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Bayonetta support
- Thread starter Comicgyal
- Start date
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- Tags
- bayonetta (verse)
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Yes, there is me, DragonMasterxyz, and WeeklyBattles.
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Yeah, I have a link to discord on my user page.
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@Comicgyal i assume this massive upgrade has got something to do with the blog you made on the wiki?
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@Theglassman12 Yeah, it does. But there aren’t many supporters so, it probably won’t go anywhere.
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Dont worry, whn i make my upgrade the verse will be in its proper tiering
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@Comicgyal you can still ask some other staff members for some input, I'll try to look through the blog to give my input.
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Yeah, thanks. It’d be a big help. I tried talking with a few people but it ultimately went nowhere, so I’d appreciate your take. I have another blog for Aesir specifically, but I’ve held off on making it.
Oh, and great job on your Blazblue CRT. I’m very knowledgeable on the verse, and your presentation was very well made.
Oh, and great job on your Blazblue CRT. I’m very knowledgeable on the verse, and your presentation was very well made.
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thanks, It'll take me a bit but I'll give my response to your blog as there's some things I find questionable, but others I'm ok with.
There’s no rush.
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Alright so the devices that manipulates the moon and sun to rotate, I don't think should scale to bayonetta or any of the witches or sages physically, let alone their magic, cause the whole point of the devices is to manipulate the sun and moon so that using their specific moves like moon walking, etc. is actually possible once certain criteria is met, and magic is just the fuel source for said device. It's the equivalent of having a normal human being use a key to activate a giant crane to carry cargo the weight of like 1000 tons. The human isn't actually doing the lifting here, just the device that's strong enough to do the lifting in the first place if that makes any sense, so I'm gonna have to disagree with the lifting strength.
Gravity Manipulation I feel like it could be some form of baseline resistance to gravity, rather than just her manipulating gravity, cause her being able to "break gravity's bonds" should be just her unrestricted by gravity on earth.
Light speed for bayonetta 1 I don't really agree with. Balder's statement of being as swift as light feels kinda vague, and the lasers she's outrunning aren't literally fired at her. They just form a pseudo wall that bayonetta has to navigate around it. If the light beams were directly fired AT HER, then I can definitely see the argument for her being light speed, though there's also the potential outlier this feat could be because Bayonetta's first fight with Loptr ended with him shooting 3 lasers at her, and she was unable to react to all 3 of them, the first time being a bit more apparent since nothing was distracting her but it was too fast for her to react to, so I'm gonna have to say no to light speed for bayonetta 1.
the higher dimensional existence part I don't agree with mostly because when they talk about the higher existence, they refer to their spiritual existence. Valiance in particular is flat out stated as thanks to its ascendant plane as a spiritual being, it lacks a physical form to begin with, so this would give all the first sphere angels Non Corporeal given they're stated to lack physical states. Higher dimensional existence would be them being beyond normal 3-D existence and just becoming a 4-D being, Zamasu when fused with the timeline in Dragon Ball Super is an example on what would constitutes as a higher dimensional existence.
the whole abstract existence here, I don't recall them being stated that they can live as long as whatever they embody exists unless I missed a lore statement about that somewhere, feel free to correct me on this. Cause we used to have abstract existence type 3, where it just gave you the whole "embody something but you aren't reliant on it", which got removed. At best I can see type 4 or 3 concept manipulation due to the whole "the concept of faith didn't exist until they were made" though I need to check if faith would be type 4 or 3.
the miracles line I feel like it could be a possible reality warping power, rather than probability manipulation.
the demons part same thing with the angels higher d existence, only if you have any scans that states the demons lack a physical form in the higher levels cause I don't recall it scaling to demons too.
If you have any scans that states Bayonetta has made a contract to every single demon in Inferno then I'm ok with her scaling to all of the demon's powers, but as of now I don't agree with this cause we're shown specific demons bayonetta can summon to the point that there's an entire book in both games to list off all the demons she can summon.
the concept of free wills feels like a bit of a stretch, given how when Loki mentioned that after the eyes were erased, humanity can walk on its own path without the need for the eyes. Same with the jealousy and hatred, etc.
regarding bayonetta and balder scaling to the eyes, I feel like it's a little bit of a stretch, mostly cause if they would scale with the abilities completely, Bayonetta wouldn't need Loki to warp the remembrance of times every single time one popped up and would've fixed it herself, and she and balder never really showcased seeing people's entire past, present and future by just looking at them, so any abilities they've shown to do with the eyes on their own, I'm ok with scaling to them.
Everything else that I haven't commented on I'm ok with, and now I must sleep, later.
Gravity Manipulation I feel like it could be some form of baseline resistance to gravity, rather than just her manipulating gravity, cause her being able to "break gravity's bonds" should be just her unrestricted by gravity on earth.
Light speed for bayonetta 1 I don't really agree with. Balder's statement of being as swift as light feels kinda vague, and the lasers she's outrunning aren't literally fired at her. They just form a pseudo wall that bayonetta has to navigate around it. If the light beams were directly fired AT HER, then I can definitely see the argument for her being light speed, though there's also the potential outlier this feat could be because Bayonetta's first fight with Loptr ended with him shooting 3 lasers at her, and she was unable to react to all 3 of them, the first time being a bit more apparent since nothing was distracting her but it was too fast for her to react to, so I'm gonna have to say no to light speed for bayonetta 1.
the higher dimensional existence part I don't agree with mostly because when they talk about the higher existence, they refer to their spiritual existence. Valiance in particular is flat out stated as thanks to its ascendant plane as a spiritual being, it lacks a physical form to begin with, so this would give all the first sphere angels Non Corporeal given they're stated to lack physical states. Higher dimensional existence would be them being beyond normal 3-D existence and just becoming a 4-D being, Zamasu when fused with the timeline in Dragon Ball Super is an example on what would constitutes as a higher dimensional existence.
the whole abstract existence here, I don't recall them being stated that they can live as long as whatever they embody exists unless I missed a lore statement about that somewhere, feel free to correct me on this. Cause we used to have abstract existence type 3, where it just gave you the whole "embody something but you aren't reliant on it", which got removed. At best I can see type 4 or 3 concept manipulation due to the whole "the concept of faith didn't exist until they were made" though I need to check if faith would be type 4 or 3.
the miracles line I feel like it could be a possible reality warping power, rather than probability manipulation.
the demons part same thing with the angels higher d existence, only if you have any scans that states the demons lack a physical form in the higher levels cause I don't recall it scaling to demons too.
If you have any scans that states Bayonetta has made a contract to every single demon in Inferno then I'm ok with her scaling to all of the demon's powers, but as of now I don't agree with this cause we're shown specific demons bayonetta can summon to the point that there's an entire book in both games to list off all the demons she can summon.
the concept of free wills feels like a bit of a stretch, given how when Loki mentioned that after the eyes were erased, humanity can walk on its own path without the need for the eyes. Same with the jealousy and hatred, etc.
regarding bayonetta and balder scaling to the eyes, I feel like it's a little bit of a stretch, mostly cause if they would scale with the abilities completely, Bayonetta wouldn't need Loki to warp the remembrance of times every single time one popped up and would've fixed it herself, and she and balder never really showcased seeing people's entire past, present and future by just looking at them, so any abilities they've shown to do with the eyes on their own, I'm ok with scaling to them.
Everything else that I haven't commented on I'm ok with, and now I must sleep, later.
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@Theglassman12 Theres actually a TON of lightspeed feats in the first game, most of the mid-level bosses utilize natural light thatBayo canonically dodges on top of Bayo having a casual Rel+ calc from the fight with Balder and an MFTL+ feat for some of the fodder. Seeing as Loptr currently scales to MFTL, his lasers are way faster than lightspeed and thus a non-equivalence here.
All of the first-sphere angels already have non-corporeal and the Virtues already have Abstract Existence. Theres actually four or five direct statements of them being abstract conceptual entities in the lore.
As for th part about seeing the past, she has actually shown that ability, numerous times. We flat out see her directly viewing flashbacks in both games.
All of the first-sphere angels already have non-corporeal and the Virtues already have Abstract Existence. Theres actually four or five direct statements of them being abstract conceptual entities in the lore.
As for th part about seeing the past, she has actually shown that ability, numerous times. We flat out see her directly viewing flashbacks in both games.
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The gravity manipulation feat isn’t a resistance, the point of mentioning the demon in the book article was to explain they could witch walk without the moon. “However, records state that witch walk (defying gravity) was powered by a pact with a particularly powerful demon who could break gravity’s bonds. And not by the common moon lit source.” They’re basically saying the witches could use moon walk with a demon, who was able to manipulate gravity. It also doesn’t just apply to earth, because Jeanne can run on a Jubileus’ body in space. Without the need of any flight ability, or her motorcycle.
There are many light speed feats, some angels in Bayonetta specifically use light speed attacks. I could bring direct examples, but the most common one is the angel Joy. Who shoots light based attacks at Bayonetta during their fight, along with many other instances in Bayonetta 2. Bayonetta getting high by Loptrs beams, is more equated to him overpowering her in that instance. He used two of them after knocking her down after all.
The spiritual existence can be equated to dimensions, since in Bayonetta there is an apparent hierarchy. There are four main dimensions, inferno, earth, paradiso, and the in between. humans are only able to interact with angels, whose spiritual existence is low enough for them to comprehend. The in between dimension represents this, angels with a low spiritual existence have form to them, but go a bit higher and they’re seen as blurs. Go even higher, and humans can’t interact / will never cross paths with them at all. It’s because these angels have such a higher existence, the humans can’t even comprehend them as a blur. Also the angels equated to being close to existence of Aesir, is blatantly higher dimensional existence. Since Aesir himself is higher dimensional.
either or works.
I say demons scale, because the demons constantly fight against these higher dimensional angels. In the final battle you see higher level angels and demons teaming up to fight Jeanne.
i only added powers from demons she summoned, didn’t say she contracted every single demon. I only listed a few abilities from the ones she used in the book of inferno.
The eyes created those concepts, but destroying the eyes doesn’t mean they were erased. Loki did say that, but that doesn’t take away from the fact the eyes created those concepts to begin with. His statement is ultimately irrelevant, since these concepts have already been well established with the eyes. If he were making these concepts anew, then it’d be worth looking into.
That can’t be a stretch, since the two use the eyes in the game multiple times. They don’t scale to the power of both combined (which is just ap + dimensions really) but the hax either one brings. Since the humans created concepts with one eye, not both. Bayonetta relying on Loki, is because Bayonettas eye is
1. Not suited for that.
each eye has a different set of skills.
What Loki is doing, is what the right eye would be used for. Just because they haven’t showcased it, doesn’t mean they don’t scale. It’s powers available to them, just because they have an eye. Balder shows luka his memories in Bayonetta 1, and Bayonetta sees through Loki’s deception . Another power of the eye.
There’s a clear difference from their normal skill set, and when they’re using the eyes.
Thanks for doing this, I’ll add more supporting evidence to my blog.
There are many light speed feats, some angels in Bayonetta specifically use light speed attacks. I could bring direct examples, but the most common one is the angel Joy. Who shoots light based attacks at Bayonetta during their fight, along with many other instances in Bayonetta 2. Bayonetta getting high by Loptrs beams, is more equated to him overpowering her in that instance. He used two of them after knocking her down after all.
The spiritual existence can be equated to dimensions, since in Bayonetta there is an apparent hierarchy. There are four main dimensions, inferno, earth, paradiso, and the in between. humans are only able to interact with angels, whose spiritual existence is low enough for them to comprehend. The in between dimension represents this, angels with a low spiritual existence have form to them, but go a bit higher and they’re seen as blurs. Go even higher, and humans can’t interact / will never cross paths with them at all. It’s because these angels have such a higher existence, the humans can’t even comprehend them as a blur. Also the angels equated to being close to existence of Aesir, is blatantly higher dimensional existence. Since Aesir himself is higher dimensional.
either or works.
I say demons scale, because the demons constantly fight against these higher dimensional angels. In the final battle you see higher level angels and demons teaming up to fight Jeanne.
i only added powers from demons she summoned, didn’t say she contracted every single demon. I only listed a few abilities from the ones she used in the book of inferno.
The eyes created those concepts, but destroying the eyes doesn’t mean they were erased. Loki did say that, but that doesn’t take away from the fact the eyes created those concepts to begin with. His statement is ultimately irrelevant, since these concepts have already been well established with the eyes. If he were making these concepts anew, then it’d be worth looking into.
That can’t be a stretch, since the two use the eyes in the game multiple times. They don’t scale to the power of both combined (which is just ap + dimensions really) but the hax either one brings. Since the humans created concepts with one eye, not both. Bayonetta relying on Loki, is because Bayonettas eye is
1. Not suited for that.
each eye has a different set of skills.
What Loki is doing, is what the right eye would be used for. Just because they haven’t showcased it, doesn’t mean they don’t scale. It’s powers available to them, just because they have an eye. Balder shows luka his memories in Bayonetta 1, and Bayonetta sees through Loki’s deception . Another power of the eye.
There’s a clear difference from their normal skill set, and when they’re using the eyes.
Thanks for doing this, I’ll add more supporting evidence to my blog.
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@WeeklyBattles Show me the feats right now and give me the calcs that were accepted to be light speed. If not you’re argument doesn’t hold any ground here. Also Loptr is Massively Hypersonic+ When he had no eyes. Ah yes the MFTL+ feat from Irenic, you mean the outlier feat that was rejected a while ago. That’s totally consistent given Jubileus failed to replicate the same feat.
No they don’t. There’s nothing on the profiles that says that have abstract existence. And again, you need to have some proof that they can live as long as the thing they embody exist. Saying they’re just conceptual entities isn’t enough.
Show me the scans that she sees the past of anyone she finds and how it’s not her remembering her past right now.
No they don’t. There’s nothing on the profiles that says that have abstract existence. And again, you need to have some proof that they can live as long as the thing they embody exist. Saying they’re just conceptual entities isn’t enough.
Show me the scans that she sees the past of anyone she finds and how it’s not her remembering her past right now.
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@Comicgyal oh yeah, forgot about Jeanne’s thing in the first game, then yeah that should be fine.
If you have any scenes of the light based attacks that Joy fires at Bayonetta, we can get someone to calc it.
the hierarchy is just on humans being able to see them or feel their presence. And the higher up the hierarchy goes, the more they lose their physical being. Saying it’s higher dimensional is a stretch if I’m being honest. It’s sounds very similar to what Sosuke Aizen in Bleach claimed when he said he was a transcendent being, and Ichigo with the final getsuga tensho is on a level even far greater than his, that doesn’t really make them higher dimensional, it’s just a figure of speech. Also which scan has Aesir as higher dimensional? I don’t recall that being stated about him.
that’s mostly on them being able to interact with the angels, that doesn’t mean they share the same non corporeal treatment. So they’d just have Non physical interaction since they can harm first sphere angels.
do you have any clips of Bayonetta being able to summon those demons? If she has shown to summon them then I’m ok with them scaling.
I wasn’t arguing that the concepts were erased. I was arguing that because they can live on their own path without the need of the eyes, despite the eyes giving them free will, it doesn’t seem like an actual concept it created. Just that giving them power allowed them to have their own choices for the longest time.
Did balder actually do that to Luka? If you have a clip of that happening then I’m ok with it scaling.
If you have any scenes of the light based attacks that Joy fires at Bayonetta, we can get someone to calc it.
the hierarchy is just on humans being able to see them or feel their presence. And the higher up the hierarchy goes, the more they lose their physical being. Saying it’s higher dimensional is a stretch if I’m being honest. It’s sounds very similar to what Sosuke Aizen in Bleach claimed when he said he was a transcendent being, and Ichigo with the final getsuga tensho is on a level even far greater than his, that doesn’t really make them higher dimensional, it’s just a figure of speech. Also which scan has Aesir as higher dimensional? I don’t recall that being stated about him.
that’s mostly on them being able to interact with the angels, that doesn’t mean they share the same non corporeal treatment. So they’d just have Non physical interaction since they can harm first sphere angels.
do you have any clips of Bayonetta being able to summon those demons? If she has shown to summon them then I’m ok with them scaling.
I wasn’t arguing that the concepts were erased. I was arguing that because they can live on their own path without the need of the eyes, despite the eyes giving them free will, it doesn’t seem like an actual concept it created. Just that giving them power allowed them to have their own choices for the longest time.
Did balder actually do that to Luka? If you have a clip of that happening then I’m ok with it scaling.
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@Comicgyal that would very much be conceptual manipulation since their own existence made these concepts.
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Auditio
The Auditio, also known as Cardinal Virtues, are the second-highest-ranking members of the Laguna. Made during the Middle Ages, these angels serve as the great intentions of Paradiso.[1] The Auditito serve as bosses in both games so far, Bayonetta and Bayonetta 2. In the sequel game, they also...
bayonetta.fandom.com
"Amongst the spiritually powerful of the Middle Ages, it was thought Paradiso held for all a Divine Will, and as a result, they developed heavenly logic. The concept of the "Cardinal Virtues" was born of this logic, and classifies Paradiso's Divine Will into four broad groups.These Cardinal Virtues occasionally become physical manifestations of the great intentions of Paradiso, and are known as the Laguna, inspiring awe in the masses."
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Glass if youre really just going to come right out the gate being aggressive towards me im just going to leave and wait until i can make my own crt, i really dont have the patience to deal with you
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Hey, we don’t have to be argue 
just discussing with each other. Nothing too serious.
Anyway, here’s what I found. These angels embody humans subconscious fear, doubts, prayer etc. No matter what era the world is in, these angels will always be made anew because those concepts exist.
This is the immortality from being based around a concept, abstract existence.
just discussing with each other. Nothing too serious.Anyway, here’s what I found. These angels embody humans subconscious fear, doubts, prayer etc. No matter what era the world is in, these angels will always be made anew because those concepts exist.
This is the immortality from being based around a concept, abstract existence.
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@WeeklyBattles that just sounds like concept manipulation, not abstract existence. If that was all we needed for abstract existence, God of War would’ve had those a long time ago.
Here’s the thing, and I’m gonna be blunt here, you have pulled the same move for nearly every single verse you heavily support, where you make a massive claim on the characters getting a massive buff without giving any legitimate proof to back up the buff. So when you’re gonna claim that they do have these light speed feats, I demand you actually give me the scans for once instead of just say they do because reasons. So sorry if I sound “aggressive” on your end, but I’m sick and tired of you pulling this stunt so many times, and many other people who’ve debated against you numerous times would agree too.
@Comicgyal yeah, originally we had type 3 abstract existence, which was literally just “having a concept, but nothing else”, which got nuked since it felt so useless to have. Nowadays we need proof that they can survive as long as whatever they embody exist.
Hmm... that could potentially give them abstract existence type 2. I’m not 100% sure, but that could be possible. Worst case scenario it would give them possibly Abstract existence (type 2)
Here’s the thing, and I’m gonna be blunt here, you have pulled the same move for nearly every single verse you heavily support, where you make a massive claim on the characters getting a massive buff without giving any legitimate proof to back up the buff. So when you’re gonna claim that they do have these light speed feats, I demand you actually give me the scans for once instead of just say they do because reasons. So sorry if I sound “aggressive” on your end, but I’m sick and tired of you pulling this stunt so many times, and many other people who’ve debated against you numerous times would agree too.
@Comicgyal yeah, originally we had type 3 abstract existence, which was literally just “having a concept, but nothing else”, which got nuked since it felt so useless to have. Nowadays we need proof that they can survive as long as whatever they embody exist.
Hmm... that could potentially give them abstract existence type 2. I’m not 100% sure, but that could be possible. Worst case scenario it would give them possibly Abstract existence (type 2)
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I’ll be sure to grab some of the light speed feats ! I know Bayonetta verse has had many issues, especially with speed. But we’re gathering much better Information, so you don’t have to worry about the lack of evidence.
But yes that sounds good, I have a lot of feats and journal entries that support abstract existence and conceptual manipulations. I’ve just been taking time to make it much more sound, so debates don’t take a long time.
But yes that sounds good, I have a lot of feats and journal entries that support abstract existence and conceptual manipulations. I’ve just been taking time to make it much more sound, so debates don’t take a long time.
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That’s fine, take your time, once we get the scans for the light reaction we’ll try to get a calc member try to calculate the feats, if its at least slower than what Jubileus does then I’m ok with the speed buffs. And I get the feeling I know which statements you’re gonna use but I’ll reserve my rebuttals until I see the full context regarding Aesir’s upgrade
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I know there’s talk of speed feats from Jeanne, and I’m looking into the light speed attacks from angels. I heard that immeasurable / infinite speed was reworked, so unfortunately the feats I had for that isn’t useable. Since they have dimensions where the concept of time is nonexistent, and they use said dimensions to fight forever. While the dimension replenishes their strength.
Has there been talk for buffing Aesir before? If it was anything from his journal entry, you might know what I’m talking about already. But honestly we need to get lower level stuff fixed first, before I even worry about that.
Has there been talk for buffing Aesir before? If it was anything from his journal entry, you might know what I’m talking about already. But honestly we need to get lower level stuff fixed first, before I even worry about that.
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Yeah some of the immeasurable and infinite speed arguments are nuked on the wiki, though immeasurable as of now is still getting discussed cause no one can give me a solid answer on what constitutes as it.
sort of? But I’ve read all of the lore stuff for Bayo 2 and I kinda have a feeling I know which scans you’re talking about. But yeah, let’s get the smaller shit out of the way so we can just focus on Aesir.
sort of? But I’ve read all of the lore stuff for Bayo 2 and I kinda have a feeling I know which scans you’re talking about. But yeah, let’s get the smaller shit out of the way so we can just focus on Aesir.
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It is a bit strange, trying to make a set standard for immeasurable speed is a bit unrealistic when verses scale speed in a different manner. For Blazblue, by their standards some characters should have immeasurable speed from even the first game. But it’s not by the same standards that I could justify Bayonetta for.
And makes sense, but yeah if you’re open to help me set things up in my blog, and also work with @WeeklyBattles with his CRT I’m sure we could create a very sound revision.
And makes sense, but yeah if you’re open to help me set things up in my blog, and also work with @WeeklyBattles with his CRT I’m sure we could create a very sound revision.
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@WeeklyBattles Do you have a blog, or place where you’re doing work on your CRT? I’m working on one as well, and it wouldn’t make sense for us to make two CRTs presenting different information. It’d be much more convenient to combine our information, and fix some possible flaws.
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I'll be busy for the next few hours, once you got your scans for what you're arguing post it here, I'll try to respond it when I can.
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what do you mean? the blog itself works fine over there, unless you mean in this forum.
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