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BAN-KAI! Bleach General Discussion

Robo432343 said:
yeah i know but the reason why i said stop making bleach match ups is because im hearing from a lot of supporters lately that the profiles are very outdated and that they need a lot of work
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It's only the squad zero scaling that are outdated like Uryu, Jugram and Renji becoming 4-A. Askin hasn't shown he can get to that level
 
Profiles being a work in progress doesn’t prevent vs matches. People should know that like wins and losses might get removed if profiles undergo big changes, but who cares. If people wanna spam certain characters in vs matches cuz they enjoy debating with them, go for it.
 
Robo432343 said:
#stopmakingbleatchmatches
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ive been on this train for a long time! it is almost impossible to make a good bleach matchup.
Robo432343 said:
yeah i know but the reason why i said stop making bleach match ups is because im hearing from a lot of supporters lately that the profiles are very outdated and that they need a lot of work
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i think it goes beyond the proflies needing to be updated.
 
GOATMAN1232000 said:
Not going to touch Ulq vs Yammy, but Cien is called out as being as strong as Full Hollow Ichigo. Why do you have him below Ulqui? And why the hell is Grimmjow and Luppi so damn high? Are these their CFYOW forms?
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I was going to open a crt and explain why Uluqiorra should be 4-A.

I heard that the expression used for Cien and SAFWY Zaraki was a translation error. But even if it wasn't a translation error, I think it's a contradiction.

I see Vasto Lord as stronger than Unohana, and the Zaraki that Unohana fought is stronger than the Zaraki that fought Cien.

I don't plan on sharing all the arguments here without making the CRT. But for now, let me say this: The reason I say Vasto Lord>Unohana is not the conversation between Unohana and Ichigo.
 
LordTracer said:
Wait, he might actually be cooking?
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This is actually not a bad comment. If we scale Luupi and Grimmjow to Ginjo, it is possible to see them above Starrk. Even if they will be stronger than Starrk, I don't think there is a big difference.

The reason why Barragan is ahead of Starrk is because it is stated that Barragan>Grimmjow.
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
Throwing bricks at both of you
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anime-avoiding-responsibilities.gif
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
Apollonir why do you think Full Hollow Ichigo is above Unohana? And why do you think Ulquiorra even scales to that Ichigo?
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First let me explain why I scaled Uluqiorra to Vasto Lord. By the way, my native language is not English. I am writing from translation. Greetings from Turkey from here.

Uluqiorra can clash ceros of equal power with VL. If a cero is superior to another cero, the superior destroys the weaker one and continues to advance as a result of this clash. Grimmjo vs Shinji is a good example of this. (2:09)



So we can say they have equal Ap and Lanza Del Relampago is Uluqiorra's strongest attack. So LDR should also increase in Ap.

If we scale Uluqiorra as I think we will have to lower the characters rated by lanza del relampago calculation which is measured as High 6-A. We will discuss this later.

Uluqiorra can withstand a Point Blank Cero from VL even when his guard is down. I see this as a stamina feat, not a durability feat. Uluqiorra says finish it already in the manga. So there's no need to assume that someone who accepts to die is at full durability. If he accepts to die, he can make it easier by lowering his guard and making it less painful.

In terms of speed, VL doesn't blitz Uluqiorra. If we need to explain the event from scratch, Uluqiorra can't see Ichigo because there is smoke in between. Then VL goes behind Uluqiorra using sonido. Using sonido hides Spiritual Pressure. That's why Uluqiorra couldn't sense VL's Spiritual Pressure. In the manga, he is surprised by asking how Pesquisa overcame him and confirms that he used sonido. In fact, throughout the battle, Uluqiorra is surprised by Ichigo's use of arrancar abilities such as cero and sonido. He loses because he is somehow surprised. If Uluqiorra hadn't been surprised, Ichigo would still have won, but at least it would have been harder. The battle in the manga is very different from the anime. Since Uluqiorra doesn't talk in the anime version, it's not exactly clear what's what. I used to say VL>>>>>>Uluqiorra, but it's really hard that this isn't the case. More like VL≥Uluqiorra. It cannot be claimed that Vl is immeasurably superior in terms of stats.

Let me also say this. When VL got behind Uluqiorra with Sonido, Uluqiorrra showed the reflex to turn his head back at the last moment. In other words, VL could not surpass Uluqiorra's perception speed despite using Sonido. He is definitely not much superior in terms of speed and there is no blitz situation.

Let me explain why he is stronger than Unohana.

1. Scaling: VL is stronger than FKT Ichigo and FKT Ichigo is the last hope. Gotei 13 is helpless against Aizen. VL>FKT Ichigo>Unohana, Shunui. Yamamoto is the exception since he is not in a fighting state at that time anyway. FKT Ichigo can react to Aizen and deal damage to him. This is consistent since Ichigo is called the last hope and the other Gotei 13 captains are helpless against Aizen in the same episode.

Aizen saw Yamamoto as the only captain with real power. The fact that he didn't include Unohana in this clearly confirms that he saw himself and Yamamoto as superior to Unohana.

2. Scaling is based on Uryu's words. Uryu sees Segunda Etapa Uluqiorra as stronger than anything he's seen. In fact, you are already using this statement in Uluqiorra's profile to say SE>Cero. Good but there is something better. Uryu sees Unohana, Yamamoto and Aizen at the end of the SS arc. According to Uryu's words, Segunda Etapa Uluqiorra>Pre-Hogyoku Aizen. You can say that the same Uryu said SAFWY Zaraki=VL in the novel, but as I said, this is a translation error and if we do not say translation error, Manga>Novel is canon. So we can accept Uryu's words in the manga and reject his statement in the novel. Or we can deny both. In both ways, we refute the idea of lowering Uluqiorra and VL over SAFWY Zaraki and Cien.

3. Scaling is about SAFWY Zaraki. Vasto Lord>SAFWY Zaraki and the same Zaraki defeats Azashiro. We can see the final form Azashiro as equal to Kuruyashiki. Due to Kuruyashiki's power, they invite him to team 0. This at least confirms that Kuruyashiki is also 4-A. If we consider that there is already a Kenpachi, namely Unohana, who is stronger than Kuruyashiki, this would not be an exaggeration.


4. Scaling Dangai scaling. Ichigo needs to fight Vasto Lord to reach Dangai form. This confirms that he has not yet surpassed Vasto Lord form. 1. Scaling confirms VL>FKT Ichigo. Apart from that, you can even consider VL as close to Dangai and Uluqiorra as top tier. But I think you won't accept this. So you can at least consider this as VL>FKT argument.

These are the ones that come to my mind. I'll answer your questions tomorrow. Good evening everyone
 
Apollonir.Scale said:
So we can say they have equal Ap and Lanza Del Relampago is Uluqiorra's strongest attack. So LDR should also increase in Ap.

If we scale Uluqiorra as I think we will have to lower the characters rated by lanza del relampago calculation which is measured as High 6-A. We will discuss this later.

Uluqiorra can withstand a Point Blank Cero from VL even when his guard is down. I see this as a stamina feat, not a durability feat. Uluqiorra says finish it already in the manga. So there's no need to assume that someone who accepts to die is at full durability. If he accepts to die, he can make it easier by lowering his guard and making it less painful.

In terms of speed, VL doesn't blitz Uluqiorra. If we need to explain the event from scratch, Uluqiorra can't see Ichigo because there is smoke in between. Then VL goes behind Uluqiorra using sonido. Using sonido hides Spiritual Pressure. That's why Uluqiorra couldn't sense VL's Spiritual Pressure. In the manga, he is surprised by asking how Pesquisa overcame him and confirms that he used sonido. In fact, throughout the battle, Uluqiorra is surprised by Ichigo's use of arrancar abilities such as cero and sonido. He loses because he is somehow surprised. If Uluqiorra hadn't been surprised, Ichigo would still have won, but at least it would have been harder. The battle in the manga is very different from the anime. Since Uluqiorra doesn't talk in the anime version, it's not exactly clear what's what. I used to say VL>>>>>>Uluqiorra, but it's really hard that this isn't the case. More like VL≥Uluqiorra. It cannot be claimed that Vl is immeasurably superior in terms of stats.

Let me also say this. When VL got behind Uluqiorra with Sonido, Uluqiorrra showed the reflex to turn his head back at the last moment. In other words, VL could not surpass Uluqiorra's perception speed despite using Sonido. He is definitely not much superior in terms of speed and there is no blitz situation.

Let me explain why he is stronger than Unohana.

1. Scaling: VL is stronger than FKT Ichigo and FKT Ichigo is the last hope. Gotei 13 is helpless against Aizen. VL>FKT Ichigo>Unohana, Shunui. Yamamoto is the exception since he is not in a fighting state at that time anyway. FKT Ichigo can react to Aizen and deal damage to him. This is consistent since Ichigo is called the last hope and the other Gotei 13 captains are helpless against Aizen in the same episode.

Aizen saw Yamamoto as the only captain with real power. The fact that he didn't include Unohana in this clearly confirms that he saw himself and Yamamoto as superior to Unohana.

2. Scaling is based on Uryu's words. Uryu sees Segunda Etapa Uluqiorra as stronger than anything he's seen. In fact, you are already using this statement in Uluqiorra's profile to say SE>Cero. Good but there is something better. Uryu sees Unohana, Yamamoto and Aizen at the end of the SS arc. According to Uryu's words, Segunda Etapa Uluqiorra>Pre-Hogyoku Aizen. You can say that the same Uryu said SAFWY Zaraki=VL in the novel, but as I said, this is a translation error and if we do not say translation error, Manga>Novel is canon. So we can accept Uryu's words in the manga and reject his statement in the novel. Or we can deny both. In both ways, we refute the idea of lowering Uluqiorra and VL over SAFWY Zaraki and Cien.
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cookin 🤯
 
I only finished the first novel and like 2 chapters of the second novel so no clue on statements and stuff past Barragan and the other dude tieing or just not bothering each other cause it would be a pain or something.
Arc7Kuroi said:
No those statements are about a Barragan from thousands of years ago, there’s no reason to apply them to an Espada Barragan.
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Ah okay
Arc7Kuroi said:
We even have due reason to believe this younger Barragan is stronger than his older self.
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We do?
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
No those statements are about a Barragan from thousands of years ago, there’s no reason to apply them to an Espada Barragan. We even have due reason to believe this younger Barragan is stronger than his older self.
Click to expand...
Then we probably can give him that key.
 
We should apply logic when scaling, otherwise, everyone would end up scaling to everyone. For example, Ulquiorra is weaker than Yammy, as confirmed by multiple sources, and he was getting bullied by eyepatch-on Zaraki. So how can anyone claim that Ulquiorra scales to true-power Shikai Zaraki (4A), two arcs later, when he couldn’t even be argued to be above restricted Arrancar-arc Zaraki? We should use scaling first, not some statements here and there.
 
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The statements support you 9Luck lol, Apollonir is taking them either in bad faith or out of context. I didn’t bother responding in depth cuz he’s gonna make a CRT so I’ll wait for that
 
.
Apollonir.Scale said:
Uluqiorra can clash ceros of equal power with VL. If a cero is superior to another cero, the superior destroys the weaker one and continues to advance as a result of this clash. Grimmjo vs Shinji is a good example of this. (2:09)



So we can say they have equal Ap and Lanza Del Relampago is Uluqiorra's strongest attack. So LDR should also increase in Ap.
Click to expand...

Idk how to format things that well and I’m on mobile

Some things to note with this point is that Ulq was using Cero Oscuras (an order of magnitude amp) and Ichigo was using normal Ceros, and Ulq still said Ichigo’s overpowered his rather than clashed, so I don’t think you can in good faith say they’re equal.

And then what cements it is Ichigo quite literally crushing and dispelling Lanza, which is stronger than Gran Rey which is stronger than Oscuras which is 10x R2 Ulq’s normal cero/AP output….with one hand/claw

For point 1.) Striped Mask Ichigo was constantly wavering, but Full Hollow Ichigo might not scale above the peak Striped Mask Ichigo (the one that was able to damage and wound Aizen…the one who Aizen said has ‘magnificent’ reiatsu and said potentially could’ve killed him if he struck right).

We know that Hollow Zangetsu was still in Full Hollow form in Ichigo’s inner world and Ichigo draws on the current power of his inner hollow. Usually he was wavering but in those moments against Aizen he was fully resolved and possibly tapping into the ‘full power’ (air quotes) of his Hollow Zan spirit.

2.) With the Uryu point, he never sensed Yama or Unohana in a battle ready sense or where they were exerting any spiritual energy. As for Aizen, he used some power, but he had the line of ‘it’s hard not to crush an ant when you step on it’ or something like that, meaning he was purposefully holding himself back as much as possible to not kill anyone. The most devastating attack he did was a Hado 90 at 1/3 power which ended up doing less damage to Komamura than Aizen’s sword slash did to Komamura’s Bankai…against a stronger Komamura, highlighting how suppressed he was.

Won’t touch on point 3 cuz I haven’t read the novel, just some of the scaling. Only thing I will say is that Squad 0 are likely 4-A (scaling to the Squad 0 level of 4-A and not the Gremmy upscale) after they go through their soul king enhanced training methods and rituals. But I haven’t read the novel to see the context on if Kenpachi 7 could and should upscale from Gremmy too due to chain scaling

And for point 4.) Ichigo didn’t have to fight the Full Hollow Zangetsu to learn Dangai, he has to fight the Full Hollow Zangetsu fused with Quincy Zangetsu. We don’t really know how fusion works in Bleach but it’s likely an entirely different realm of power than QZ and HZ individually
 
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Arc7Kuroi said:
No those statements are about a Barragan from thousands of years ago, there’s no reason to apply them to an Espada Barragan. We even have due reason to believe this younger Barragan is stronger than his older self.
Click to expand...

I distinctly remember Barragan saying he was at his strongest during the Fake Karakura Town arc, am I mistaken?

Plus, there are some things that imply that Ikomikidomoe got stronger after his fights with Barragan.
 
Btw regarding bleach's powernull system, should it be limited to only shinigamis? Since Aizen only stated battle between soul reapers where they can nullify abilities by just having higher Reiryoku

Doesn't work on other races like Quincies. An example is Askin effecting Ichigo, Uryu countering Yhwach's almighty and Pernida effecting Kenpachi
 
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