Before Bayonetta 3 : Tier 2 Upgrades

[Comicgyal]

I’ve been pushing this one off since I’m admittedly a bit lazy, but since Bayonetta 3 is on the horizon I might as well get some things done. So, this thread will be for some tier 2 upgrades, before we get into the meat and potatoes that is tier 1 (later.)

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The God of Chaos

The God of Chaos
AESIR

Light, darkness, and the chaos in-between.

Of the three realms that were divided at the dawn of time, the realm in-between ― of Chaos ― is controlled by Aesir. With the power of the "Overseer of History", Aesir lived in a dimension completely different from ours, from where he observed endless possibilities that overlapped to form history from a viewpoint beyond all time and space.

The name "Aesir" means "god" in the language of mankind; not due to faith, morals or dogmas, but because humans could not think of a better word to describe him, a supernatural being beyond our comprehension. If the legends of Noatun's folklore are to be believed, mankind itself divided the God of Chaos into his two personas: Loki and Loptr.

Aesir granted mankind the power of his "Eyes of the World", and with it, they gained free will. With that, came ideas of triumph and defeat; truth and falsehood; and feelings of hatred, betrayal, envy and scorn. Mankind became intoxicated by their newly gained free will, which eventually gave Aesir a wish to take back the power he'd given them.

When Aesir ― a being that can transcend time and space ― regains the power of the "Overseer", the fate of the entire world will be in his hands, be it in the past, present or future. However, there is no doubt it was mankind that sowed the seeds of evil in Aesir. Whatever he does after regaining his power, it will have been retribution for their sins.

This translation is thanks to The Ninth Hour. (9thHourScans on Twitter)

The important bit (relevant to this crt atleast) is the beginning part, where it explains that he observed “Endless” possibilities. From many threads before, the use of the word “Endless” is synonymous with infinite in Bayonettas lore. Meaning Aesir was observing infinite possibilities.

In Aesirs attacks, the sigils (which have to be translated from an ingame language) says: "MAN SEES ONLY HIS REALITY AND MAKES IT HIS WORLD - AESIR SEES ALL REALITIES AND THEY ARE THE WORLD".

Proving that aesir is not observing a singular reality (the reality of Bayonetta 2) but all realities at the same time. Proving that there is in-fact an infinite multiverse.

Even if that isn’t enough for you, Bayonetta 3 has proved time and time again that we’re dealing with a Multiverse.

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Since I’ve proved that it’s an infinite multiverse, all that’s left is scaling. Not only do these universes exist because Aesir is observing them into existence, but with the eye he can affect his observations across all time.

This would scale to Aesir with both of his eyes, which would scale to Jubileus, which Rodin scales to, and so on. Everyone that is already 2-C would become 2-A.

---

Oh, and here’s a quick EOTW hax addition while I’m on the topic.

Fate Manipulation: The eyes of the world determine destiny.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Fate manip w the eyes is fine.

little iffy on 2-A scaling to everyone who’s 2-C. Iirc we scaled Rodin to weakened jubileus as a compromise to some inconsistencies. I might be mistaken though, but I’ll have to look for that thread later.

I’ll also check out the 2-A stuff when I get home from work.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

We've already discussed this so you know I agree

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Fate manip w the eyes is fine.

little iffy on 2-A scaling to everyone who’s 2-C. Iirc we scaled Rodin to weakened jubileus as a compromise to some inconsistencies. I might be mistaken though, but I’ll have to look for that thread later.

Thing is theres no reason to, its explicitly stated that peak jubileus feared him

 

[KLOL506]

This looks good. I agree with everything in OP.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Thing is theres no reason to, its explicitly stated that peak jubileus feared him

I could’ve sworn there was some inconsistency found that I can’t remember off the top of my head. Could be wrong though. Again I’ll look for that thread when I get home in a few hours.

 

[Dalesean027]

Following

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree

 

[BayonettaxMinaj]

Seems stable enough for me. I completely agree.

 

[Strife304]

I completely agree.

 

[Lukewoesal007]

Agree.

 

[Ruhyah]

makes sense

 

[Theglassman12]

Need to double check on the translations, last time I checked someone translated the text to say he observed multiple possibilities, not endless or infinite possibilities.

As for everyone getting buffed to 2-A, I hard disagree with Bayo or Balder or Jeanne scaling as the first two constantly struggle against an Aesir without the eyes in the entirety of Bayo 2, if the translations is legit then I can see 2-A scaling to characters with both eyes, but everyone else I hard disagree.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

As for everyone getting buffed to 2-A, I hard disagree with Bayo or Balder or Jeanne scaling as the first two constantly struggle against an Aesir without the eyes in the entirety of Bayo 2, if the translations is legit then I can see 2-A scaling to characters with both eyes, but everyone else I hard disagree.

Said it once I'll say it again, they do not struggle with eyeless Aesir ever. Prophet had to rely on mindhaxing Bayo so he could get an opening, kid Loptr had to resort to destroying the battlefield and fleeing, and Aesir only beat bayo the first time because he forcibly activated the Left Eye against her will which canonically incapacitated her

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Iirc even the guidebook confirmed that Bayo never struggled with them

 

[Theglassman12]

@WeeklyBattles Yes they do, if you seriously tell me they do not struggle with eyeless Aesir whatsoever then you haven't played the same game I did because we literallly see Bayonetta struggle numerous times in the game when he had no eyes. Neither of these scenes have him using hax or the environment when she's already struggling before they even bother using the hax. If you can give me legit scans instead of making random claims out of nowhere like you always do I'd really appreciate it.

Then the guidebook is wrong, cause the games show otherwise.

 

[BayonettaxMinaj]

Need to double check on the translations, last time I checked someone translated the text to say he observed multiple possibilities, not endless or infinite possibilities.

As for everyone getting buffed to 2-A, I hard disagree with Bayo or Balder or Jeanne scaling as the first two constantly struggle against an Aesir without the eyes in the entirety of Bayo 2, if the translations is legit then I can see 2-A scaling to characters with both eyes, but everyone else I hard disagree.

Bayonetta fought Aesir alone in Muspilhiem and beat him, same with all the Loptr variants. Plus, when Loki erased the EotW, and ONLY THE EYES, Loptr’s power went back to normal and Bayo & Balder beat the Hell out of him.

 

[Theglassman12]

@BayonettaxMinaj why is Muspelheim considered canon here? Especially when it contradicts the main story events?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@WeeklyBattles Yes they do, if you seriously tell me they do not struggle with eyeless Aesir whatsoever then you haven't played the same game I did because we literallly see Bayonetta struggle numerous times in the game when he had no eyes. Neither of these scenes have him using hax or the environment when she's already struggling before they even bother using the hax. If you can give me legit scans instead of making random claims out of nowhere like you always do I'd really appreciate it.

Then the guidebook is wrong, cause the games show otherwise.

She was not struggling, this argument has been brought up and disproved numerous times already so I dont see why you feel it is necessary to bring it up again. Hell, even the clip you're using for evidence literally comes seconds after bayo casually busted a city-sized meteor with no issue, in the same fight where it is confirmed that Loptr had to flee because bayo would have beaten him, hence why he punched her away and then destroyed the arena

 

[Comicgyal]

@WeeklyBattles Yes they do, if you seriously tell me they do not struggle with eyeless Aesir whatsoever then you haven't played the same game I did because we literallly see Bayonetta struggle numerous times in the game when he had no eyes. Neither of these scenes have him using hax or the environment when she's already struggling before they even bother using the hax. If you can give me legit scans instead of making random claims out of nowhere like you always do I'd really appreciate it.

Then the guidebook is wrong, cause the games show otherwise.

Unsure why these instances are being mentioned. These characters didn’t beat Bayonetta, or put her out of commission. At best they staggered her for a time.

Even still, these moments don’t matter. As eyeless Bayo and Balder were capable of holding their own, and even damaging double eyed Aesir. As most things in fiction are, battles are a matter of circumstance. Just because one situation didn’t go her way, doesn’t mean anything.

 

[Comicgyal]

And yes, the arguments of Bayonetta “struggling” with any variant of Aesir has been throughly discussed and disregarded by now. We won’t be having a circular discussion on whether or not she struggled again.

 

[BayonettaxMinaj]

@BayonettaxMinaj why is Muspelheim considered canon here? Especially when it contradicts the main story events?

1.) Because it canonically exists, in the game & the lore.
2.) Because it contradicts nothing. Bayonetta has consistently shown herself capable of reacting to Loptr, countering his attacks, and damaging him. Hell she sent him flying multiple times.
3.) Bayo also managed to hold off Aesir solo after Balder got blasted to God-Knows-Where long enough for Loki to erase the eyes, something she wasn’t even planning on or aware that he could do btw. And like in all the other fights, she kept up, countered his attacks, and proved herself capable of damaging him.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Said it once I'll say it again, they do not struggle with eyeless Aesir ever. Prophet had to rely on mindhaxing Bayo so he could get an opening, kid Loptr had to resort to destroying the battlefield and fleeing, and Aesir only beat bayo the first time because he forcibly activated the Left Eye against her will which canonically incapacitated her

Fight at gates of hell: gameplay battle ends, loptr blasts bayo twice bringing her to her knees. BEFORE memoru hazing

Kid loptr: blocks her attacks, knocking her back and KOing her by throwing a destroyed portion of the clock tower at her and THEN flees so he can kill Rosa.

Fimblventur: fends off both Bayo AND Balder without any signs of effort.

After absorbing the right eye: unfazed by summons and the puts bayo in a chokehold before even using the sovereign power to take the eye

I don’t think Bayo level people are vastly below loptr but I have trouble accepting one eye level peeps as 2-A through Rodin being considered equal to full power jub & sheeba when aesir, their equivalent, in his lesser form is above them by a noticeable margin or at the very least comparable to them.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Fight at gates of hell: gameplay battle ends, loptr blasts bayo twice bringing her to her knees. BEFORE memoru hazing

And yet she is shown to defeat him with no issue in the fight itself as well as withstand the same lasers with minimal damage. At best that would be PIS due to her having multiple feats that put her well above Prophet.

Kid loptr: blocks her attacks, knocking her back and KOing her by throwing a destroyed portion of the clock tower at her and THEN flees so he can kill Rosa.

Highly suggest you rewatch this fight my guy. Literally seconds before he destroyed the arena Bayo busted a city-sized meteor he threw at her with zero effort. He also didnt KO her, all he did was push her into the cliff wall and run away, which is further confirmed by the guidebook stating that she would have defeated him if he didnt run away.

After absorbing the right eye: unfazed by summons and the puts bayo in a chokehold before even using the sovereign power to take the eye

Summons are weaker than Bayo so that tracks. Only reason he was able to do that was bayo had her back turned due to being mid-summon, and he was only able to keep her there due to the aforementioned weakness of someone else activating her eye incapacitating her.

I don’t think Bayo level people are vastly below loptr but I have trouble accepting one eye level peeps as 2-A through Rodin being considered equal to full power jub & sheeba when aesir, their equivalent, in his lesser form is above them by a noticeable margin or at the very least comparable to them.

And Bayo stomped both of Rodin's prime forms by his own admission.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Hell, by the game's own scaling Loptr is weaker than One-Eye Jubileus that Bayo stomped in the first game. Arguing that she is weaker than Loptr makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[Comicgyal]

It’s also good to note that Loptr passively gets stronger from hatred. He’s been alive since the beginning of time, so he is by far NOT weak.

 

[BayonettaxMinaj]

Fight at gates of hell: gameplay battle ends, loptr blasts bayo twice bringing her to her knees. BEFORE memoru hazing

Kid loptr: blocks her attacks, knocking her back and KOing her by throwing a destroyed portion of the clock tower at her and THEN flees so he can kill Rosa.

Fimblventur: fends off both Bayo AND Balder without any signs of effort.

After absorbing the right eye: unfazed by summons and the puts bayo in a chokehold before even using the sovereign power to take the eye

I don’t think Bayo level people are vastly below loptr but I have trouble accepting one eye level peeps as 2-A through Rodin being considered equal to full power jub & sheeba when aesir, their equivalent, in his lesser form is above them by a noticeable margin or at the very least comparable to them.

Prophet: Bayonetta casually reacted to & dodged Loptr’s attack after he teleported to her blind spot, destroyed his tower, and sent him flying. At the end, she struggled to get up FOR 15 SECONDS and got back up like nothing happened. THEN Loptr mind haxed her.

•Kid Loptr: Bayonetta reacted to & dodged his sneak attack, bro literally tried to snipe her. She then countered his meteor and he ran away from a fight he started. Bro literally said he was gonna kill her to keep the eye from Loki, & his file backs it up. He had to kill Rosa so he could keep manipulating Balder, because he lost to Bayonetta.

•Adult Loptr: Balder, whom Bayo has CONSISTENTLY BEEN SHOWN TO EQUAL proved himself to be a threat to Loptr. He blitzed him, damaged him, and easily dodged his attacks. It took Balder jumping in front of an attack meant for Bayonetta for Loptr to hit him once. If Bayo had helped him instead of worrying about Loki, they could of killed him, & the final phase of the fight proves this. And what’s worse, Balder stopped an attack from Aesir in his base form, when he’s supposed to be at his weakest. Loptr got the eyes due to hax not raw power.

•Aesir: Bayonetta managed to fend off Aesir by herself, counter his attacks, keep pace with him, damage him, and she didn’t have a scratch on her. Lastly, Loki erased the Eyes of the World ONLY. Not Loptr, not the sovereign power, not the prophetic power, to the remembrance of time, nor humanities’ evil. Loptr’s power went back to normal and Bayo & Balder wrecked him proving that they could’ve done it from the beginning.

•The Lost Chapter: Bayonetta beat Aesir and all of the Loptr variants alone in Muspilhiem. Muspilhiem exists within the lore & the game, and since it exists outside of Time, the matter of when this event took place is irrelevant.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

And yet she is shown to defeat him with no issue in the fight itself as well as withstand the same lasers with minimal damage. At best that would be PIS due to her having multiple feats that put her well above Prophet.

She obviously didn’t defeat him though since he literally continued the fight in the cutscene and brought her to her knees. She knocks him back and then he immediately fires a beam at her, followed by another. Not sure I'd call that being defeated. Yeah she withstood the beams but she was still harmed by them, as evidenced by her grunts of pain, her being completely knocked back by the blast, and the appearance of the roses on her body.

She even shows some exhaustion when Loptr starts insulting her.

Nothing I see her puts her well above him. At best she's on his level.

Highly suggest you rewatch this fight my guy. Literally seconds before he destroyed the arena Bayo busted a city-sized meteor he threw at her with zero effort. He also didnt KO her, all he did was push her into the cliff wall and run away, which is further confirmed by the guidebook stating that she would have defeated him if he didnt run away.

Not sure what relevance the meteor busting has here. Blocks her kick, knocks her into some kind of wall (not clear if its cliff or falling debris but thats irrelevant), she's still standing on the clocktower platform and then he proceeds to crush her with some debris he grabbed and then flees. The very next cutscene we see her in, she's on the floor, grabs her head and stands up.

I'd like to see a scan of this guidebook statement if you could please. I've never heard of such a statement before.

Summons are weaker than Bayo so that tracks. Only reason he was able to do that was bayo had her back turned due to being mid-summon, and he was only able to keep her there due to the aforementioned weakness of someone else activating her eye incapacitating her.

The chokehold does not involve activating the eye. Grabs her, says three whole sentences to her before we even start to see the eye being taken.

And Bayo stomped both of Rodin's prime forms by his own admission.

Yes I’m aware of this and I agree with that. My issue is again, scaling Rodin to the god tiers when his L to bayo shows an inconsistency in my view.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Prophet: Bayonetta casually reacted to & dodged Loptr’s attack after he teleported to her blind spot, destroyed his tower, and sent him flying. At the end, she struggled to get up FOR 15 SECONDS and got back up like nothing happened. THEN Loptr mind haxed her.

Reacting involves speed, I'm not arguing about Bayo being on Loptr's speed level, I agree that she's equal in that regard. We're talking about AP here. Struggling for 15 seconds is quite a lot against someone who people in this thread are portraying to be vastly inferior to Bayo.

•Kid Loptr: Bayonetta reacted to & dodged his sneak attack, bro literally tried to snipe her. She then countered his meteor and he ran away from a fight he started. Bro literally said he was gonna kill her to keep the eye from Loki, & his file backs it up. He had to kill Rosa so he could keep manipulating Balder, because he lost to Bayonetta.

Again, I'm not arguing against Bayo scaling speed-wise. Meteor was an object thrown in an attempt to slow bayo down that was destroyed by a summon. Yes, Loptr did say he was going to eliminate bayo, which he did fail at doing, but he didn't necessarily lose the fight either. Also might I add that this is Loptr at his weakest. He's been feeding off of human hatred to increase his strength for the following 500 years, so this is loptr at his worst.

•Adult Loptr: Balder, whom Bayo has CONSISTENTLY BEEN SHOWN TO EQUAL proved himself to be a threat to Loptr. He blitzed him, damaged him, and easily dodged his attacks. It took Balder jumping in front of an attack meant for Bayonetta for Loptr to hit him once. If Bayo had helped him instead of worrying about Loki, they could of killed him, & the final phase of the fight proves this. And what’s worse, Balder stopped an attack from Aesir in his base form, when he’s supposed to be at his weakest. Loptr got the eyes due to hax not raw power.

• The first attack in this fight is Balder striking Loptr's faceguard in a cheap shot in which Loptr had his guard dropped expected Loki to be the target.
• Loptr after expressing his disappointment reacts to Balder attempting to attack again with a couple of beams which balder is forced to dodge.
• Balder then takes the shot for Bayo who let her guard down, knocking both of them back and rendering Balder unconscious for a short bit. We then see him recover consciousness during Loptr's monologue.
• Bayo tries to shoot at Loptr who's occupied taking the soverign power, to which Loptr reacts and blocks the bullets effortlessly.

Yes Balder did stop an attack from Aesir but that goes with what I say directly below.

•Aesir: Bayonetta managed to fend off Aesir by herself, counter his attacks, keep pace with him, damage him, and she didn’t have a scratch on her.

Correct, but this performance against Aesir doesn't add up when he's performed better against her in encounters in his SIGNIFICANTLY weaker forms.

Lastly, Loki erased the Eyes of the World ONLY. Not Loptr, not the sovereign power, not the prophetic power, to the remembrance of time, nor humanities’ evil. Loptr’s power went back to normal and Bayo & Balder wrecked him proving that they could’ve done it from the beginning.

Okay, but we see him limping, gasping, and barely even able to stand before they even touch him after losing the eyes. Even then they didn't even do anything significant to him until they summoned Omne. And if he fails to land in Gamorrah's mouth he regathers himself and flies at the screen causing an instant game over. And if you wanna argue non-canon on this we've used the same type of scene with Jubileus in Bayo 1 to justify scalings for other things in the past.

•The Lost Chapter: Bayonetta beat Aesir and all of the Loptr variants alone in Muspilhiem. Muspilhiem exists within the lore & the game, and since it exists outside of Time, the matter of when this event took place is irrelevant.

Like Glass, I question the viability of using Muspilhiem especially when the events of that world contradicts the story events. But I'm neutral on this regard in particular.

 

[Comicgyal]

I’m at work, but will respond to everything soon.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

For what it’s worth I agree with 2-A itself. Still disagree with scaling it to one eye folk.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

I'm not super knowledgeable on Bayonetta but with the information presented by the OP and those arguing 2A for full power/both eyes Aesir seems rather obvious (and to be honest I would have gone for Low 1-C if the thing in the OP is correct).

I also agree with Abyss on Bayonetta and basically anyone scaling to Aesir, the guy is making sound arguments and pulling videos that corroborate his words.

About the muspelheim thing, it really seems more like bonus areas than a canonical fight, from my experience I would say it's something like the void imd DMC 5 which is stated to be a pocket dimension for hunters to train (which Ofc isn't Canon) but Idk. I'm agreeing with Abyss here tho, Bayo suddenly being able to fight him there when in the story she was getting slapped doesn't make sense.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I also agree with Abyss on Bayonetta and basically anyone scaling to Aesir, the guy is making sound arguments and pulling videos that corroborate his words.

The problem with that is its already accepted that Bayo scales to Aesir, the argument they are makig holds no weight

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

The problem with that is its already accepted that Bayo scales to Aesir, the argument they are makig holds no weight

From the videos I saw she kinda was getting ragdolled by him in weaker forms tho, even his profile states that he has beaten her in multiple occasions

 

[WeeklyBattles]

From the videos I saw she kinda was getting ragdolled by him in weaker forms tho, even his profile states that he has beaten her in multiple occasions

Again, she wasnt, as myself, Comic, and Minaj have explained. He only ever beat her with hax or by running away, which is coroborated by both the Musphelheim trials and the game's own guidebook, and by the game's own in-verse power scale Bayo being weaker than Loptr makes no sense as Loptr is weaker than One-Eye Jubileus, who Bayonetta stomped at the end of the first game. Unless an argumet is being made that Bayonetta inexplicably got significantly weaker between Bayonetta 1 and the events of Bayonetta 2, the only argument to be made is whether or not she scales to Aesir. Anything in regards to Loptr she would scale above by default due to the events of Bayonetta 1's ending.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Again, she wasnt, as myself, Comic, and Minaj have explained. He only ever beat her with hax or by running away, which is coroborated by both the Musphelheim trials and the game's own guidebook, and by the game's own in-verse power scale Bayo being weaker than Loptr makes no sense as Loptr is weaker than One-Eye Jubileus, who Bayonetta stomped at the end of the first game. Unless an argumet is being made that Bayonetta inexplicably got significantly weaker between Bayonetta 1 and the events of Bayonetta 2, the only argument to be made is whether or not she scales to Aesir. Anything in regards to Loptr she would scale above by default due to the events of Bayonetta 1's ending.

The problem here is that your explanations go against what the video shows, one of those has loptr lasering Bayo and ragdolling her all around before the eye is activated, another one with the kid slamming her around, so on and so forth.

The trial, like someone said above, contradicts what the story of the game has and its canonicty becomes dubious considering it is basically a bonus arena.

As for Jubileus and Bayo 1 stuff, I'm now knowledgeable but someone said the kid has been getting power from hatred for over 500 years, what's to say he isn't already stronger than those guys?

For now I'll keep my position but it may change depending on how you guys tackle this.

 

[Comicgyal]

If Loptr is stronger than let’s say.. Jubileus or Rodin, it changes nothing. If anything, it would make her losing a bit more understandable. Characters can be the same tier, and lose to one another. Bayonetta “losing” to aesir a few times doesn’t mean she’s not 2-A, especially when there are circumstances around her losses.

Also, I haven’t seen the inconsistencies that were talked about of Bayonetta 1. Can someone reiterate them to me?

 

[SheevShezarrine]

What kind of infinite do the scans mean? Countably or uncountably? Cuz if you were to combine uncountably infinite with the "beyond all space and time" statement, that could be grounds for 5D/Low 1-C as opposed to 2-A

 

[Lightning_XXI]

I agree with 2-A

Neutral on the scaling for now

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

The problem with that is its already accepted that Bayo scales to Aesir, the argument they are makig holds no weight

Incorrect. When Aesir, Full power Jub, and Sheba were upgraded to 2-C, one eye holders remained at 3-A. Later Rodin was tried at being upgraded to 2-C, but we settled for 3-A possibly higher. They were all later upgraded to 2-C because the One eye holders' got upgraded to 2-C through further elaboration on their feat.