Ben 10 - Alien X downgrade y’all saw coming a mile away!

[Aachintya31]

Ben 10 as verse follows Quantum Mechanical Model of Many World Interpretation and Bosonoic String Theory For their Higher Dimension Entities.

Since VSBW doesn't use Dimensional Tiering so the latter is useless to discuss but still exists in Ben 10.

Quantum Mechanical Model of Many World Interpretation Literally says there are infinite number of universes, dimension and earths in ben 10. Paradox literally Says there are many earth, dimensions and universes (differentiating the terms in different ocassions.) Here the word "many" literally means infinite according to the Many World Interpretation that the verse was explicity shown to follow. Holidays Statement is Just an additional proof of this .Alongwith this even maltruant exclaimed the timestream(which encompass the universes) to be infinite. Its not possible he meant a single strand of timestream is infinite because they were shown to be finite and have end Points like Beginning and possibly End of Time.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Ben 10 as verse follows Quantum Mechanical Model of Many World Interpretation and Bosonoic String Theory For their Higher Dimension Entities.

Since VSBW doesn't use Dimensional Tiering so the latter is useless to discuss but still exists in Ben 10.

Quantum Mechanical Model of Many World Interpretation Literally says there are infinite number of universes, dimension and earths in ben 10. Paradox literally Says there are many earth, dimensions and universes (differentiating the terms in different ocassions.) Here the word "many" literally means infinite according to the Many World Interpretation that the verse was explicity shown to follow. Holidays Statement is Just an additional proof of this .Alongwith this even maltruant exclaimed the timestream(which encompass the universes) to be infinite. Its not possible he meant a single strand of timestream is infinite because they were shown to be finite and have end Points like Beginning and possibly End of Time.

I see this kind of argument brought up often and it’s not ironclad as you want to believe. Just because a verse has a mention of quantum mechanics or string theory doesn’t mean it follows said concepts to the absolute T perfectly when fiction and reality do not 100% parallel each other in all ways.

The Many Worlds Interpretation in the first place doesn’t automatically equal 2-A or infinite, just as we don’t accept Countless to equal infinite despite the former being another term for the latter. Infinite worlds is something you still need to explicitly prove to be happening and not just assume to be the same as how it’s to be treated or theorized in our world.

If something like mentioning string theory was enough to get it, a lot more verses here would get 2-A.

 

[Reiner04]

Ok then, I hope we are done with dealing everything that is not in the OP (motion and opposition both), hope a day will come, today or tomorrow when all the FRA'S will get time to deal with OP reasonings and it's counters.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Anyway, we should give Zamasu time to catch up on everything that’s happened so far so he has a chance to respond.

 

[Lovemovies14]

Should this thread be locked for now or not.

 

[Antvasima]

That’ s not part of the rules. I can name you quite a handful of times where staff (including myself) have noticed a thread, realized it was bs, and downgraded it a day later. If there’s faulty evidence there’s faulty evidence.

This^

To be blunt, but it really doesn’t matter how much effort is put into a revision if the evidence used for it is flawed and the people who took part in said revision ignored it or just didn’t notice it. If evidence is faulty, it’s faulty and should be called out. Simple as that.

Just like the Holiday statement, something we already determined to be a unreliable piece of evidence for multiple reasons since 2019, but yet people brought this statement up again for the same reasons it was brought up before and got it passed, so it had to be called out again.

Okay. I suppose those are good points.

 

[Forthegood]

Ben 10 as verse follows Quantum Mechanical Model of Many World Interpretation and Bosonoic String Theory For their Higher Dimension Entities.

Since VSBW doesn't use Dimensional Tiering so the latter is useless to discuss but still exists in Ben 10.

Quantum Mechanical Model of Many World Interpretation Literally says there are infinite number of universes, dimension and earths in ben 10. Paradox literally Says there are many earth, dimensions and universes (differentiating the terms in different ocassions.) Here the word "many" literally means infinite according to the Many World Interpretation that the verse was explicity shown to follow. Holidays Statement is Just an additional proof of this .Alongwith this even maltruant exclaimed the timestream(which encompass the universes) to be infinite. Its not possible he meant a single strand of timestream is infinite because they were shown to be finite and have end Points like Beginning and possibly End of Time.

Mhm the writer said it does follow it and he also said that there was different alterations of a Multiverse since 1957( I don't remember the Statement exactly.) as he says for us to understand how they understood Multi Dimensional we have to refer to Calabi Yau Manifold and M-theory.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

I agree with the OP.

I disagree

 

[Aachintya31]

I see this kind of argument brought up often and it’s not ironclad as you want to believe. Just because a verse has a mention of quantum mechanics or string theory doesn’t mean it follows said concepts to the absolute T perfectly when fiction and reality do not 100% parallel each other in all ways.

The only claim i made was that the word "many" refers to infinite universes ,because that's how physics treats string theory which the verse was stated to follow .There are other instances also ,which supports this claim in the show in mentioned in the post. Its not random.
You have to prove why it isn't infinite.

The Many Worlds Interpretation in the first place doesn’t automatically equal 2-A or infinite, just as we don’t accept Countless to equal infinite despite the former being another term for the latter.

That theory literally says "There are infinite number of universes" ,its not countless or some random similar world.

Infinite worlds is something you still need to explicitly prove to be happening and not just assume to be the same as how it’s to be treated or theorized in our world.'

Yeah bro, you just killed powerscaling. Half of the stuff which includes ,calculations ,distances of stars ,planets ,sizes of celestial bodies are literally used which happens in real life.

If something like mentioning string theory was enough to get it, a lot more verses here would get 2-A.

This is not an argument.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

why

Mhm the writer said it does follow it and he also said that there was different alterations of a Multiverse since 1957( I don't remember the Statement exactly.) as he says for us to understand how they understood Multi Dimensional we have to refer to Calabi Yau Manifold and M-theory.

why do we care about what the author said, if it's not substantiated in the text at all?

 

[Firestorm808]

The topics from the OP already had individual threads covering each one. Now, the topics are lumped together and created another jumbled discussion where different topics are being thrown left and right with little focus.

Since it was literally days ago, would it be appropriate to re-open the previous threads and continue their individual topic discussions there? That way, we can keep the topic discussion focused.

 

[Forthegood]

why

why do we care about what the author said, if it's not substantiated in the text at all?

I was referring to what Aachintya said?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

The only claim i made was that the word "many" refers to infinite universes ,because that's how physics treats string theory which the verse was stated to follow .

And like I said, this doesn’t amount to anything. Fiction and reality do not parallel each other perfectly. You need to explicitly prove infinite. You need to prove the verse follows string theory to that explicit extent and not assume it does.

There are other instances also ,which supports this claim in the show in mentioned in the post. Its not random.
You have to prove why it isn't infinite.

No I don’t, because that is a reverse burden of proof. Your burden of proof is proving the context means infinite, and the only evidence you’re argument gives is because physics IRL theorize its infinite. That’s not enough.

And the show only supports the fact that the theory means there’s a multiverse existing in Ben 10. Something that’s been very obvious in the series without the need of this.

That theory literally says "There are infinite number of universes" ,its not countless or some random similar world.

Again, it says that for how the theory operates in real life. You need to prove Ben 10 follows the theory to that extent as well.

And you might as well argue any series that has the Many Worlds Interpretation of “many alternate universes” gets 2-A. Something we don’t do.

Yeah bro, you just killed powerscaling. Half of the stuff which includes ,calculations ,distances of stars ,planets ,sizes of celestial bodies are literally used which happens in real life.

False equivalence. Calculating feats is something fiction gives details to support. Distances of stars? Creators don’t need rocket science to apply the distance of the Milky Way in a universe that’s based on our own.

You are taking a real life theory and calming Ben 10 follows it to the absolute T for a cosmology upgrade just because it was mentioned once, and arguing that is enough to give it a drastic upgrade to its cosmology that we normally require a lot more evidence for.

There’s a difference between claiming a theory exists and claiming the verse follows said theory completely.

This is not an argument.

It is. That’s called calling out a double standard.

Like I said, verses here get their evidence scrutinized much harder than this to get 2-A, but all of a sudden a simple mention of a theory, one that this series may or may not follow completely, is enough for a big change?

 

[Reiner04]

The topics from the OP already had individual threads covering each one. Now, the topics are lumped together and created another jumbled discussion where different topics are being thrown left and right with little focus.

Since it was literally days ago, would it be appropriate to re-open the previous threads and continue their individual topic discussions there? That way, we can keep the topic discussion focused.

This is what I said since start, it has far more things to go than what OP has decided to go over and can be seen in a discussion as well that other topics are being brought up causing it to get entirely messed up or difficult to understand, that's why since start I tried make it clear and easy to understand just by telling everyone and doing same (dealing with only OP) but here we are now, it's going here and there and I've even stopped reading all the bullshit here.

No one listens in the end.

 

[Antvasima]

The topics from the OP already had individual threads covering each one. Now, the topics are lumped together and created another jumbled discussion where different topics are being thrown left and right with little focus.

Since it was literally days ago, would it be appropriate to re-open the previous threads and continue their individual topic discussions there? That way, we can keep the topic discussion focused.

This may be a good idea.

Would you be willing to do so, @Zamasu_Chan ?

 

[Reiner04]

I suggest reopening previous threads in lined up manner and discussing it there is a good idea but the users who can respond should be limited so that it's not get messy.

And it'll be honest discussion with everyone giving thir reasonings to why this is not right or why this is wrong.

 

[Aachintya31]

I am gonna wait for things to happen individually.

 

[skippy]

After this, I don't think there should be another downgrade thread at all. For too long people have underestimated and kept doing those things to make sure the score is lower and have messed with it too much. Also the fact that the cosmology had been already accepted by plenty of people. Also they can become toxic discussions.

Not how it works, if there is new arguments or Arguments that havent been Adressed, making a crt is 100% valid.
Unless there is a discussion rule preventing from making a crt downgrading ben 10 cosmology, you can make a crt downgrading its cosmology.
Also many people accepting doesnt mean its immune from being downgraded or upgraded, look at Bleach Cosmology downgrade… it was a mess.

 

[Reiner04]

Not how it works, if there is new arguments or Arguments that havent been Adressed, making a crt is 100% valid.
Unless there is a discussion rule preventing from making a crt downgrading ben 10 cosmology, you can make a crt downgrading its cosmology.
Also many people accepting doesnt mean its immune from being downgraded or upgraded, look at Bleach Cosmology downgrade… it was a mess.

True, I said it already. Everyone is free to make their crt's.

 

[Aachintya31]

Not how it works, if there is new arguments or Arguments that havent been Adressed, making a crt is 100% valid.
Unless there is a discussion rule preventing from making a crt downgrading ben 10 cosmology, you can make a crt downgrading its cosmology.
Also many people accepting doesnt mean its immune from being downgraded or upgraded, look at Bleach Cosmology downgrade… it was a mess.

Yes everyone is free to make their crts but there should be some civic decency to discuss matters one by one instead of bringing tired and ded users for support in literally everything by creating a mess for matters which took 6 different threads to pass.

 

[Braking]

Its a new ben 10 crt every month

 

[Reiner04]

Its a new ben 10 crt every month

 

[Arceus0x]

Ben when he turns 10

(idk i never watched this show)

 

[T1tansg90]

For the part about alien X not being able to stop the time bomb, I still don't think it was cause alien X couldn't stop it.
It was because the omnitrix just isn't advanced enough to deal with things like the destruction of infinite realities. If people like Kevin could hack into it with some machine in his garage then I don't think it's likely it can sense danger on a grand scale like the CTB.

I mean in the show it only reacts to stuff like explosions or Ben being crushed by things, not him being erased from existence along with his infinite counterparts.

Trying to say it sense/react to crisis on an infinite scale kinda seems like a NLF thing.
And Ben already gave no watch Ben the omnitrix so there was no reason for the failsafe to even be activated anymore.

AND the failsafe activates very slowly, I could make a whole thread of the failsafe activating after Ben should've logically already been dead. The failsafe isn't perfect.

Saying alien X couldn't hold the big bang in his hands is bs lol, there's no proof he couldn’t, the omnitrix turned him to feedback cause feedback could do it, doesn't mean no other alien could do it.


Apart from those things.. I.... Agree? I don't know, I haven't had time to process all this, maybe Tomorrow.

 

[T1tansg90]

This isn't an alternate timeline. this is the probable future of the same timeline if past isn't fixed ,Parallel Paradox Literally said "Or Should I say ,Past". Changing past literally changes the future in Ben 10.

Bruhh ,the annihilaarg already detonated ,does it makes sense to stop something which already happened ?Ben just didn't knew it had detonated. Reversing time is also a similar thing to making a copy ,its just their matter of choice.

Time was literally being destroyed too, there was nothing to reverse.
The only option was to recreate it.

This is nitpicking at an unfathonable level ,the same scan has two things :
Thoughts becoming reality
Unlimited powers
They really can't the same thing in two different line. Unlimited powers refers to raw strength and literally not reality warping

Atomic X is weaker than Alien X miles away by our site rules. Fusions are significantly weaker than regular aliens .Big chuck was overwhelmed by Eon's Servant.
Crashshocker didn't hurt Exoskull even by a bit Ben 10k .XLR8 almost one shotted him. It's just that time manipulation is Atomic X weakness.

Starbeard ain't gonna help ben.Their personality wouldn't agree to do so, Ben 10k says only young ben can save him because its a loop and it should go like as it is destined to go.

I am gonna be real.The writers aren't mad enough to write two different lines meaning the same "Its where ideas become real and then "its the source to the greatest power in the universe "Saying its hyperbolic negates the entire Ben 10 UA : season 1 lore and the fact it was said by two supergenius characters.

Omnitrix Failsafe is smarter than you think. Omnitrix wasn't in ben Prime's hand when he was killed. If that wouldn't happen Ben Prime wouldn't get the omnitrix according to paradox ,it was supposed to happen .These events were supposed to happen for ben prime to get the omnitrix.

Its Infinite Attack Speed not flight speed. The site distinguishes different kind of speed.We could literally see galaxy moving a distance beyond the limit of the screen at 2:33-2:35 in an infinite universe.

 

[Reiner04]

Failsafe, speed and parallel future arguements was bs, it has been done.

 

[Aachintya31]

Time was literally being destroyed too, there was nothing to reverse.

Exactly.

 

[Lovemovies14]

Time was literally being destroyed too, there was nothing to reverse.
The only option was to recreate it.

He would be able to reverse it, he just decided to recreate it instead. Just because he didn't reverse it doesn't imply that he can't.

 

[Aachintya31]

He would be able to reverse it, he just decided to recreate it instead. Just because he didn't reverse it doesn't imply that he can't.

There are arguments which imply time was destroyed.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

He would be able to reverse it, he just decided to recreate it instead. Just because he didn't reverse it doesn't imply that he can't.

It was actually stated by Bellicus, Serena and Ben that Alien X couldn't reverse it because it was too late, which is why he decided to recreate it instead.

 

[Quantu]

At this point, waiting for Zamasu_Chan's reply is probably better than pages of bickering over points he'll probably address

 

[Firestorm808]

As I mentioned before, whether or not he was able to stop it mid destruction is irrelevant to AP if he still recreated everything back afterward.

In any case, I refer to my previous recommendation of reopening the previous threads for more focused discussions.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

As I mentioned before, whether or not he was able to stop it mid destruction is irrelevant to AP if he still recreated everything back afterward.

It’s still a Tier 2 feat regardless, but there being something Alien X is unable to do would discredit the omnipotence statements.

Anyway I’ll try to wait for the OP’s response before bloating the thread.

 

[Lovemovies14]

It was actually stated by Bellicus, Serena and Ben that Alien X couldn't reverse it because it was too late, which is why he decided to recreate it instead.

Too late as in the bomb already detonated. This can be contradicted by the fact before when they stated before he can change the nature of time and space itself implying he would have that power to stop it. Heck Clockwork was able to undo the erasure that was done by the Chronosapien Time Bomb which is Multi+.

 

[Reiner04]

It’s still a Tier 2 feat regardless, but there being something Alien X is unable to do would discredit the omnipotence statements.

Anyway I’ll try to wait for the OP’s response before bloating the thread.

Are we hanging on “OMNIPOTENT” discredit? I think it's as balant as **** that he is not omnipotent, though don't know how it's relevant.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Are we hanging on “OMNIPOTENT” discredit? I think it's as balant as **** that he is not omnipotent, though don't know how it's relevant.

Celestialsapiens being omnipotent, having no limitations, or being able to do “anything” is used as supporting evidence to scale them above everything in the franchise:

Ben 10 - Alien X Feats, Statements, and Scalings

vsbattles.fandom.com

https://vsbattles.com/threads/ben-10-tier-2-profiles-updates-from-cosmology-and-scaling-revisions.143692/

That’s why the OP addressed that in the first place.

 

[Reiner04]

Celestialsapiens being omnipotent, having no limitations, or being able to do “anything” is used as supporting evidence to scale them above everything in the franchise

It was used to credit greatest power in the universe hasn't been retconned my boi nothing out of ordinary has been suggested. It's a credential evidence.

Omnipotence :- limitless power/greatest power/absolute power, whatsoover.

It's strawmaning trying to link it independent.

 

[Lovemovies14]

Celestialsapiens being omnipotent, having no limitations, or being able to do “anything” is used as supporting evidence to scale them above everything in the franchise:

Yeah, but it doesn't necessarily make them omnipotent even if they do scale above everything. They have certain weaknesses and don't have any Tier 0 arguments, and in order to be omnipotent you have to lack weaknesses and scale into boundless level. Omnipotence is used to describe something as vastly powerful, it doesn't automatically equal to actual omnipotence.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

It was used to credit greatest power in the universe hasn't been retconned my boi nothing out of ordinary has been suggested. It's a credential evidence.

Omnipotence :- limitless power/greatest power/absolute power, whatsoover.

It's strawmaning trying to link it independent.

If we’re interpreting the omnipotence statements to just mean “the most powerful” then that’s a fair point, though Azmuth’s “Alien X can do anything” line in particular is still clearly contradicted.

snip

Well of course.

 

[Lovemovies14]

If we’re interpreting the omnipotence statements to just mean “the most powerful” then that’s a fair point, though Azmuth’s “Alien X can do anything” line in particular is still clearly contradicted.

That statement still had been used more than 1 time.