- 1,701
- 941
Countable for now.What kind of infinite do the scans mean? Countably or uncountably? Cuz if you were to combine uncountably infinite with the "beyond all space and time" statement, that could be grounds for 5D/Low 1-C as opposed to 2-A
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Countable for now.What kind of infinite do the scans mean? Countably or uncountably? Cuz if you were to combine uncountably infinite with the "beyond all space and time" statement, that could be grounds for 5D/Low 1-C as opposed to 2-A
Again, it really, truly doesnt. The clip of Loptr lasering Bayo is not indicative of Bayo being in any way weaker when Bayo not only dominated him the entire fight beforehand, but beat him later on in the muspelheim (which is canon by both the game and by the guidebook's descriptions), beat Jubileus (who is significantly stronger than him in the previous game), and canonically beat both Father Rodin (who is equal to full power Jubileus) and Infinite Rodin (who is stronger than Aesir), as well as Alaune (who became strong enough to match Queen Sheba [Jubileus' equal] by absorbing Jeanne's soul [Jeanne herself being able to damage Jubileus). And again, the claim that young Loptr beat her is automatically debunked when you actually watch the full fight and see Bayo casually bust the city-sized meteor that he threw at her just seconds before he destroyed the battlefield, with the guidebook outright confirming that he had to flee because Bayo would have beaten him otherwise.The problem here is that your explanations go against what the video shows, one of those has loptr lasering Bayo and ragdolling her all around before the eye is activated, another one with the kid slamming her around, so on and so forth.
The trial, like someone said above, contradicts what the story of the game has and its canonicty becomes dubious considering it is basically a bonus arena.
If he was stronger to the point of surpassing them without the need for the Eyes, the entire plot of the game would have been pointlessAs for Jubileus and Bayo 1 stuff, I'm now knowledgeable but someone said the kid has been getting power from hatred for over 500 years, what's to say he isn't already stronger than those guys?
Not true as shown aboveAgain, she wasnt, as myself, Comic, and Minaj have explained. He only ever beat her with hax or by running away,
Canonicity is up in the air on Musphelheim and you have yet to show scans from the guidebookwhich is coroborated by both the Musphelheim trials and the game's own guidebook
Based on...?Loptr is weaker than One-Eye Jubileus
It is true as myself, Comic, and Minaj have explained. Unless you are arguing that Bayonetta got inexplicably weaker between the end of Bayo 1 and the events of Bayo 2, the only argument that should be made here is if she scales to Aesir, there is no logical reason for her to be weaker than Loptr to any degree.Not true as shown above
Based on the fact that Aesir is equal to Jubileus and Sheba. Loki and Kid Loptr are both half of Aesir's power, adult Loptr/Prophet is kid Loptr after spending hundreds of years growing stronger by absorbing hate, but he still needed to steal Loki's Sovereign Power to get back to his original level of power, ie the same level of power that Bayonetta stomped at the end of Bayonetta 1.Based on...?
Claiming bayo dominated loptr through justification of gameplay is difficult when gameplay experience varies from player to player. The only cutscene that happens is bayo destroying the tower and then hitting Loptr with an infernal weave which knocks him back but doesn't really do anyting to him. The post fight cutscene, our only strictly canon view of the battle shows Loptr with a decent advantage over her.Again, it really, truly doesnt. The clip of Loptr lasering Bayo is not indicative of Bayo being in any way weaker when Bayo not only dominated him the entire fight beforehand, but beat him later on in the muspelheim (which is canon by both the game and by the guidebook's descriptions)
Prove that Weakened Jubileus > Loptr. Father Rodin scaling to Jubileus was determined to be iffy for scaling reasons and lack of insight on Jubileus' current state when Rodin resided in Paradiso. Alraune has no proof of being strong enough to match queen Sheba aside from her saying "I feel like I can become the queen of this realm." She has utterly no feats to back it up and her credibility is not very good considering that her entire character design is being ******* insane and mentally ill., beat Jubileus (who is significantly stronger than him in the previous game), and canonically beat both Father Rodin (who is equal to full power Jubileus) and Infinite Rodin (who is stronger than Aesir), as well as Alaune (who became strong enough to match Queen Sheba [Jubileus' equal] by absorbing Jeanne's soul [Jeanne herself being able to damage Jubileus).
The meteor has less relevance than you're making it out to be. And you still have yet to post scans from the guidebook claiming that loptr would've lost if he hadn't fled.And again, the claim that young Loptr beat her is automatically debunked when you actually watch the full fight and see Bayo casually bust the city-sized meteor that he threw at her just seconds before he destroyed the battlefield, with the guidebook outright confirming that he had to flee because Bayo would have beaten him otherwise.
His goal isn't to become stronger than Bayonetta. His goal is to ascend to Aesir so he can take free will away from humanity which he needs the eyes to do. Bayo also got multiple bail outs, such as Loki opening the gates of hell, Loptr having other urgent needs (taking out Rosa), the destruction of the eyes.If he was stronger to the point of surpassing them without the need for the Eyes, the entire plot of the game would have been pointless
This whole point leans on the assumption that weakened Jubileus is stronger than Loptr which has not been proven. Bayo being weaker than Loptr does not imply that Bayo got weaker between 1 and 2.It is true as myself, Comic, and Minaj have explained. Unless you are arguing that Bayonetta got inexplicably weaker between the end of Bayo 1 and the events of Bayo 2, the only argument that should be made here is if she scales to Aesir, there is no logical reason for her to be weaker than Loptr to any degree.
Bayo stomped a WEAKENED Jubileus. Not a full power Jubileus, who's equal to Aesir. There is nothing proving weakened Jubileus to be stronger than Loptr.Based on the fact that Aesir is equal to Jubileus and Sheba. Loki and Kid Loptr are both half of Aesir's power, adult Loptr/Prophet is kid Loptr after spending hundreds of years growing stronger by absorbing hate, but he still needed to steal Loki's Sovereign Power to get back to his original level of power, ie the same level of power that Bayonetta stomped at the end of Bayonetta 1.
Jubileus wasnt weakened though, on the contrary she was stronger than she would be normally due to posseing one of the Eyes of the worldThis whole point leans on the assumption that weakened Jubileus is stronger than Loptr which has not been proven. Bayo being weaker than Loptr does not imply that Bayo got weaker between 1 and 2.
...? My guy, Jubileus had one of the Eyes of the World, she wasnt weakened at all, she was stronger than she is normally.Bayo stomped a WEAKENED Jubileus. Not a full power Jubileus, who's equal to Aesir. There is nothing proving weakened Jubileus to be stronger than Loptr.
Uncountable and countable is something solely userd by us on the wiki for low1C or 2A.What kind of infinite do the scans mean? Countably or uncountably? Cuz if you were to combine uncountably infinite with the "beyond all space and time" statement, that could be grounds for 5D/Low 1-C as opposed to 2-A
Abyss' evaluation is currently extrordinarily flawed and not only contradicts the entire power scale of the game but ignores basically every feat Bayo hasI agree with OP on 2A and Fate Hax. For scaling to hero cast without eyes.... I will defer to consensus at end of thread by Bayo experts, but I lean towards Abyss' evaluation.
Weekly. Really? One eye Jubileus has been treated as weakened literally since the profile was ******* created. you were the one who made the profile and said I quote, "Is significantly weaker using one eye of the world." Never in the history of this site have we treated Jubileus in the state she was in, in bayo 1 as equal to Aesir. If we were to go off of what you're claiming here, Bayonetta and Balder would be massively stronger than Aesir. Hell if you're claiming that Jubileus is stronger than normal in Bayo 1, than one eye jubileus would be stronger than Aesir.Jubileus wasnt weakened though, on the contrary she was stronger than she would be normally due to posseing one of the Eyes of the world
...? My guy, Jubileus had one of the Eyes of the World, she wasnt weakened at all, she was stronger than she is normally.
Your evaluation is currently extrodinarily stubborn and conveniently ignores clear cut showings from interactions throughout the entirety of the second game.Abyss' evaluation is currently extrordinarily flawed and not only contradicts the entire power scale of the game but ignores basically every feat Bayo has
The interactions are Bayonetta winning her fights with Loptr, Young Loptr, and Aesir, with them only giving her momentary trouble by using hax or literally just running away. with further context, said wins are backed up by:Your evaluation is currently extrodinarily stubborn and conveniently ignores clear cut showings from interactions throughout the entirety of the second game.
All of these I have addressed. The audacity to claim I've been ignoring evidence when you have refused to back up your claims with scans, ignoring SEVERAL replies (with scans) debunking your notation that Bayo was only slowed down by hax, and using logic not accepted on profiles.The interactions are Bayonetta winning her fights with Loptr, Young Loptr, and Aesir, with them only giving her momentary trouble by using hax or literally just running away. with further context, said wins are backed up by:
So no, the one who is conveniently ignoring evidence here is you.
- The end of the previous game where she canonically beat an empowered Jubileus
- Right Eye Jubileus is significantly stronger than her base form which is 2x stronger than Loptr as Loptr is half of base Aesir's power
- The fights in the second game where she beat Jeanne-absorbed Alraune (who was described as rivaling Queen Sheba in power)
- Her fights against Father Rodin (who is comparable to Jubileus in her prime) and Infinite Rodin (who is stronger than Sheba in her prime)
- (Of note, Rodin himself outright states at the end of his fights with her that she stomped him)
- The fights in Muspelheim where she outright beats both forms of Loptr as well as Aesir
- The guidebook outright confirming that Loptr in both forms had to resort to trickery as Bayo would have won otherwise
I don't know much about translating personally but this feels like it should be tackled first ^. I'd hate to go through all this arguing just for it to turn out useless anyways.Need to double check on the translations, last time I checked someone translated the text to say he observed multiple possibilities, not endless or infinite possibilities.
My guy, there is nothing to address, these are all feats that blatantly and canonically happened. You are effectively arguing that Bayo randomly became significantly weaker in the time between the end of Bayonetta 1 and the beginning of Bayonetta 2 to the point of being weaker than someone who is canonically half as strong as multiple bosses that she has canonically casually beaten in both games, with your evidence being that she was hit by a laser and then mindhaxxed in one fight, pushed away by her opponent who then destroyed the arena in the second fight, and then temporarily incapacitated via hax in the third, when the circumstances for all three fights have been explained to you multiple times and the evidence that backs up said circumstances has been presented multiple times.All of these I have adressed.
Now that I remember I think we had a friend check it in discord, I could maybe get a scan of himI don't know much about translating personally but this feels like it should be tackled first ^. I'd hate to go through all this arguing just for it to turn out useless anyways.
Okay lmao. I'm not wasting my time on this anymore. I'll let people read and decide what they think. I'll just wrap this up by saying these few things. One eye Jubileus being > Loptr is something we've never accepted on profiles. I have never mentioned mindhax as evidence of loptr being stronger than bayo. The arena being destroyed shouldn't have been a problem for bayo in the second fight considering that she can fly. And bayo was clearly overpowered well before being incapacitated through the eye.My guy, there is nothing to address, these are all feats that blatantly and canonically happened. You are effectively arguing that Bayo randomly became significantly weaker in the time between the end of Bayonetta 1 and the beginning of Bayonetta 2 to the point of being weaker than someone who is canonically half as strong as multiple bosses that she has canonically casually beaten in both games, with your evidence being that she was hit by a laser and then mindhaxxed in one fight, pushed away by her opponent who then destroyed the arena in the second fight, and then temporarily incapacitated in the third, when the circumstances for all three fights have been explained to you multiple times and the evidence that backs up said circumstances has been presented multiple times.
Friendly reminder that this happened in literally the same fightThe arena being destroyed shouldn't have been a problem for bayo in the second fight considering that she can fly.
Again, via the weakness of the Left EyeAnd bayo was clearly overpowered well before being incapacitated through the eye.
Friendly reminder that this happened in literally the same fight
For reference, Rodin in his base form alone is casually stronger than a bloodlusted Madama Butterfly
and Bayo stomped both of his prime forms
Again, via the weakness of the Left Eye
Someone else forcibly activating the Left Eye against Bayo's will temporarily incapacitates her
I added more videos to the responseWhy is all that relevant? Like at all? He drags a rock from outer space cool and all but that isn't his own striking strength, heck at the end he just slaps her ass and she stays down.
The left eye thing happens after he ragdolls Bayo through all the fight tho, the argument would work if he did that first to defeat her not after he has her eating dirt
Since a lot of these instances are left up to interpretation, I won’t automatically discredit anyone’s opinion. However, there are definitely some things that I suppose can be cleared up.Reacting involves speed, I'm not arguing about Bayo being on Loptr's speed level, I agree that she's equal in that regard. We're talking about AP here. Struggling for 15 seconds is quite a lot against someone who people in this thread are portraying to be vastly inferior to Bayo.
Also might I add that this is Loptr at his weakest. He's been feeding off of human hatred to increase his strength for the following 500 years, so this is loptr at his worst.
Correct, but this performance against Aesir doesn't add up when he's performed better against her in encounters in his SIGNIFICANTLY weaker forms.
Weakened Jubileus was still capable of uniting the trinity, and was able to create multiple universes. That’s more than anything Loptr has shown. Also why was Rodin considered iffy again?Prove that Weakened Jubileus > Loptr. Father Rodin scaling to Jubileus was determined to be iffy for scaling reasons and lack of insight on Jubileus' current state when Rodin resided in Paradiso. Alraune has no proof of being strong enough to match queen Sheba aside from her saying "I feel like I can become the queen of this realm." She has utterly no feats to back it up and her credibility is not very good considering that her entire character design is being ******* insane and mentally ill.
Well based off the translation provided yes, but it seems there could potentially be a contradicting translation so again we might wanna get that out of the way before we get too deep into arguing over scaling.All this being said, I’m happy pretty much everyone agrees with 2-A for Aesir at least.
I don't expect creators to care about powerscaling or the mathematics of infinity. I'm not asking what kind of infinity the scan is actively implying, I'm just asking what kind it should be construed as given the context.Uncountable and countable is something solely userd by us on the wiki for low1C or 2A.
Fiction doesn't care about battleboarding lingo and hyperspecific mathematical terms. So even simple infinite is enough for low1C.
Light, darkness, and chaos.
Of the three worlds that have been divided since the beginning, Aesir is the one who controls chaos.
It is said that Aesir, who possessed the power to be an "observer of history," lived in a dimension completely different from our own and observed history from a perspective that transcended time and space, a state in which multiple possibilities overlapped at the same time.
The name "Aesir," which means "god" in the language of mankind, was not a term of faith, worship, teaching, or ideals, but rather simply because there was no other word to describe a supernatural being that was beyond the comprehension of mankind. And if the legends of Noatun are true, it was mankind itself that divided the god of chaos into two personalities, "Loki" and "Loput.
Aesir gave humanity the power of his "eye of the world," which gave humanity the concept of "choice. But it also gave rise to the concepts of "victory" and "defeat," "truth" and "falsehood. Hate, betrayal, jealousy, and lust. The concept of "choice"
The concept of "choice" was quickly consumed by mankind like a drug, and eventually Aesir himself, who had empowered mankind, once again awakened a "strong passion" for power.
The Aesir, who possesses the power to "transcend time and space," regains the power of "observer," which means that the fate of the entire world, from the present, to the past, to the future, is in his hands. However, it is unmistakably mankind that has planted its mind in Aesir. Whatever the Aesir does after regaining its power, it will be the sin of humanity as a whole...
You do realize that this thread is revising those pages to change those descriptions right? Because theyre not accurate at all? And i dont appreciate your claim that Comic is the only one posting scans when ive provided just as many clips from the games as proof of my arguments.Alright, finally back from exams.
@WeeklyBattles I bring this up because that's what's accepted on the pages in Loptr's base form without the eyes.
> Low Multiverse level (Defeated Bayonetta on several occasions)
If you're going to play dumb again I'm not going to bother discussing this with you as you've shown time and time again to dodge my questions and fail to provide scans for entire discussions. Unless you want to back up your claims and actually post scans, let Comicgyal argue from here on out cause she at least can bother to provide scans for her claims.