BAN-KAI! Bleach General Discussion

[DragoZeroNova]

Her power was mistaken for something that was around the level of Muken Aizen or Hogyoku Aizen, though I haven't read the novel itself (and also don't know Japanese so I'm unsure how properly it's translated) so it really depends on how reliable of a source Cien is. It does seem like he knows about Aizen when he fused with the Hogyoku and he does know what Mugetsu is, so that gives his words some weight.
She also doesn't die from using it, she just suffers severe damage that would normally kill most people in Bleach. She puts herself back together right after using it, so yeah.
Whether or not this makes her that powerful and how close her copy is in strength (I'm pretty sure it's not 1-1 based on her statements) is I guess up to interpertation.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Her Mugetsu is explicitly weaker than Ichigo’s per statements

 

[LordGriffin1000]

How's everyone doing, dropping by to see what's what in the Bleach word.

 

[DragoZeroNova]

Yeah, I just don't know how much weaker.

 

[Deceived3596]

How's everyone doing, dropping by to see what's what in the Bleach word.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

 

[LordGriffin1000]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Now I'm scared...

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Now I'm scared...

You should be

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Me when I get asked the question of pure pain and despair

 

[BeTheWay1rst]

The fact the no one said Orihime is crazy
Orihime is tier 0 of the verse

 

[Specterxxxx]

For everyone asking, Roca scales that high not because of mugetsu but because of the fact that the power she used to create the mugetsu was mistaken for being post hygoku aizen's power instead of ichigo's. So while her mugetsu isn't on ichigo's level, it is comparable to post hygoku fusion Aizen which still puts her that high.

 

[Specterxxxx]

The fact the no one said Orihime is crazy
Orihime is tier 0 of the verse

We don't really know how her power works TBH, her power system looks alien compared to the rest of the verse. And we can't reasonable gauge her since she doesn't have much AP feats

 

[Qawsedf234]

So while her mugetsu isn't on ichigo's level, it is comparable to post hygoku fusion Aizen which still puts her that high.

Being auto-destroyed by one slash that is baseline Aizen fusion level still isn't that good in my view. Cien managed to live long enough from the attack to teleport away and he's (roughly) as strong or 50% of the strength of a Full Hollowified Ichigo.

 

[Westcoast5005]

Lille and askin should be higher on list most people can’t even deal with them Lille should be above jugram or is this ap scaling?

Including cyfow, I guess it would be

1. Prime soul king
2. Ichigo
3. Yhwach
4. Aizen
5. Kenpachi Zaraki
6. Ikomikimodoe
7. Hikone
8. Ginjou
9. Roka (safwy)
10. Jugram
11. Uryu
12. Ichibei
13. Senjumaru, Tenjiro, Oetsu, hikifune
14. Gerard
15. Mature Toshiro
16. Renji(lowkey don't see how he is stronger than yamamoto tho)
17. Yamamoto
18. Gremmy
19. Pernida
20. Urahara

Random shot at the dark, this would be my top 20, I think it's an accurate ranking unless I missed anybody else

 

[Apotheosis69]

Lille is absolutely not above Jugram, as he easily upscales from Uryu. Who could contend with casual Bankai Senjumaru (True Power Squad 0)

 

[Westcoast5005]

Lille is absolutely not above Jugram, as he easily upscales from Uryu. Who could contend with casual Bankai Senjumaru (True Power Squad 0)

Is it based on ap or in a fight because if its the later very few beat him not even jugram

 

[Westcoast5005]

And if jugram cross is his weakness Lille can bypass the durability with x axis

 

[Deceived3596]

Now I'm scared...

The fog is coming.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

The bells toll

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

The storm rolls in.

 

[Apotheosis69]

And if jugram cross is his weakness Lille can bypass the durability with x axis

What "Jugram cross is his weakness"… thats literally Gerard

And Jugram is def far faster than Lille, and his Balance can F over the X-Axis' intangibility

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

And if jugram cross is his weakness Lille can bypass the durability with x axis

Jugram isn't stated to have the Quincy cross weakness. His weakness is you kill him before he uses The Balance.

 

[Westcoast5005]

Jugram isn't stated to have the Quincy cross weakness. His weakness is you kill him before he uses The Balance.

Yeah confused Gerard with jugram

 

[Westcoast5005]

What "Jugram cross is his weakness"… thats literally Gerard

And Jugram is def far faster than Lille, and his Balance can F over the X-Axis' intangibility

Yeah I agree with jugram thought it was Gerard

 

[Excellence616]

For everyone asking, Roca scales that high not because of mugetsu but because of the fact that the power she used to create the mugetsu was mistaken for being post hygoku aizen's power instead of ichigo's. So while her mugetsu isn't on ichigo's level, it is comparable to post hygoku fusion Aizen which still puts her that high.

How could they know Post Hōgyoku Aizen power when they can't even sense him?

 

[ItsMeat]

How could they know Post Hōgyoku Aizen power when they can't even sense him?

Traces of reiatsu from transcedentals can still be sensed. Just like how Isshin could sense 3rd hf aizen's traces of reiatsu even if he was unable to sense Aizen's reiatsu since the 2nd fusion

 

[Adam1396]

How could they know Post Hōgyoku Aizen power when they can't even sense him?

Urahara, ishin could not sense aizen's power. But could still gauge his power level.

 

[Infinite9Luck]

Yeah, I just don't know how much weaker.

A lot. Cien stated that Roka's copy abilities are limited, in fact, he explicitly affirmed that even if she copied Cien himself, she couldn’t match his power, meaning what she copies is ultimately tied to her own energy. However, the Mugetsu was an exceptional boost as it was for ichigo, and she was almost dying after using it, so I believe that for a brief moment, she managed to surpass her usual limits and reach a power high enough to kill him.

Still, this was nowhere near the real Mugetsu. It should be contextualized that everything Roka did is likely still within the range of Cien-level power overall, howeevr this prove Roka herself is much stronger than any other Espada

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

Damn did I miss a group reading session of SAFWY?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Devices can measure transcendent reiatsu even when people can’t

 

[DragoZeroNova]

4-A Devices!?!?

 

[Deceived3596]

Deep state technology

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

I mean, his hax alone makes him one of the 4 bleach characters that would beat the likes of goku in a fight even if we restrict things like soul crush

So whether he can beat Goku or not is related to Crossverse. Yamamoto is stronger than Lille but he still can't beat Goku but Lille can beat Goku with hax.

 

[Naeblis495]

So whether he can beat Goku or not is related to Crossverse. Yamamoto is stronger than Lille but he still can't beat Goku but Lille can beat Goku with hax.

Given manga goku heat resistance (seem to be magma level at best),yama still neg him with his passive bankai heat.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Given manga goku heat resistance (seem to be magma level at best),yama still neg him with his passive bankai heat.

Maybe. I gave Yamamoto as an example because he was the first person that came to my mind. I don't know what Goku's heat resistance is.

 

[BeTheWay1rst]

I don't know what Goku's heat resistance is

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

Maybe. I gave Yamamoto as an example because he was the first person that came to my mind. I don't know what Goku's heat resistance is.

Apparently he resists instant vaporization according to his DBS profile, but I know that's way lower tham the core of the sun.

You'd think it'd be higher too

 

[Infinite9Luck]

Some text extract from SAFWY, I think this should confirms Mugetsu is not just a vertical cut, but as shown in the anime it crumbles away and disintegrate the whole body, and the difference of power between Aizen and Ichigo might even be greater, while Cien and Roka where somehow comparable, then Roka got this immense boost, Ichigo was already stronger than Aizen and even boosted himself way more with Final Getsuga Tenshō.

また、あの甘美な殺し合いの——「死匂」に塗れた舞踏を……。
どこかに向かって手を伸ばした所で、彼はその指先が崩壊していくのを感じとった。
皮膚の表面が次々と霊子が零れ落ち、舌から赤い肉の色が覗き始める。
——待て、待ってくれ。僕は、必ずまた殺し合うと誓ったんだ。

As he reached his hand out toward somewhere, he felt the fingertips beginning to disintegrate.
The surface of his skin steadily shed reishi, and from his tongue, the color of red flesh began to peek through. Wait, wait for me. I swore I would definitely fight to the death with you again.

「……僕は、僕はまだ、死ねないは……駄々を捏ねる子供のような表情で、声にならない叫びをあげるシエンだが——そんな言葉に惑わされる事なく、暗闇は滅びの歌を歌い続け——シエンを包みこむ「死」は、ゆっくりと彼の身体を崩壊させていった。暗い場所から生まれた狂気を、再び暗い場所へと還す為に。ロカは、かろうじて生きていた。あの力を発動させた後、具体的に何が起きたのかは解らない。ただ、周囲にはもう何も残っていない、という事だけは理解できた。散在していた斬魄の瓦礫はもはや、一つも残っておらず、辺りには、砂が流れる音だけが響き渡っている。

“…I still can’t die yet…”
With a face like a child throwing a tantrum, Cien let out a voiceless scream, but the darkness paid no heed to such words and continued to sing its song of destruction.
The “death” that enveloped Cien progressively broke down his body, in order to return the madness born from darkness back to darkness once more.

Roka was barely alive.
She didn’t know exactly what had happened after unleashing that power.
All she could understand was that nothing was left in the surroundings anymore.
The scattered rubble of the Zanpakutō was now completely gone,
and throughout the area, only the sound of flowing sand echoed.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

We also just see Aizen disintegrate on panel

 

[Excellence616]

EE Mugetsu

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

Mmmmmm, Ichigo hax. I like