Battle for 1st 7-A Non-Smurf - Kumoko VS Melheis Boran

[deonment]

Kumoko
VS
Melheis Boran
This is for this thread
SBA
Speed Equalized
Kumoko:
Melheis:
Incon:

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

What can Kumoko do against this. Melhies spams beno iven from the start only and his initial move is hiding in a separate dimension. Can Kumoko even search for Melhies dimension?.

Greater Forcefield Creation, Power Nullification, Existence Erasure, Fate Manipulation, Law Manipulation, Resistance Negation & Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1 Via <Beno Ieven>; Destroys and erases whatever comes into contact with it. Capable of disrupting and nullifying God's Order[12]. Can be used as a shield to block attacks. <Beno Ieven> was made with the combined powers of The "Great Mother Spirit, Reno", The "Hero Kanon", The "Goddess of Creation, Militia", The "Demon King, Anos Voldigoad"[13]),

 

[deonment]

Melheis first has to get around Kumoko's 21 layers of deconstruction, paralysis HP, MP, Stamina, Energy of both magic and anti-magic drain, fear, and info analysis drain, she can also get around that via her own spatial abuse via teleportation far out of his range and spamming from there, I'm also decently sure that a great amount of that abilities hax only targets beings considered divine by the standards of maou gakuin, which kumoko does not fulfill
In addition, Kumoko can just stop his attempts at going into that separate dimension via her own mastery of dimensional Magecraft, but even if he does she should be able to find it and then begin to turn it into her own God Zone

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Melheis first has to get around Kumoko's 21 layers of deconstruction, paralysis HP, MP, Stamina, Energy of both magic and anti-magic drain, fear, and info analysis drain, she can also get around that via her own spatial abuse via teleportation far out of his range and spamming from there, I'm also decently sure that a great amount of that abilities hax only targets beings considered divine by the standards of maou gakuin, which kumoko does not fulfill
In addition, Kumoko can just stop his attempts at going into that separate dimension via her own mastery of dimensional Magecraft, but even if he does she should be able to find it and then begin to turn it into her own God Zone

Melhies spams countless or atleast thousands of dimensions at same time can you show me scan for Kumoko blocking all of those ?. Even with Anos eyes which can see through interdimensional range couldn't pin point Melhies Dimension can you show me where Kumoko displayed anything on that level? Also he has mid godly regeneration which Kumoko has no counter to. Also the arguments of abilities only works divine is not how it works. There is an detailed explanation page for why Gods/order are CM type 1 and law manipulation and fate manipulation embodied beings. By your logic all Kumoko abilities should only work in her own verse ?

 

[Tatsumi504]

Shit, Elde got here before me prepare for a wank fest.

I'm also decently sure that a great amount of that abilities hax only targets beings considered divine by the standards of maou gakuin,

No, it has those properties by default. The barrier was made to stop humans, demons, spirits and gods from interacting with each other for 2000 years. It's also power null that destroys whatever ability is trying to affect the wielder so all Melheis has to do is surround himself with it.

Energy of both magic and anti-magic drain, fear, and info analysis drain

1st, the hell is Fear, Info Analysis drain? Anti-magic isn't a separate type of energy system, it's jist a barrier they cast to ward off magic spells as well as other effects. Melheis doesn't really have to worry about running out of magic either. With Origin magic he can continuously bprrow magic power from Anos

In addition, Kumoko can just stop his attempts at going into that separate dimension via her own mastery of dimensional Magecraft, but even if he does she should be able to find it and then begin to turn it into her own God Zone

Azesith dimensions are isolated from the world by default and only the caster can interfere with them, it can't be affected from the outside. She'll need feats of affecting a pocket dimension like this and even at that, He can create a further absolute space inside that can't be interfered with.

Also he has mid godly regeneration which Kumoko has no counter to.

Incap is always an option

By your logic all Kumoko abilities should only work in her own verse ?

Elde, don't.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Shit, Elde got here before me prepare for a wank fest.

Azesith dimensions are isolated from the world by default and only the caster can interfere with them, it can't be affected from the outside. She'll need feats of affecting a pocket dimension like this and even at that, He can create a further absolute space inside that can't be interfered with.

Thousands of them actually. She needs feats for affecting on that much level.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Humans< Zepes< Naya< (3-pointed star) 1st years< 2nd year students< 3rd year students< Misa (4-pointed star)< Liebest (5-pointed star)< Sasha & Misha (6-pointed star)< Lay (7-pointed star)< Liorg (Demon duke)< Emilia Ludwel< Menou Historia< Demon Emperors< Elio Ludwel< Anti-magic regions< BoS Sasha EoD< Ivis Necron< Dragons< Mythical Age Demons< Melheis

Magic resistance and magic superiority in MGnF works on a system of magic power. The more magic power you have, the higher your hax layers and resistance.

Spoiler

Humans have trivial magic resistance, Zepes magic resistance is so shitty that he could be haxed just by Anos talking.
Moving onto the students, magic superiority is indicated by how many sides the polygon on your school badge has.
Naya is outright stated to be the most inferior student at magic even among the 1st years but at least she doesn't get haxed just by talking to Anos compared to Zepes, other 1st years are superior to her, the 2nd years are better than the 1st years and the 3rd years better than even them cause as you advance, your magic gets better. Misa has a 4-pointed star compared to them which indicates she's superior, Liebest one of the 3rd years has a pentagram star, Sasha and Misha have hexagrams, Lay has a heptagram.
Leorg is a Demon Duke, royalty are assigned positions based on their power and Anos notes Emilia has far more magic than him. He later notes Menou has more magic than even Emilia. Demon Emperors are the most powerful individuals in the magical age surpassing all others. Demon Emperor Elio is stated to be in a class of his own compared to the rest of them.
Everyone from the Magical Age is affected by Anti-magic regions, places with unstable, fluctuating dense magic power that makes it impossible to control magic. The Eyes of Destruction are the ultimate Anti-magic superior to even these regions.
Ivis could easily seal Sasha's EoD with a wave of his hand. Dragons have superior magic resistance that people on Ivis level can't affect them with magic at all, Mythical Age demons are capable of affecting dragons and hunted them down to extinction and Melheis is superior to even them.

Their magic is able to overcome magic resistance of someone on their level simply by adding more magic power to their spells and they can improve their resistance to stand against even that by strengthening it with even more magic power.
So after the humans, multiply each instance of superiority by two,that's how many layers Melheis has so that's 42 layers in general.
Deconstruction stops being viable against others at Ivis level regardless of magic power so that's 35 layers.
Paralysis comes from "Demon binding chain" <Gijel> that seals movement so it's stacks up to the general layers
Depending on the Magic Sword and affinity, there were swords that could still consume mythical age demons so that's 40 layers

 

[deonment]

Melhies spams countless or atleast thousands of dimensions at same time can you show me scan for Kumoko blocking all of those ?

She doesn't need to, she only stops people from transferring themselves to it, quoting her profile

Further, she can interfere with the teleportation of other to make them teleport somewhere other than they intended and can sense the teleportation of others.

This includes teleporting via portals or to other dimensions, but even if this doesn't work, kumoko herself has a slowed perception of time and can have at least 10000 clones of her who share her own mind at once, meaning she easily has the computational power to stop attempts at this

Even with Anos eyes which can see through interdimensional range couldn't pin point Melhies Dimension can you show me where Kumoko displayed anything on that level?

Was able to detect Kuro's God Zone and other spatial stuff which is undetectable using magic under the system, while other uses of space, which include the creation of pocket dimensions, can be detected by people in the system who are good at space magic

Also he has mid godly regeneration which Kumoko has no counter to.

She can incap him

Also the arguments of abilities only works divine is not how it works. There is an detailed explanation page for why Gods/order are CM type 1 and law manipulation and fate manipulation embodied beings. By your logic all Kumoko abilities should only work in her own verse ?

I'm saying the stuff that specifically targets and affects a divine order should not work on people who do not have a divine order or do not function as one, it is as simple as that, that part of the effect also reads more like it stops the gods from properly manifesting rather than destroying said things.

No, it has those properties by default. The barrier was made to stop humans, demons, spirits and gods from interacting with each other for 2000 years. It's also power null that destroys whatever ability is trying to affect the wielder so all Melheis has to do is surround himself with it.

See the above for what I was saying about the divine order-related stuff.
I see, is it passively on all the time or does he have to activate it for it to come into effect and how much time does it take for it to do so, along with how far is its range

1st, the hell is Fear, Info Analysis drain? Anti-magic isn't a separate type of energy system, it's jist a barrier they cast to ward off magic spells as well as other effects. Melheis doesn't really have to worry about running out of magic either. With Origin magic he can continuously bprrow magic power from Anos

Meant to separate those, Fear and Info Analysis are not a part of the drains but stuff that she generally uses
Is this barrier made of energy because if Kumoko can just drain it
1)Which key of Anos
2)From what I'm reading Anos doesn't have limitless energy so he will eventually run out, esp if Melheis casts magic which gives Kumoko even more fuel to keep going

Azesith dimensions are isolated from the world by default and only the caster can interfere with them, it can't be affected from the outside. She'll need feats of affecting a pocket dimension like this and even at that, He can create a further absolute space inside that can't be interfered with.

That is literally what God Zones are and Kumoko not only can interfere with one, but entirely took over and supplanted another god's God Zone with her own, Kuro's God Zone which was a whole ass alternate dimension he ambushed and pulled Kumoko into

Magic resistance and magic superiority in MGnF works on a system of magic power. The more magic power you have, the higher your hax layers and resistance.

Spoiler

Humans have trivial magic resistance, Zepes magic resistance is so shitty that he could be haxed just by Anos talking.
Moving onto the students, magic superiority is indicated by how many sides the polygon on your school badge has.
Naya is outright stated to be the most inferior student at magic even among the 1st years but at least she doesn't get haxed just by talking to Anos compared to Zepes, other 1st years are superior to her, the 2nd years are better than the 1st years and the 3rd years better than even them cause as you advance, your magic gets better. Misa has a 4-pointed star compared to them which indicates she's superior, Liebest one of the 3rd years has a pentagram star, Sasha and Misha have hexagrams, Lay has a heptagram.
Leorg is a Demon Duke, royalty are assigned positions based on their power and Anos notes Emilia has far more magic than him. He later notes Menou has more magic than even Emilia. Demon Emperors are the most powerful individuals in the magical age surpassing all others. Demon Emperor Elio is stated to be in a class of his own compared to the rest of them.
Everyone from the Magical Age is affected by Anti-magic regions, places with unstable, fluctuating dense magic power that makes it impossible to control magic. The Eyes of Destruction are the ultimate Anti-magic superior to even these regions.
Ivis could easily seal Sasha's EoD with a wave of his hand. Dragons have superior magic resistance that people on Ivis level can't affect them with magic at all, Mythical Age demons are capable of affecting dragons and hunted them down to extinction and Melheis is superior to even them.

Their magic is able to overcome magic resistance of someone on their level simply by adding more magic power to their spells and they can improve their resistance to stand against even that by strengthening it with even more magic power.
So after the humans, multiply each instance of superiority by two,that's how many layers Melheis has so that's 42 layers in general.
Deconstruction stops being viable against others at Ivis level regardless of magic power so that's 35 layers.
Paralysis comes from "Demon binding chain" <Gijel> that seals movement so it's stacks up to the general layers
Depending on the Magic Sword and affinity, there were swords that could still consume mythical age demons so that's 40 layers

Where is the 2x coming from exactly, just want to check before I make my argument

I also want to know what Melheis' wincon is, because Kumoko is not a stranger to just abusing her range and various ways to camp people out to win

 

[Tatsumi504]

This includes teleporting via portals or to other dimensions, but even if this doesn't work, kumoko herself has a slowed perception of time and can have at least 10000 clones of her who share her own mind at once, meaning she easily has the computational power to stop attempts at this

How does teleportation in the verse work exactly?

Oh, yes. Well, this is a trivial question, but "transfer " <gatom> is a lost magic, but it is a useful magic, isn't it? Why was it lost?"

Kakka kakka, good question. Detention naya!"

With a thump, the Fierce Death King raises his cane.

Let me answer you. Even 2,000 years ago, there were not many people who could use the "Transfer" <Gatom> because, while it did not require much magic, it was difficult to construct a magic formula. This is because, while it does not require much magic power, it is difficult to construct a magic formula. The reason for this is that the formula must change depending on the magical environment in which the space is connected.
...
"It's almost like building it on the spot rather than changing. By looking into the abyss of space, it constructs a magic formula suitable for it. Therefore, the formula of Transfer <Gatom> has no definite form other than the nucleus, and that is the reason why this magic has been lost."

If the teleportation she interferes with is skill based that just sends you somewhere then she isn't interfering with this one.

Was able to detect Kuro's God Zone and other spatial stuff which is undetectable using magic under the system, while other uses of space, which include the creation of pocket dimensions, can be detected by people in the system who are good at space magic

The issue isn't the whether it can be detected, the issue is this

Azesith dimensions couldn’t be interfered with from the
outside.
...
Melheis cast another gate before himself. This one was far more
extravagant in appearance compared to the others until now.
“Oh? An unconditional space, is it?”
“That is correct. Everything past this gate is under the absolute control of
the caster. It is impossible to defeat me inside Azesith.”

The pocket dimensions don't exist naturally. They're a separate space isolated from the real world created by the caster and can't be interfered with from the outside.

I'm saying the stuff that specifically targets and affects a divine order should not work on people who do not have a divine order or do not function as one, it is as simple as that, that part of the effect also reads more like it stops the gods from properly manifesting rather than destroying said things.

But order is laws, concepts & fate. It distorts order by destroying it not stopping them from manifesting. It also affects normal people though but you do have a point. If it always affected universal laws, concepts & fate no matter what it destroys it'll be a smurf ability.
It's still EE & Power null though

I see, is it passively on all the time or does he have to activate it for it to come into effect and how much time does it take for it to do so, along with how far is its range

It's not passive, he has to activate it as for how long, just standard make a magic circle and it comes out

Is this barrier made of energy because if Kumoko can just drain it
1)Which key of Anos

More like it needs to be supplied magic to mantain itself so yeah i guess you can say it's made of energy. Anti-magic is weird in the sense the author didn't always differentiate it's type. There's;

1. Normal Anti-magic to block magic spells
2. Magic barriers to block physical attacks
3. Barriers that block Telepathy, far sight, esp, clairvoyance and other perception based abilities
4. Anti-magic that refers to natural magic resistance.

1 & 2 can be said to be made of energy thus can be absorbed, 3 doesn't restrict physical activity so I'm not sure but if she can identify it i guess so, 4 is natural magic resistance so no dice.

No need to worry about the key, he can't acquire smurf abilities or anything massively beyond what he's capable of it's just a way to borrow magic power.

2)From what I'm reading Anos doesn't have limitless energy so he will eventually run out, esp if Melheis casts magic which gives Kumoko even more fuel to keep going

Please tell me you didn't just try to compare kumoko's reserves to that of Anos. Anos basically has inexhaustible energy but this is derailing.

“Ancient entities gain magic power in relation to their age. Origin magic is
that which borrows from the tremendous power of an ancient origin.”
...
“The standard approach to using origin magic is to borrow from the most ancient, most powerful existence possible. However, the older the existence is, the more ambiguous it becomes, making it hard to control the power being borrowed. One often ends up with more power than they can handle.”

Melheis also easily has 100yrs worth of magic power, stamina wise, he scales above someone who stated they could fight continuously without rest without tiring for 100yrs

“Crossing the wall would require expending a large amount of magic, so
chasing you would have resulted in the assailant leaving Dilhade for quite
some time. Thus, they gave up on pursuing you—does that sound plausible?”
“Indeed, that is what I think as well. By the time I had regained enough
power to cross the wall back to Dilhade, one hundred years had passed.”
...
“Your skills may be impressive,” he growled, continuing his assault, “but
how about your stamina? I’m afraid I won’t tire for the next one hundred years—".

He also has 5% of Anos magic power in reserve stored in the king's scepter

That is literally what God Zones are and Kumoko not only can interfere with one, but entirely took over and supplanted another god's God Zone with her own, Kuro's God Zone which was a whole ass alternate dimension he ambushed and pulled Kumoko into

Alternate dimensions are still connected in some way. Azesith is completely isolated from the world

Where is the 2x coming from exactly, just want to check before I make my argument

Take the bottom fodder, humans/ zepes as an example.
If you had two zepes's, Zepes 1 & Zepes 2 who are on the same level and Zepes 1 wants to affect Zepes 2 who has resistance to his powers, Zepes 1 simply needs to add more magic power into his spell to by pass Zepes 2 Anti-magic (magic resistance). Similarly, if Zepes 2 wanted to resist the power that now overcomes his resistance, he simply has to strengthen his magic resistance by adding more magic power to it.

I also want to know what Melheis' wincon is, because Kumoko is not a stranger to just abusing her range and various ways to camp people out to win

Meh, i actually don't see a wincon here. The range difference is just too f*cking huge. The highest I'd say his range can go is Ten Kilometers. Unless by whatever miracle he can use <I gneas> that transcends distance or for whatever reason when the battle starts, he casts tracking <Enoy> on her so that he'll be able to track & follow her anywhere which he won't actively try to chase an opponent in character. When his plans were foiled, his first action was to retreat and strategize again or even reach a consensus against his opponent. He's smart cunning and shrewd. Nothing except a direct order from Anos would make him chase her.
Similarly though, she has no wincons against him anything she pulls is either resisted, power nulled or EE'd to oblivion so I'm actually looking at an Incon here. His stamina is insane, has High-Mid healing, resurrection that covers up to Mid-godly so he isn't losing a brute force battle either

 

[DontTalkDT]

Kumoko's 21 layers of deconstruction, paralysis HP, MP, Stamina, Energy of both magic and anti-magic drain, fear, and info analysis drain

Just gonna swoop in to say that 21 layers are not the full story.

For a start, Kumo Desu Ga has a resistance stat. Higher stat = Higher resistance. That goes from 1 to 99999. So there is an analogue to that magic power thing (although that isn't to say there are 99999 layers or anything).

And then regarding power null layers specifically:
Dragon Scale has 10 levels, each stronger than the last.
Dragon Barrier is superior (10 levels)
Divine Dragon Barrier above that (10 levels)
Gluttony negates that (1 level; Although IIRC Gluttony can even erase a combined barrier of multiple dragons)
Magecraft Jamming Field negates that (At least 1 level)
Evil Eye of Gluttony negates that (1 level)
Kumoko uses 10k clones each using their 8 eyes for Evil Eye of Gluttony to amplify the effect (x80k number multplier i.e. the not layer kind of potency)
God Zone is a layer above that (Kumoko can't negate it except by overwriting it with her own God Zone)

Much fun with the rest of the thread.
flies away

 

[Tatsumi504]

Just gonna swoop in to say that 21 layers are not the full story.

For a start, Kumo Desu Ga has a resistance stat. Higher stat = Higher resistance. That goes from 1 to 99999. So there is an analogue to that magic power thing (although that isn't to say there are 99999 layers or anything).

And then regarding power null layers specifically:
Dragon Scale has 10 levels, each stronger than the last.
Dragon Barrier is superior (10 levels)
Divine Dragon Barrier above that (10 levels)
Gluttony negates that (1 level; Although IIRC Gluttony can even erase a combined barrier of multiple dragons)
Magecraft Jamming Field negates that (At least 1 level)
Evil Eye of Gluttony negates that (1 level)
Kumoko uses 10k clones each using their 8 eyes for Evil Eye of Gluttony to amplify the effect (x80k number multplier i.e. the not layer kind of potency)
God Zone is a layer above that (Kumoko can't negate it except by overwriting it with her own God Zone)

Much fun with the rest of the thread.
flies away

Unrelated to the layers but is there any possibility that she'll engage in combat anywhere from tens of meters to kilometers? If she doesn't then this match is just an incon

 

[DontTalkDT]

Unrelated to the layers but is there any possibility that she'll engage in combat anywhere from tens of meters to kilometers? Of she doesn't then this match is just an incon

Very unlikely. God combat in kumo desu ga is based on the principle "if you're worse in space magic you're screwed". Which is exactly because gods can fight cowardly by just keeping at a distance.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Okay, thank you very much.
Yeah, the match is an incon. The range difference is too massive and Melheis won't actively try to chase her. He'll prefer to wait for her to come to him while strategizing

 

[Aernasilver]

Why is Melheis even 7-A? In his profile he is comparable to Anos and Eugo who are 6-C.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Why is Melheis even 7-A? In his profile he is comparable to Anos and Eugo who are 6-C.

He's at least 7-A, likely 6-C. He's noted to be comparable but that happened after absorbing 50% of Anos power, not sure if he'll be 6-C without it

 

[deonment]

Yeah Incon is the likely outcome here
Also I like DT leaving me for dead to deal with the anos supporters

 

[Tatsumi504]

Yeah Incon is the likely outcome here
Also I like DT leaving me for dead to deal with the anos supporters

So they should share the spot at least till i find evidence to boot Melheis from 7-A

 

[Fixxed]

What can Kumoko do against this. Melhies spams beno iven from the start only and his initial move is hiding in a separate dimension. Can Kumoko even search for Melhies dimension?.

Bruh god's order is 5D hax

 

[Tatsumi504]

Bruh god's order is 5D hax

Only when used against gods. Its normal against others

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Bruh god's order is 5D hax

Only when used against gods. Its normal against others

When TF did we started treating this as 5D

 

[Tatsumi504]

When TF did we started treating this as 5D

It'll depend on the god. Chief God like Eques is 5D

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

It'll depend on the god. Chief God like Eques is 5D

Damn. You both made it look like all gods has 5D order. Anyway Beno lven couldn't do jackshit to Eques. So it shouldn't be 5D anyway.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Damn. You both made it look like all gods has 5D order. Anyway Beno lven couldn't do jackshit to Eques. So it shouldn't be 5D anyway.

That was him resisting it not beno Yeven doing nothing. Anywau call staff to close this.
Melheis and kumoko share the spot till he gets booted from 7-A

 

[Fixxed]

When TF did we started treating this as 5D

Because order is govern the reality of the bubble world, the order's range is 5D

 

[Fixxed]

Only when used against gods. Its normal against others

Ahh... i get that

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Because order is govern the reality of the bubble world, the order's range is 5D

By your logic it should be 6D not 5D.

 

[Fixxed]

By your logic it should be 6D not 5D.

Why

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Why

Order exists in Silver Sea also

 

[Fixxed]

Order exists in Silver Sea also

It is order of the silver sea not order of the bubble

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

It is order of the silver sea not order of the bubble

Yes But nowhere stated that Beno Lven affect Bubble world order. It is made to affect Gods order which are 4D at best

 

[Fixxed]

Yes But nowhere stated that Beno Lven affect Bubble world order. It is made to affect Gods order which are 4D at best

It stated that affect god's order that govern reality of the bubble it self

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

It stated that affect god's order that govern reality of the bubble it self

gods are not 5D not even their order except Eques

 

[Fixxed]

gods are not 5D not even their order except Eques

The gods not, but the order's range is entire bubble that mean 5D

I mean if we delete one unique order, take order of sound as example, how can be in the bubble exist sound? And then if we create it sound will exist in that bubble

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

The gods not, but the order's range is entire bubble that mean 5D

I mean if we delete one unique order, take order of sound as example, how can be in the bubble exist sound? And then if we create it sound will exist in that bubble

No if affects the Mortal World. It doesn't affect the complete Bubble world as far as I understand.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Take this to the discussion thread!

 

[Fixxed]

No if affects the Mortal World. It doesn't affect the complete Bubble world as far as I understand.

It affect all of the bubble, i think we already clear that, order default nature is independent from the reality of all militia world and if order get erased the world get erased. The context of "world" in this is the bubble it self, because they talking about what existed before militia create the world

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

It affect all of the bubble, i think we already clear that, order default nature is independent from the reality of all militia world and if order get erased the world get erased. The context of "world" in this is the bubble it self, because they talking about what existed before militia create the world

No realms are only accepted as 2A.

 

[Fixxed]

No realms are only accepted as 2A.

But they not talking about realm but about world that militia created

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

But they not talking about realm but about world that militia created

Sound existed when militia was in Nothingness state though

 

[Fixxed]

Sound existed when militia was in Nothingness state though

I not talking about the sound but about order affect the militia world