Beholder Revisions

[Foggysniper]

The stats on this monster are low to say the least. I won't be using in game stats for comparing but I will be using CR to prove a point. In 5th edition, the Beholder is CR 13 which means he is a fair fight against a party of 4 charaters that are level 13 but the module Tomb of Annihilation has the party fighting one at level 9 or 10 so I'll use that.

I bring up party levels because at level 9, a magic user would have access to two spells that use lightning. Lightning Bolt (which is already accepted as real lightning in the Empyrean page) and Call Lightning (which literally makes a cloud to call lightning down or uses already existing clouds to call lightning down). His eye beam are comparable to the spells and he can react to those spells.

Also the Beholder has a weakness that is sorta stated in the profile but isn't listed under weaknesses. Its Eye Rays don't work in the Anti-Magic field it creates. That means it can't use a majority of its attacks on its opponent. That seems like a pretty big weakness to not list.

TLR: They get upgraded to 8-C with Massively Hypersonic reaction and combat speed via scaling to the two lightning spells avalable to magic users when they would fight a Beholder. It also gets a weakness on its profile.

 

[Foggysniper]

Bump

 

[Foggysniper]

Bump

 

[Foggysniper]

Bump

 

[Foggysniper]

Bump

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Haven't Beholders been consistently treated as relatively high tier and extremely dangerous enemies for years? You're correct that their current rating seems too low.

Also, yeah, its other eye rays don't work in the anti-magic cone, but it should be noted that the cone is projected from its central eye and is at will, not something that is active at all times whether the Beholder likes it or not.

 

[Foggysniper]

Haven't Beholders been consistently treated as relatively high tier and extremely dangerous enemies for years? You're correct that their current rating seems too low.
Also, yeah, its other eye rays don't work in the anti-magic cone, but it should be noted that the cone is projected from its central eye and is at will, not something that is active at all times whether the Beholder likes it or not.

Yes they have. They've generally been considered bosses for players of the end of tier 2 play (levels 9-10) to early tier 3 play (levels 11-12). Though I'm not exactly sure how high level 10ish players would scale so I used the Lightning/ Call Lightning spells as a good baseline (they're earlyish spells both being level 3 spells.)

The second point is true too. I forgot the Beholder could deactive his Anti-Magic cone.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Though, on a similar note, aren't there some single-digit level spells that have results in the Tier 7 range? Or am I misremembering?

If I'm remembering correctly, wouldn't the Beholder scale to those?

 

[Foggysniper]

Though, on a similar note, aren't there some single-digit level spells that have results in the Tier 7 range? Or am I misremembering?
If I'm remembering correctly, wouldn't the Beholder scale to those?

I don't know of any lower level Tier 7 spells (though Level 8-9 spells like Control Weather and Meteor Swarm have gotten that high).

I know Weekly did a ton of calculations for some D&D spells and a lot of them got into Small to Large Building level range. So he'd certainly scale to those. The highest he'd probably scale is Sunburst which got calculated at City-Block level since that's a spell that a party would probably have at that level.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:WeeklyBattles/Some_D&D_Calcs

Edit: Sunburst is an 8th level spell. I was thinking of the spell Sunbeam. So the Beholder wouldn't scale to City-Block level.

 

[Foggysniper]

The Beholder (if not building level) should be at least small building level for his Disintegration Ray.

Also bump

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Beholder is CR 13 in 3.5e. That means a single Beholder is a match for about four adventurers to reasonably overcome of level 13. At level 13 one can cast spells at lvl 7. The most reasonable rating for such a creature would probably be City Block level, as casters of that level should be able to use Sunburst, calc'd by Weekly and, as far as I know, accepted. He should also be significantly above beings capable of using Dawn and Sunbeam, both of which were calc'd in the same blog.

Technically Control Weather falls into this as well- however, that seems outlier-ish. Then again, that's up to the folks here.

Sauce for those calcs.

Sauce for Beholder CR.

Good explanation of CR for anyone who doesn't get it. I'll get a quote from here for sake of ease.

So in the end, trying to understand how many party members a CR is coordinated against, becomes a bit of a red herring for when it matters. The answer is "4", but that isn't really the answer you want, what you want to focus on is your XP budget, and the multipliers for party size and number of monsters.
	~ Random User​

So, like I said. A Beholder is meant to be a typical encounter for 4 adventurers of level 13, all of whom are comparable to beings that can use 8-B spells.

Hope it helps, cheers.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Do they really get MHS reaction/combat speed? I don't think they can even fully dodge a lightning blast, but slightly move enough of their body out of the way to take less damage.


> Though I'm not exactly sure how high level 10ish players would scale so I used the Lightning/ Call Lightning spells as a good baseline (they're earlyish spells both being level 3 spells.)


Call Lightning doesn't have to be natural though. You can summon it indoors and even underground. As for normal lightning, why is that accepted as MHS? Even in the page that mentions it nothing about the descriptio really screams "natural lightning" to me.


Lastly what edition are we talking about? Because I'm pretty sure spells vary from edition to edition. Like Time Stop in 3e is just speeding up your reaction speed while in 5e it just freezes time.


EDIT: Example of the above is the Call Lightning spell. In 3e it works undeground and indoors and seemly just summons electricty . While in 5e you generate a cloud 100 feet above you that fires lightning or control the storm itself .

 

[Mr. Bambu]

It has shady premise for lightning, probably best to use the Melf's feat I calc'd awhile ago (which ranged from Subsonic to Supersonic). The spells I talk about are within 3.5e. Melf's Minute Meteors always works the same- it creates meteors, and it shoots them at people.

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that Foggysniper and Mr. Bambu seem to make sense.

 

[Foggysniper]

@Qawsedf234

Call Lightning (at least in 5e) is literally making cloud to ground lightning. Unless there's a rule that I'm not aware of, it should count as real Lightning no matter if it's artifical or not.

For the reaction speed part, you would have to make a Dexterity saving throw to take half damage (or in the case of Rouges and Monks dodge it all together) which implies to at least be able to move at comparable speeds to be able to dodge some of the damage. If they didn't want to imply you were dodging the spell in some way, then they would have made it a CON save like the light based spells like Sunbeam and Sunburst.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I get 5e Call Lightning being natural, which is one of the reasons why I asked what edition this site uses/defaults to. Since in 3e it's only natural when you're outside or in a storm.

For the reaction speed part, you would have to make a Dexterity saving throw to take half damage (or in the case of Rouges and Monks dodge it all together) which implies to at least be able to move at comparable speeds to be able to dodge some of the damage. If they didn't want to imply you were dodging the spell in some way, then they would have made it a CON save like the light based spells like Sunbeam and Sunburst.

But why does that make a Beholder MHS? They can't even fully dodge it, but just move enough of their body out of the way to take less damage.

 

[Foggysniper]

But why does that make a Beholder MHS? They can't even fully dodge it, but just move enough of their body out of the way to take less damage.

He still takes less damage from moving away from it. It isn't a full dodge sure but that wouldn't make him so much slower than the spell. At least to the degree he is right now at Peak Human.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Yeah I agree that you need to be superhuman to move even a inch before a lightning bolt covers 100 feet, but I don't think the Beholder needs to be MHS to move say, 5 feet before a lightning bolt covers 100 feet.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

One sec.

I'm unsure if it should be considered legitimate lightning .That said. I'll calc it nonetheless.

To dodge the attack, the Beholder must move, but stay within the confines of a space. One space = 5 x 5 square. Assuming he's standing in the center, then he moved roughly a foot to stay within said space.

Let's say its a low cloud at a height of 1000 meters, which seems pretty fair.

One Foot: .31 meters

So. Comparative speed.

0.31 meters moved x 443,842 m/s speed of lightning / 1000 meters lightning travelled

This equates to 137.59 m/s, or Subsonic. This is a suitable low-end, I believe.

Let's make another assumption. Let's say the cloud stands just above the group in general, at a height of 50 meters or so. Less likely, but it'll do for an example.

Changing our distance travelled by lightning to 50 meters, we get a new speed of 2751.82 m/s, or Mach 8.02, Hypersonic.

I'm of the inclination we should use the Low-End if we use this at all. Which makes it a supporting feat for the speed feat here, which was accepted at Mach 2.93 (Supersonic+). I think that should be used rather than arguing over the possibility that this is legitimate lightning, since it is very much in question.

 

[Qawsedf234]

@Mr. Bambu This is the spell in 5e

A 10-foot tall, 60-foot radius storm cloud cylinder appears 100 feet above you, with you as the center point. The spell fails if your location can't accommodate the cloud's size or height, or if you can't see 100 feet above you. When you cast the spell, choose a point in range from the cloud for lightning to strike. Each creature within 5 feet must make a Dexterity save, taking 3d10 lightning damage on a fail and half on a success. While the spell persists, you can use your action to call lightning to a point in range again.


Since you're very likely to fight a Behoulder underground and not in the open sky, it would need to move 1 foot before the lightning covers 100 feet. What would the results be with those factors in mind?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

100 feet? So my high-end was a tad off. Our distance is 30.48 meters.

Plugging in that value we get a speed of 4514.14 m/s, or Mach 13.16. Just into Hypersonic+.

 

[Foggysniper]

Hypersonic+ sounds good if it gets accepted as a calculation.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Bump

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Gonna make a calc to dump some of these low-tier speed calcs into. If someone wants to get a calc group that is supportive of D&D to look at these feats, we can finish this up a LOT faster. If not, then... we wait. I don't mind, but still.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Pretty good to make a calc thread for the speed feats. At some point we also need to edit in the various calc blogs and cosmic blog to the DnD homepage.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Should finish all of these revisions first, as in, decide how the whole verse checks out. Meaning we need the Elder Tempest feat to be calculated, and move on from there.

If accepted, all epic characters scale to High 7-C, which is a bit of a departure from the Low 7-C we talked about earlier.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Here's the speed feats we've discussed. MHS stuff is way outta the question, but Hypersonic+ might scale to pretty much anyone that matters (level 5/CR 5 or over).

So basically anything above 9-B characters would be Hypersonic+ (or Supersonic+).

 

[Qawsedf234]

Nice work

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Despite the toxicity this thread came to, it did bring up notable abilities for the Beholder.

Power Nullification: The Beholder's central eye is open at all times until manually closed. While open, it nullifies magic and the supernatural- this includes things that are not magic, such as psionic powers, for 150 ft. The exception is for beings much more powerful than itself that can resist this, but that much is obvious.

Mind Manipulation: This is intrinsic to the Charm thing. It literally makes you into a little bit of a puppet for the Beholder.

Pseudo-Precognition: The Beholder is so intelligent it can create plans for nearly any scenario. From what I understand, it works a little akin to Deathstroke's analytic ability but taken to a much greater degree, where it works in advance. Here's some quotes provided by Azzy.

''A beholder has plans on top of plans, even for the least likely circumstances. It doesn't matter if invading 10 Monster Lore adventurers arrive at its lair with summoned angel allies or enslaved demons, by breaking through the floor, by teleporting or riding dinosaurs, or girded with layers of magical defenses and armed with advanced weapons. In any case, the beholder's reaction is calculated, because it has thought about what it and its minions must do in response to every situatio
	~ Azzy​

'Complementing this ever-present, passive paranoia is the beholder's genius-level intelligence. Where another creature would ignore the occurrence of two seemingly unrelated events as merely coincidental, a beholder imagines multiple ways they could be related, finding or fabricating a pattern out of supposed or actual randomness. By thinking of all these possibilities-however implausible they might be-and extrapolating its own actions in response, a beholder is truly prepared for any situation and has a strategy to counteract it.
	~ Azzy​

''The mind of a beholder is powerful and versatile enough that it can envision literally any possibility, and it prepares accordingly, making it virtually impossible for any invaders to catch it unawares. This way of thinking could be interpreted as a form of paranoia- and if so, it would be the most extreme form imaginable. While a human tyrant might be rightfully paranoid about unperceived threats, a beholder is paranoid even though it perceives everything, because that attitude is the natural companion to eternal vigilance.''
	~ Volo's Guide to Monsters, Page 6​

Energy Manipulation: Enervation, literally the draining of energy.

Matter Manipulation: Disintegration, to my knowledge, would fall under this category.

Omnidirectional Sight: The Beholder can see in all directions at once, and actively does so.

One Hit Kill: Death Ray. Why wasn't this added.

Transmutation: They can turn their targets to stone.

 

[Antvasima]

I do not think that we can consider draining energy as Energy Manipulation, but rather as Absorption, and disintegration is also not a remotely versatile enough ability to fall under matter manipulation.

Power nullification, mind manipulation, enhanced senses, one hit kill, and limited transmutation seem fine.

Being a strategic genius is not the same as precognition though.

 

[Zeromaru_X]

4e has a few epic level beholders, like the Ultimate Tyrant (Monster Manual 2), that is level 29; or the Eternal Tyrant (from Dragon mag 377) that surpasses the max level PC can reach -30-, as it has two versions: one at 31 level and the other at 33 level. Mind you, Bahamut is 36 level in 4e, so that means the Eternal Tyrant is on the god level of power of that edition.

My question is: how do you rank these beholders, that surpasses the power of the standard Beholder by... a lot.

I mean, if we use the official methods to convert character from 4e to 5e, the Beholder Ultimate Tyrant would be like CR 20, and the Eternal Tyrant would be 21 and 22.

Mind that Beholders have the same CR in 5e as well in 3.x (CR 13).

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

CR 31-33 is nuts, but I don't know if that's consistently deity level. Deity/demon lord CRs have always been kinda messed up for as long as they've actually been usable.

Hell, in 5e, the Tarrasque has a higher CR than Demogorgon when fought in his home layer. It's higher than all demon lords and archdevils who have stats, actually.

Back in 4e, the Tarrasque still wasn't too far behind Demogorgon in terms of CR, but I don't think it's suppose to represent that the Tarrasque can fight universal reality-warpers on even footing, unless there's some really major Tarrasque lore I missed out on.

 

[Zeromaru_X]

Hell, in 5e, the Tarrasque has a higher CR than Demogorgon when fought in his home layer. It's higher than all demon lords and archdevils who have stats, actually.

Didn't the Tarrasque was created to defeat gods (and demons)? Or that is just current 4e/5e lore ?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Something vaguely like that, I think. It's impressive (and likely way, way higher than we have it rated), but I don't know if it's ever actually contended with lesser deity level entities.

If it did, then damn, I've been underestimating it.

 

[Zeromaru_X]

Well, in the current lore 4e/5e (Dawn War), the Tarrasque was actually created to defeat the enemies of the Princes of Elemental Evil (namely, the gods, but also the Demon Lords). It's supposed that the Tarrasque was never unleashed because the gods won the war before the Princes were able to finish it, so the Tarrasque remains sleeping, awakening only from time to time to eat.

At least in 4e, 30+ level is deity level of power. I dunno in other editions, but I guess the same applies to 5e in the 20+ levels.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Wasn't the purpose originally given to it by the Primordials something along the lines of "destroy the world so that it could be remade" or whatever?

I wish there was some piece of lore that gave a more clear idea of its power. CR can get kinda wonky at higher levels, as going by pure CR, Archdevils Bael (19), Geryon (22), Hutijin (21), Moloch (21), and Titivilus (16) could all have their collective asses whooped by an Ancient Blue Dragon (23).

 

[Zeromaru_X]

Wasn't the purpose originally given to it by the Primordials something along the lines of "destroy the world so that it could be remade" or whatever?

Primordials in general want the world destroyed to be remade. But the Cult of Elemental Evil only wants to destroy the gods and the demon lords, as they are enemies of Tharizdun (and his baernaloths puppet masters). So, they just want to destroy the world for the sake of destroying it.

I wish there was some piece of lore that gave a more clear idea of its power.

The current lore about the Tarrasque is in Dragon 418. In short, it can destroy whole countries with just its maws, and we are talking about the unfinished Tarrasque. The perfected Tarrasque will destroy the World the next time it awakens. Sadly, there is no clarification if "the World" means planet or the whole Material Plane (as in 4e the term is used to refer to both)

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Regardless, the thing definitely needs some sort of upgrade.

 

[Foggysniper]

There's probably a ton of feats for the Tarrasque that we just haven't looked over yet, and he'll be a major focal point of mine once we get the rest of the revisions done.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The Tarrasque is definitely a weird case. To my knowledge, it can be combatted pretty much solely by tons of wizards and other characters attempting to beat up on it all at once, normally with severe prep time. Like Foggy said, might be best to make a CRT thread for him, too.

As for Beholder... those are individuals, we probably shouldn't include them into the general power of the Beholder. If they ever get pages here, though, might be worthwhile.

"30+ is deity level"

Well hell. We have like two level 50s in our party at my table (don't ask, they got into min-maxing and it quickly got out of hand, my guy is like level 16).