the timebomb, since it can destroy all timelines without leaving anything in all of existence behind.
5th: Why would destroying a weapon make someone scale to it? Ben destroyed the Anihilaarg with his human foot, so did his partner Rook , that doesn't make human Ben or Rook universal, and that is NOT how I justify anything. I never made any comment about anyone destroying any weapon, so not sure why you keep bringing this up?
6th:
Naruto Sasuke and Toneri are never stated to be possessing the most power in the universe or ever compared to the canon, so it's not at all the same here. The same with DBZ and the Time Vault. You can't scale them to it, because they are never compared to the weapon in anyway, that is just speculation.
7th
"And unlike Jorgen who created the bomb from his own individual power, the Chronosapien Time Bomb was more than likely built by someone in the verse, likely Maltrunt for giving Vilgax one in the first place . So its not even a weapon who someone's power created."
You like the rest of us have no evidence that the timebomb was made by someone's power or built so why even bring that up? You are basing this on nothing. You are mixing Clockwork with Alien X, 2 different aliens. Maltruent must have built it and not made it due to his power, because he gave one to Vilgax, how does that even make sense? Like I'm failing to understand the logic behind this statement? How does that disprove him making it due to his power alone, and it's still just baseless speculation, and it was never my argument in the first place, so it's entirely irrelevant.
BTW, Alien X DID make the timebomb out of nothing, when he recreated the universe. He also recreated the Chrono-Navigator, which is more powerful than the timebomb, and he did both when time and space didn't even exist in the first place.He created the universe and everything in it, stated multiple times in multiple episodes. So either way you look at it, he and the other of his species scales to both weapons.
8th:
Literally nobody was justifying any scaling due to Alien X being the strongest in the universe. CTRL +F and see for yourself.
I'm justifying because Paradox states it's the source of the universe's greatest power, as well as the Omnitrix being the most powerful weapon in the universe as well as the author stating Alien X can destroy the Omniverse. Keep in mind Paradox has a weapon that can destroy all of existence and has seen the destruction of the multiverse.
9th
About the speed thing:
Every Celestiansapien in Ben 10 has the EXACT same power, which is why Aggregor wanted to absorb the power of a baby Celestialsapien rather than an adult due to the split personalities thing. What does a baby Celestialsapien not being able to move an inch for thousands of years in a dimension that has no time even prove?
Regardless, It's never stated the baby Celestialsapien can't move an inch for thousands of years. And this also implies that it would take him longer to move an inch, which would still give him infinite speed since time does not exist in the first place. Whatever the case, it's never said or implied in any episode or by the author. And the Baby Celestialsapien not moving doesn't disprove others being infinitely fast, since it could simply choose to not move despite only having 1 personality.
Ben has never been to the forge of creation with Alien X, every other Celestialsapien in existence has.
Alien X is at the same level as every other Celestialsapien, look at his fight with Gladiator.
It is never stated in the series ever that the average Celestialsapien can travel the solar systems in seconds, you're gonna have to source this.
The reason why they put this in the Ben 10 wiki, is because they are assuming it took milliseconds for Ben as Alien X and the Gladiator to move from 1 solar system to another, which is not stated or implied ever in the episode. No timeframe is given or implied, and neither is any distance. Any number given is baseless.
Or perhaps they mean when Starbeard teleported Ben to another solar system which has no timeframe or any implication of the distance, and is not even speed in the first place. Also baseless.
In any case, the "average Celestialsapien that moved between solar systems in seconds" with no given timeframe and distance, is Alien X, whom you admit is infinitely fast, so yeah it is entirely false. Alien X is an average CS.
Finally, I also have a calc of Alien X that puts him at 366 Quadrillion X FTL so this solar system thing is obviously wrong.
Secondly no, Ben didn't use Alien X to reverse the damage of the time bomb, not sure why you keep mixing Clockwork and Alien X up. Thirdly, he didn't reverse anything, he recreated the entire multiverse, there's no comment of Ben reversing anything.
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3z4971_ben-10-omniverse-s06e02-and-then-there-was-ben_fu
Watch from 15:50 - 16:30
There's no comment on him reversing anything, and how would he reverse something that doesn't exist in the first place?
4th
In the Ben 10 Alien force episode "Vengeance of Vilgax and Salman part 1 " season 3 episode 1 at 20:44 Azmuth says the Omnitrix is the most powerful weapon in the universe. 'Meaning the omnitrix> time bomb and Chrono-Navigator. Alien X is the most powerful alien in the Omnitrix. How is a weapon that is stated to be more powerful than the timebomb + the chrono navigator not scaled to both?
Azmuth knows of the power of The Chrono Navigator, which is more powerful than the timebomb, since it can destroy all timelines without leaving anything in all of existence behind.
5th: Why would destroying a weapon make someone scale to it? Ben destroyed the Anihilaarg with his human foot, so did his partner Rook , that doesn't make human Ben or Rook universal, and that is NOT how I justify anything. I never made any comment about anyone destroying any weapon, so not sure why you keep bringing this up?
6th:
Naruto Sasuke and Toneri are never stated to be possessing the most power in the universe or ever compared to the canon, so it's not at all the same here. The same with DBZ and the Time Vault. You can't scale them to it, because they are never compared to the weapon in anyway, that is just speculation.
7th
"And unlike Jorgen who created the bomb from his own individual power, the Chronosapien Time Bomb was more than likely built by someone in the verse, likely Maltrunt for giving Vilgax one in the first place . So its not even a weapon who someone's power created."
You like the rest of us have no evidence that the timebomb was made by someone's power or built so why even bring that up? You are basing this on nothing. You are mixing Clockwork with Alien X, 2 different aliens. Maltruent must have built it and not made it due to his power, because he gave one to Vilgax, how does that even make sense? Like I'm failing to understand the logic behind this statement? How does that disprove him making it due to his power alone, and it's still just baseless speculation, and it was never my argument in the first place, so it's entirely irrelevant.
BTW, Alien X DID make the timebomb out of nothing, when he recreated the universe. He also recreated the Chrono-Navigator, which is more powerful than the timebomb, and he did both when time and space didn't even exist in the first place.He created the universe and everything in it, stated multiple times in multiple episodes. So either way you look at it, he and the other of his species scales to both weapons.
8th:
Literally nobody was justifying any scaling due to Alien X being the strongest in the universe. CTRL +F and see for yourself.
I'm justifying because Paradox states it's the source of the universe's greatest power, as well as the Omnitrix being the most powerful weapon in the universe as well as the author stating Alien X can destroy the Omniverse. Keep in mind Paradox has a weapon that can destroy all of existence and has seen the destruction of the multiverse.
9th
About the speed thing:
Every Celestiansapien in Ben 10 has the EXACT same power, which is why Aggregor wanted to absorb the power of a baby Celestialsapien rather than an adult due to the split personalities thing. What does a baby Celestialsapien not being able to move an inch for thousands of years in a dimension that has no time even prove?
Regardless, It's never stated the baby Celestialsapien can't move an inch for thousands of years. And this also implies that it would take him longer to move an inch, which would still give him infinite speed since time does not exist in the first place. Whatever the case, it's never said or implied in any episode or by the author. And the Baby Celestialsapien not moving doesn't disprove others being infinitely fast, since it could simply choose to not move despite only having 1 personality.
Ben has never been to the forge of creation with Alien X, every other Celestialsapien in existence has.
Alien X is at the same level as every other Celestialsapien, look at his fight with Gladiator.
It is never stated in the series ever that the average Celestialsapien can travel the solar systems in seconds, you're gonna have to source this.
The reason why they put this in the Ben 10 wiki, is because they are assuming it took milliseconds for Ben as Alien X and the Gladiator to move from 1 solar system to another, which is not stated or implied ever in the episode. No timeframe is given or implied, and neither is any distance. Any number given is baseless.
Or perhaps they mean when Starbeard teleported Ben to another solar system which has no timeframe or any implication of the distance, and is not even speed in the first place. Also baseless.
In any case, the "average Celestialsapien that moved between solar systems in seconds" with no given timeframe and distance, is Alien X, whom you admit is infinitely fast, so yeah it is entirely false. Alien X is an average CS.
Finally, I also have a calc of Alien X that puts him at 366 Quadrillion X FTL so this solar system thing is obviously wrong.
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Its kinda funny how they keep saying its the most powerful weapon in the universe instead of saying the multiverse since the Time Bomb can destroy infinite timelines(but miss one) and the Crono Navigator can destroy all reality. This would make these objects the most powerful in the Multiverse not universe. When you think about it with the Omnitrix you could more powerful then those weapons without having more raw destruction power. I mean Clockwork can easily reverse time before the Time Bomb engulfs him or Alien X could just make the Bomb Malfunction before it detonates or do the something Clockwork could do and reverse time.
@Eroij Yes Clockwork did reverse time as you can see the blast retracting back. Their was still time since the universe/timeline that didn't get destroyed was still their so when he reversed time that also reversed the destruction of those timelines.
@Eroij Yes Clockwork did reverse time as you can see the blast retracting back. Their was still time since the universe/timeline that didn't get destroyed was still their so when he reversed time that also reversed the destruction of those timelines.
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- Thread starter
- #182
They say it's the strongest weapon and being in the unvierse, since, well, the omnitrix, the Chrono Navigator and the timebomb exist in the same universe.
Your example of the timebomb getting it's bomb reversed doesn't explain how Alien X and Clockwork could be considered to have more power than the the timebomb and the Chrono Navigator, which isn't exploding anything. Stopping something before it happens doesn't make something more powerful, obviously I wouldn't be more powerful than the Tsar Bomb if I prevented someone from ever detonating it. That is nonsense.
That just wouldn't make any sense
Preventing something from happening by reversing time or in any other way doesn't make you more powerful than it. Alien X has more raw destruction power than anything in the universe, there's no way around this fact.
If all CLockword did was reversing time, they would go back in time, which didn't happen. Everything that happened prior to him reversing time, in other words, The episode where Vilgax destroyed would happen EXACTLY the same again. If you play a video, then rewind it and play it again, why in the world would anything about the video change? This is basically what you're saying.
Keep in mind rewinding time and time traveling are NOT the same.
If something explodes, you reverse time by 5 seconds, 5 seconds later it will explode again. This didn't happen though.
Nevertheless, the bomb would STILL detonate, if all Clockwork did was reverse time, since time eventually would go forward. This doesn't happen. you can't change anything by simply reversing time.
Your example of the timebomb getting it's bomb reversed doesn't explain how Alien X and Clockwork could be considered to have more power than the the timebomb and the Chrono Navigator, which isn't exploding anything. Stopping something before it happens doesn't make something more powerful, obviously I wouldn't be more powerful than the Tsar Bomb if I prevented someone from ever detonating it. That is nonsense.
That just wouldn't make any sense
Preventing something from happening by reversing time or in any other way doesn't make you more powerful than it. Alien X has more raw destruction power than anything in the universe, there's no way around this fact.
If all CLockword did was reversing time, they would go back in time, which didn't happen. Everything that happened prior to him reversing time, in other words, The episode where Vilgax destroyed would happen EXACTLY the same again. If you play a video, then rewind it and play it again, why in the world would anything about the video change? This is basically what you're saying.
Keep in mind rewinding time and time traveling are NOT the same.
If something explodes, you reverse time by 5 seconds, 5 seconds later it will explode again. This didn't happen though.
Nevertheless, the bomb would STILL detonate, if all Clockwork did was reverse time, since time eventually would go forward. This doesn't happen. you can't change anything by simply reversing time.
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I used their wiki which referenced different specific parts of the show, not the omnipotent stuff which is baseless. I dont see how its not suitable evidence. I was refereccing specific info for the characters
For the baby celestialsapiens, the fact they couldnt do anything or even use their powers because they where only babies would make sense on why their power would be absorbed over the adults. So if theres a way to prove that statement never happend, please be my guest. But i highlt doubt this is the case otherwise the ben 10 wiki would never place it there to begin with, a wiki like most others constantly keep track of their info. Not 100% perfectly reliable but still. Also even your point about average celestialsapiens living their proves my point even more. The average ones are referred to having that faster than a milosecond feat and all they do is travel whole solar systems that fast. Its impressive, but if they had infinite speed then they wouldve done far more in an instant. Having literally all Celestialsapiens be Infinite Speed may bring in inconsistency. Alsp ypur calc doesnt really prove this wrong. That was done by Alien X whos higher than the average celestialsapien im referring to here.
As far as Naruto and Toneri go, yes there is evidence. You DO realize the cannon that would obliterate the moon was powerred by foddeer Ninja right? Ninja who are a joke compared to Naruto and Toneri. So by this logic in scaling Alien X higher than a contraptions AP, then Naruto and any major character from the high to god tier is casually moon level through the same reasoning. Same thing with DB and the Time Vault. All the Time Vault is just that, a vault. It can literally be destroyed by any notable character in the verse and getting rid of it = getting rid of all timelines. But that doesnt mean them being stronger or able to destroy it makes them Tier 2. Case end point, rating someones AP because they >>> a weapon isnt something that you normally see and may not be a good idea.
Also, please stop claiming "i keep referring to this". I havent been on this site for days, let alone this thread and alreadt admitted to not know everything that was argued here.
I gtg because School so ill b back later.
For the baby celestialsapiens, the fact they couldnt do anything or even use their powers because they where only babies would make sense on why their power would be absorbed over the adults. So if theres a way to prove that statement never happend, please be my guest. But i highlt doubt this is the case otherwise the ben 10 wiki would never place it there to begin with, a wiki like most others constantly keep track of their info. Not 100% perfectly reliable but still. Also even your point about average celestialsapiens living their proves my point even more. The average ones are referred to having that faster than a milosecond feat and all they do is travel whole solar systems that fast. Its impressive, but if they had infinite speed then they wouldve done far more in an instant. Having literally all Celestialsapiens be Infinite Speed may bring in inconsistency. Alsp ypur calc doesnt really prove this wrong. That was done by Alien X whos higher than the average celestialsapien im referring to here.
As far as Naruto and Toneri go, yes there is evidence. You DO realize the cannon that would obliterate the moon was powerred by foddeer Ninja right? Ninja who are a joke compared to Naruto and Toneri. So by this logic in scaling Alien X higher than a contraptions AP, then Naruto and any major character from the high to god tier is casually moon level through the same reasoning. Same thing with DB and the Time Vault. All the Time Vault is just that, a vault. It can literally be destroyed by any notable character in the verse and getting rid of it = getting rid of all timelines. But that doesnt mean them being stronger or able to destroy it makes them Tier 2. Case end point, rating someones AP because they >>> a weapon isnt something that you normally see and may not be a good idea.
Also, please stop claiming "i keep referring to this". I havent been on this site for days, let alone this thread and alreadt admitted to not know everything that was argued here.
I gtg because School so ill b back later.
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Even so, I didn't make any argument about Alien X being omnipotent. You guys accused me of making an argument about it, which I didn't do.Assaltwaffle said:
When I said, "Alien X is truly up there," I was talking about him clearly being a higher tier. And by my first statement, I was advising against it because no one would listen.
And I definitely wasn't going with No-Limits fallacy since I wasn't stating anything about Alien X being unbeatable. I suggest you stop playing Sherlock and putting words in my mouth
Same to you, Eroij
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@ProfessorKukui4life, instead of trusting what the wiki says, WATCH THE CLIP I LINKED. They make no mention of Ben reversing time in the episode, so yes it's a baseless claim. It is not said in the episode + they give NO sources at all on that specific page for their baseless claim. I can change what's said in the wiki if that will convince you.
"For the baby 'celestialsapiens', the fact they 'couldn't' do anything or even use their powers because they 'where' only babies would make sense on why their power would be absorbed over the adults. So if 'theres' a way to prove that statement never 'happend', please be my guest. l." Watch the episode, there's your prrof. The baby only appeared for 1 episode and was only mentioned in 1.
Please refrain from having me or others prove you're wrong, the burden of proof is on you since YOU made the claim not me. You can't just claim all sorts of thing, and expect me or others to disprove all of them instead of YOU who made the claim actually backing thrm up. What sense does that make? That's like if you said you had an invisible, intangible, FTL Dragon in your basement, and I somehow had to prove it instead of you proving your claim. That is not how debating or proving something works. And again, I can just edit the wiki to something entirely different if that will make you realize how unreliable the wiki is.
You're not gonna believe me if I said Sakura is omnipotent and can destroy all of fiction, you wouldn't believe the Naruto wiki if it said Naruto's grand-grand son as a baby is as strong as adult Naruto , if no sources and explanations or proof whatsoever were given, so why in the world do you blindly assume what the wiki says is true, other than the Omnipotence part? They give no sources to any of the claims, so obviously DONT use it as evidence. A baseless assumption is baseless, doesn't matter where it is from. it is still unreliable.
"But i highlt doubt this is the case otherwise the ben 10 wiki would never place it there to begin with, a wiki like most others constantly keep track of their info. Not 100% perfectly reliable but still.", yet you admit that the omnipotence claim is baseless thus shouldn't be trusted. This sentence contradicts itself.
You are not making any sense. Either you believe all their baseless claim or you believe none of their baseless claims. I'm starting to think you don't know what baseless means.
Literally nothing in the first quote in this post is stated in the series, or by the author. The reason Aggregor chose a baby over an adult, is because he wouldn't have to deal with having to debate with multiple personalities, in order to do something. THAT'S IT, any other reason is baseless assumptions. The Baby not being able to use its power is a baseless statement, and so is everything else you said.
And you know what? It proves absolutely nothing, whether you're right about the babies being unable to use their power or not, it STILL doesn't disprove the adults having infinite speed. So please, no further discussion about the baby and its power. There's no mention of it not being able to move an inch in 1000 years in the wiki or in the series, that is a baseless claim you just came up with, based on nothing but assumptions. Otherwise? PROVE YOU'RE RIGHT.
" Also even your point about average celestialsapiens living their proves my point even more. The average ones are referred to having that faster than a milosecond feat and all they do is travel whole solar systems that fast. Its impressive, but if they had infinite speed then they wouldve done far more in an instant. Having literally all Celestialsapiens be Infinite Speed may bring in inconsistency. Alsp ypur calc doesnt really prove this wrong. That was done by Alien X whos higher than the average celestialsapie im referring to here."
Not trying to be rude here, but did you even read my post? As I said before:
"it is never stated in the series ever that the average Celestialsapien can travel the solar systems in seconds, you're gonna have to source this."
"'The average Celestialsapien that moved between solar systems in 'seconds with no given timeframe and distance, was Alien X and the Gladiator, whom you admit is infinitely fast, so yeah it is entirely false. Alien X is an average CS.
Never in the wiki or the series do they state anything about the difference between an average and an elite celestialsapien and before you repeat yourself, the average celestialsapien that flew (more) than a solar system in a unknow timeframe was Alien X. Alien X is never stated or implied to be anything but average.
I'm not going to say this again. The timeframe is unknown, and it says LESS than a millisecond, so your argument again contradicts itself. Less than a millisecond could be 0 seconds, since 0 seconds is less than a millisecond. The timeframe and distance being unknown are why they state LESS THAN A MILISECOND ( meaning unknown), and an unspecified amount of solar systems in plural. This absolutely does not disprove anything.
the wiki is basing the DISTANCE on nothing, and the TIMEFRAME on nothing. The reasoning behind the timeframe and distance is not sourced anywhere nor explained AT ALL. stop trusting all the baseless claims from the wiki. And again, the wiki does not disprove what I'm saying.
you're saying the average CS is slower than Alien X proves they aren't all infinitely fast, despite Alien X being the "slow" CS and all the other having the feat of infinite speed. Alien X is NOT more powerful than the average Celestialsapien, you're basing this on nothing, literally nothing. Did you not see his fight with an average CS the Gladiator and how he was kicking his ass throughout most of the fight, and how Ben was unable to blitz him?
Again Aggregor would not have absorbed a baby CS if the adults had more power than the babies + Paradox also said the Baby CS have the same power as the adults. This would obviously also mean that Alien X is average and as powerful as the rest. In the wiki there's no source given as for why the babies can't control their power, so don't use it as evidence. Remember, I can always just edit it so it's no longer there, if you truly believe baseless statements with no sources given are 100% factual solely on the fact that are written in an unreliable wiki which you yourself have already admitted.
"As far as Naruto and Toneri go, yes there is evidence. You DO realize the cannon that would obliterate the moon was powerred by foddeer Ninja right? Ninja who are a joke compared to Naruto and Toneri. So by this logic in scaling Alien X higher than a contraptions AP, then Naruto and any major character from the high to god tier is casually moon level through the same reasoning. Case end point, rating someones AP because they >>> a weapon isnt something that you normally see and may not be a good idea."
Nice, you're again missing my point completely.
I'm starting to think you didn't actually read my post since you wouldn't have said any of this if you did, since it has no similarities with Alien X and his scaling, other than "both are weapons".
Naruto and all the others were never compared to the weapon, they were never stated to have more power than the weapon, they never created the weapon out of nothing etc. Guess what? Alien X did all the above, and you already said it yourself, if you create a weapon due to your power you scale to it, which Alien X did.
You don't know if the canon amplifies or multiplies their energy or something, you don't know how it works so you can't scale Naruto and the others to it.
If getting rid of the time vault destroys all timelines means that the absence of the time vault destroys all timelines, not the characters themselves. What proof do you have of the time vault having the same durability as DC? If it is the same, and you actually have evidence of it, then obviously they scale otherwise nope.
The omnitrix was specifically stated to be the MOST POWERFUL WEAPON IN THE UNIVERSE, from someone who has seen the time bomb destroy all of existence, what's so wrong about scaling a weapon to a weapon? the author said that Alien X can destroy all of existence. They also mention and believe this in the unreliable wiki that you're using as proof as to why Alien X isn't tier 2-A.
Paradox and Azmuth said that Alien X has the most power in the universe AND the 'forge' of creation is the source of the Universe's greatest power. Guess what's not the greatest power in the unvierse? the timebomb and the Chrono Navigator ( both tier 2-a multiversal)
If a weapon is more powerful than another weapon then obviously it has at least the same DC as it, the same way Goku is stronger than Frieza thus, he scales to him. This isnt exactly complicated, or is it because a weapon is not living? In that case, no weapon scales to any weapon in fiction, no robot scales to anything and nobody scales to robot in fiction. Not how it works.
"For the baby 'celestialsapiens', the fact they 'couldn't' do anything or even use their powers because they 'where' only babies would make sense on why their power would be absorbed over the adults. So if 'theres' a way to prove that statement never 'happend', please be my guest. l." Watch the episode, there's your prrof. The baby only appeared for 1 episode and was only mentioned in 1.
Please refrain from having me or others prove you're wrong, the burden of proof is on you since YOU made the claim not me. You can't just claim all sorts of thing, and expect me or others to disprove all of them instead of YOU who made the claim actually backing thrm up. What sense does that make? That's like if you said you had an invisible, intangible, FTL Dragon in your basement, and I somehow had to prove it instead of you proving your claim. That is not how debating or proving something works. And again, I can just edit the wiki to something entirely different if that will make you realize how unreliable the wiki is.
You're not gonna believe me if I said Sakura is omnipotent and can destroy all of fiction, you wouldn't believe the Naruto wiki if it said Naruto's grand-grand son as a baby is as strong as adult Naruto , if no sources and explanations or proof whatsoever were given, so why in the world do you blindly assume what the wiki says is true, other than the Omnipotence part? They give no sources to any of the claims, so obviously DONT use it as evidence. A baseless assumption is baseless, doesn't matter where it is from. it is still unreliable.
"But i highlt doubt this is the case otherwise the ben 10 wiki would never place it there to begin with, a wiki like most others constantly keep track of their info. Not 100% perfectly reliable but still.", yet you admit that the omnipotence claim is baseless thus shouldn't be trusted. This sentence contradicts itself.
You are not making any sense. Either you believe all their baseless claim or you believe none of their baseless claims. I'm starting to think you don't know what baseless means.
Literally nothing in the first quote in this post is stated in the series, or by the author. The reason Aggregor chose a baby over an adult, is because he wouldn't have to deal with having to debate with multiple personalities, in order to do something. THAT'S IT, any other reason is baseless assumptions. The Baby not being able to use its power is a baseless statement, and so is everything else you said.
And you know what? It proves absolutely nothing, whether you're right about the babies being unable to use their power or not, it STILL doesn't disprove the adults having infinite speed. So please, no further discussion about the baby and its power. There's no mention of it not being able to move an inch in 1000 years in the wiki or in the series, that is a baseless claim you just came up with, based on nothing but assumptions. Otherwise? PROVE YOU'RE RIGHT.
" Also even your point about average celestialsapiens living their proves my point even more. The average ones are referred to having that faster than a milosecond feat and all they do is travel whole solar systems that fast. Its impressive, but if they had infinite speed then they wouldve done far more in an instant. Having literally all Celestialsapiens be Infinite Speed may bring in inconsistency. Alsp ypur calc doesnt really prove this wrong. That was done by Alien X whos higher than the average celestialsapie im referring to here."
Not trying to be rude here, but did you even read my post? As I said before:
"it is never stated in the series ever that the average Celestialsapien can travel the solar systems in seconds, you're gonna have to source this."
"'The average Celestialsapien that moved between solar systems in 'seconds with no given timeframe and distance, was Alien X and the Gladiator, whom you admit is infinitely fast, so yeah it is entirely false. Alien X is an average CS.
Never in the wiki or the series do they state anything about the difference between an average and an elite celestialsapien and before you repeat yourself, the average celestialsapien that flew (more) than a solar system in a unknow timeframe was Alien X. Alien X is never stated or implied to be anything but average.
I'm not going to say this again. The timeframe is unknown, and it says LESS than a millisecond, so your argument again contradicts itself. Less than a millisecond could be 0 seconds, since 0 seconds is less than a millisecond. The timeframe and distance being unknown are why they state LESS THAN A MILISECOND ( meaning unknown), and an unspecified amount of solar systems in plural. This absolutely does not disprove anything.
the wiki is basing the DISTANCE on nothing, and the TIMEFRAME on nothing. The reasoning behind the timeframe and distance is not sourced anywhere nor explained AT ALL. stop trusting all the baseless claims from the wiki. And again, the wiki does not disprove what I'm saying.
you're saying the average CS is slower than Alien X proves they aren't all infinitely fast, despite Alien X being the "slow" CS and all the other having the feat of infinite speed. Alien X is NOT more powerful than the average Celestialsapien, you're basing this on nothing, literally nothing. Did you not see his fight with an average CS the Gladiator and how he was kicking his ass throughout most of the fight, and how Ben was unable to blitz him?
Again Aggregor would not have absorbed a baby CS if the adults had more power than the babies + Paradox also said the Baby CS have the same power as the adults. This would obviously also mean that Alien X is average and as powerful as the rest. In the wiki there's no source given as for why the babies can't control their power, so don't use it as evidence. Remember, I can always just edit it so it's no longer there, if you truly believe baseless statements with no sources given are 100% factual solely on the fact that are written in an unreliable wiki which you yourself have already admitted.
"As far as Naruto and Toneri go, yes there is evidence. You DO realize the cannon that would obliterate the moon was powerred by foddeer Ninja right? Ninja who are a joke compared to Naruto and Toneri. So by this logic in scaling Alien X higher than a contraptions AP, then Naruto and any major character from the high to god tier is casually moon level through the same reasoning. Case end point, rating someones AP because they >>> a weapon isnt something that you normally see and may not be a good idea."
Nice, you're again missing my point completely.
I'm starting to think you didn't actually read my post since you wouldn't have said any of this if you did, since it has no similarities with Alien X and his scaling, other than "both are weapons".
Naruto and all the others were never compared to the weapon, they were never stated to have more power than the weapon, they never created the weapon out of nothing etc. Guess what? Alien X did all the above, and you already said it yourself, if you create a weapon due to your power you scale to it, which Alien X did.
You don't know if the canon amplifies or multiplies their energy or something, you don't know how it works so you can't scale Naruto and the others to it.
If getting rid of the time vault destroys all timelines means that the absence of the time vault destroys all timelines, not the characters themselves. What proof do you have of the time vault having the same durability as DC? If it is the same, and you actually have evidence of it, then obviously they scale otherwise nope.
The omnitrix was specifically stated to be the MOST POWERFUL WEAPON IN THE UNIVERSE, from someone who has seen the time bomb destroy all of existence, what's so wrong about scaling a weapon to a weapon? the author said that Alien X can destroy all of existence. They also mention and believe this in the unreliable wiki that you're using as proof as to why Alien X isn't tier 2-A.
Paradox and Azmuth said that Alien X has the most power in the universe AND the 'forge' of creation is the source of the Universe's greatest power. Guess what's not the greatest power in the unvierse? the timebomb and the Chrono Navigator ( both tier 2-a multiversal)
If a weapon is more powerful than another weapon then obviously it has at least the same DC as it, the same way Goku is stronger than Frieza thus, he scales to him. This isnt exactly complicated, or is it because a weapon is not living? In that case, no weapon scales to any weapon in fiction, no robot scales to anything and nobody scales to robot in fiction. Not how it works.
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TL: DR @ProfessorKukui4life,
Don't bring up claims if you're not gonna back them up, other than saying " it says so on the wiki" the burden of proof is on YOU since you claimed it, not on me to disprove them.The wiki is vey unreliable, it doesn't source any of the claims you mentioned. Literally NONE you mentioned are sourced. Go to the bottom of the pages to check yourself. I've watched the episodes and every claim they made that you mentioned is never stated in any of those.The baby CS not being able to move an inch for 1000 years is something you yourself made up, it doesn't mention this in the1 episode it appears, nor does the author or even the unreliable wiki state so.
Alien X being above "average" Celestialsapiens is your headcanon, not backed up by anything. Not even the wiki says this. Alien X is the one with the solar system speed feat, which has a vague timeframe and distance. "Less than a millisecond" is what it says on the wiki and it could be 0 seconds for all we know, since 0 seconds is less than a millisecond. Nothing backs up this claim on the wiki or in the series and it doesn't disprove anything about them having infinite speed. They obviously got no clue about the timeframe on the wiki since they said "less than".
Alien X scales to both the timebomb and the Chrono Navigator, since the Omnitrix is stated to be the most powerful weapon in the universe several times. Alien X is multiple times stated to be the most powerful alien in the Omnitrix and the universe. The unreliable wiki also puts Alien X as omniversal, yet you still choose to use it as evidence to disprove he is. Furthermore, Alien X having "the greatest power in the universe" and being called "Omnipotent" is mentioned in the series + by the author. The author also said Alien X is 'omniversal'. Alien X also created from nothing both Tier 2-A weapons. This firmly puts it above all weapons in the series. This is nothing like your examples with DBZ and Naruto. As for your other points? Read the long post above
@LordGriffin1000 I think your character description is pretty accurate, you should update the profiles to this. Remember to put them at tier 2-A
Don't bring up claims if you're not gonna back them up, other than saying " it says so on the wiki" the burden of proof is on YOU since you claimed it, not on me to disprove them.The wiki is vey unreliable, it doesn't source any of the claims you mentioned. Literally NONE you mentioned are sourced. Go to the bottom of the pages to check yourself. I've watched the episodes and every claim they made that you mentioned is never stated in any of those.The baby CS not being able to move an inch for 1000 years is something you yourself made up, it doesn't mention this in the1 episode it appears, nor does the author or even the unreliable wiki state so.
Alien X being above "average" Celestialsapiens is your headcanon, not backed up by anything. Not even the wiki says this. Alien X is the one with the solar system speed feat, which has a vague timeframe and distance. "Less than a millisecond" is what it says on the wiki and it could be 0 seconds for all we know, since 0 seconds is less than a millisecond. Nothing backs up this claim on the wiki or in the series and it doesn't disprove anything about them having infinite speed. They obviously got no clue about the timeframe on the wiki since they said "less than".
Alien X scales to both the timebomb and the Chrono Navigator, since the Omnitrix is stated to be the most powerful weapon in the universe several times. Alien X is multiple times stated to be the most powerful alien in the Omnitrix and the universe. The unreliable wiki also puts Alien X as omniversal, yet you still choose to use it as evidence to disprove he is. Furthermore, Alien X having "the greatest power in the universe" and being called "Omnipotent" is mentioned in the series + by the author. The author also said Alien X is 'omniversal'. Alien X also created from nothing both Tier 2-A weapons. This firmly puts it above all weapons in the series. This is nothing like your examples with DBZ and Naruto. As for your other points? Read the long post above
@LordGriffin1000 I think your character description is pretty accurate, you should update the profiles to this. Remember to put them at tier 2-A
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Can we get another thread on this to summarize the changes? I still don't understand what's happened in the 200+ replies since the beginning of the thread, and don't have the patience to read through all of them.
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Everything I've said thourghout this thread is already in the OP, however if you want I can summarize it even further in another.The Everlasting said:
@Antvasima, you should add "more powerful than the Chrono Navigator and the Chronosapien Time Bomb" in DC and dura, as for range it should also be multiversal since it was stated in an episode that CS are the cause of the change of the artwork in the series, this affected all timelines and it was only done by CS from 1 universe.
You should add in that Celestialsapein are immortal due to longevity. It takes thousands of years for them to become adults, Serena and Bellicus have debated for an eternity said in the first episode they appear + Starbeard assumed it would take an eternity for Alien X to move implying it at some point took him or others he knew. I also think the calc of Alien X's should be added, as a low-end that proves he is indeed very fast.
Other than that it looks fine.
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Okay. However, it would help the rest of the staff if you create a new thread that summarises all of the information about the suggested changes in an easily comprehended manner. Preferably try to structure it better than the old one.
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Never mind, here it is:
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/642277
It is still quite disordered however, continues to maintain that infinite timelines equals infinite multiverses, rather than universes, and does not summarise the suggested explanation text segments for the profile statistics.
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/642277
It is still quite disordered however, continues to maintain that infinite timelines equals infinite multiverses, rather than universes, and does not summarise the suggested explanation text segments for the profile statistics.
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Not sure how I could summarize it anymore without leaving all the reasoning.
There is not more than 1 timeline for each multiverse, they mean the same. As said by Paradox, 1 universe is "normal" the other universe has "strange physics" that are counterintuitive. If universe = Timeline, he would not have said that nor would he had explained to them what parallel worlds are using timeline as the word instead of universe.
There's nothing indicating that a timeline= a universe. Furthermore, Paradox explained that parallel worlds are basically multiverses, where history is slightly different than what it is in the main timeline. This is not the case for the other universe from the same timeline.
Think of it like in DBZ, where Trunks' timeline is not in the same multiverse as the main timeline, but both are still multiverses that exist separately. Trunk's come from a parallel world / a parallel timeline/ a parallel multiverse.
There is not more than 1 timeline for each multiverse, they mean the same. As said by Paradox, 1 universe is "normal" the other universe has "strange physics" that are counterintuitive. If universe = Timeline, he would not have said that nor would he had explained to them what parallel worlds are using timeline as the word instead of universe.
There's nothing indicating that a timeline= a universe. Furthermore, Paradox explained that parallel worlds are basically multiverses, where history is slightly different than what it is in the main timeline. This is not the case for the other universe from the same timeline.
Think of it like in DBZ, where Trunks' timeline is not in the same multiverse as the main timeline, but both are still multiverses that exist separately. Trunk's come from a parallel world / a parallel timeline/ a parallel multiverse.
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