Gremmy's scaling downgrade — The V.

[Anypersonburnimagines]

So, a CRT was recently accepted confirming that Gremmy's Visionary operates on a 4-A scale (Gremmy Upgrade). And honestly, I think that's a fair take. The feat where he creates a space filled with constellations is directly stated in the novel and visually supported in the anime — it doesn’t need to be exaggerated.

What surprises me, though, is how some people have been scaling other characters based on that feat. The usual claim is:

“Zaraki achieved 4-A because he overpowered Gremmy’s imagination.”

But here’s the issue: that’s not exactly what happened.

---

​

What actually happened between Zaraki x Gremmy​

Spoiler

Nowhere is it stated that Zaraki overpowered the Visionary itself. What is stated — and this is crucial — is that Gremmy’s own body couldn’t handle the power he imagined for himself.

Let’s break it down:

• Gremmy wasn’t imagining Zaraki’s power.
• He imagined a power that exceeded Zaraki's full strength. The novel makes that very clear — and the manga also visually supports it.
• Zaraki even says himself that he didn't defeat Gremmy — The idea of the "monster" that Gremmy imagined Zaraki to be is what defeated him.

So, the actual power scaling here looks like this:

The physical durability of Gremmy’s imagined body < The “monster” he envisioned Zaraki to be < The power he conjured to overcome that very “monster.

---

The clones and spacial feat scalling with Zaraki​

Spoiler

Here’s something people tend to overlook:

• The space filled with constellations was created by seven or eight Gremmys.
• Meanwhile, the power he used to surpass Zaraki? That came from just one Gremmy.

So even if Zaraki somehow overpowered the Visionary — which again, he didn’t — that wouldn’t prove he’s stronger than the 7/8 Visionary version of Gremmy. The comparison just doesn’t hold up.

To put it simply:

• Zaraki's Power ≠ Visionary feat 4-A space using imagination of 7/8 Gremmys.
• Zaraki's Power > The Visionary of one single Gremmy

Different contexts. Not comparable.

But that’s not the case — since, in the end, he was able to conjure power that surpasses Zaraki’s, even if it wasn’t compatible with the durability of his own body.

---

Gremmy’s Body ≠ Visionary Power​

Spoiler

Another point that tends to get ignored is that Gremmy’s body isn’t even real. It’s an imagined construct — a form created by the Visionary. His true form is literally just a brain in a containment tank.

So what does this mean?

• Means the energy powering Visionary creations doesn’t come from Gremmy’s body — not even when he multiplies. In other words, the Visionary’s potential It has no connection to the durability of Gremmy’s body. So feats performed by the Visionary can’t be directly scaled to his physical strength.
  
  
• With that in mind, the energy output from his body exploding shouldn’t be considered above the Visionary’s 4-A space-creation feat. That feat doesn’t demand anything physical — just imagination. Whereas the body explosion is a product of that imagination, but channeled through his body.

More specifically:

Imagined space ≠ explosion of imagined durability

---

On Yhwach, Yamamoto, and the Claim of Being Beyond the Visionary​

Spoiler

Some people argue that Yhwach and Yamamoto Bankai surpass the Visionary because Yhwach said no one except him could handle it. This led to claims that Yamamoto and Yhwach scale above Gremmy’s 4-A feat. But honestly, that logic is pretty shaky. Here’s why:

1) Yamamoto’s Bankai ≠ Visionary’s Limits

The fact that Gremmy couldn’t handle Yamamoto’s Bankai doesn’t necessarily mean his imagination couldn’t.
Those are two totally different things — especially since we know the Visionary operates beyond Gremmy’s physical body. Gremmy’s not a brute-force type — he’s dangerous because of hax, not strength.

2) The Visionary has no fixed level

The Visionary’s strength can be scaled depending on how many clones Gremmy brings in. So it has no static power cap. You can’t just say “Yamamoto’s Bankai > no matter how many clones Gremmy uses.” — because that’s just not how the ability works.

3) Yhwach never saw the visionary at full power

There’s no solid evidence that Yhwach ever saw the ability pushed to its limits. In fact, based on how the story frames Gremmy's fight with Zaraki, this clearly the first time Gremmy ever had to go all out. He’s portrayed as someone who never needed to before — not until he fought Zaraki.

So banking on the idea “Yhwach knew everything about Gremmy’s potential and Visionary limits” — and assuming his statement about Yamamoto being the strongest (aside from himself) includes every possible version of Gremmy — just doesn’t hold up. He could’ve simply been referencing the version of Gremmy he was familiar with — not the maxed-out clone-stacking Visionary that only showed up during the Zaraki fight.

---

​

Common Counterpoints (And why they shouldn't be taken seriously)​

Spoiler

“Yhwach gave him the Schrift — he must know the full potential of the Visionary.”

Sure, he might understand how the ability works in theory. But that doesn’t mean he saw what it could actually do — especially once Gremmy started multiplying. Only Gremmy took the Visionary that far. So saying Yhwach would’ve taken it there too? That’s just speculation. We don’t even know if Yhwach ever used it himself.

“But he sealed Gremmy. That means he’s stronger than Gremmy with the Visionary.”

Not necessarily. Sealing someone doesn’t automatically mean power superiority. It often just implies a strategic advantage — knowing your opponent’s weakness can let you bypass brute strength altogether.

A well-known example:

• Kaguya was sealed by Naruto and Sasuke with Chibaku Tensei, even though they weren’t stronger than her in raw power. That wasn’t about power — it was about strategy and sealing mechanics.

Plus, we don’t even know if Gremmy tried to break the seal — or if he pushed the Visionary to its limits to escape. All we know is that Zaraki was the toughest opponent he’s ever had to face.

---

Suggested Revisions​

Spoiler

1) Remove Berserker scaling above 4-A Visionary:

a) Agree:​

b) Disagree:​

2) Remove Warlords scaling above 4-A Visionary:

a) Agree:​

b) Disagree:​

 

[Infinite9Luck]

There are many incorrect points here, honestly, this is bit poorly made since you failed to address many points that were accepted. But let’s address them one by one.

First of all, that’s not the only reason Zaraki scales to Gremmy. He also scales to the explosion caused by Gremmy’s clones, as was clearly accepted in the thread. You completely ignored that aspect of the scaling, which makes your dismissal of it invalid from the start by this alone. But let’s continue.

This was explained in detail here as proof:
https://vsbattles.com/threads/gremmy-scaling-ramifications.178108/

The points regarding Yhwach and Yamamoto were also covered in that thread, none of which you acknowledged fully making the debunk not complete. Furthermore, a novel written after the TYBW arc, from an omniscient narrator, explicitly states that Yhwach was the strongest, even above Gremmy. That alone confirms he scales above the Visionary’s peak. Gremmy was put into submission by Yhwach as well.

Also, dismissing everything as just "hax" is misleading. Gremmy’s powers are related to energy output, which increases his attack potency, so it's not purely an ability in isolation, it scales with output as proved in the thread which you didn't again, addressed.

And most importantly, it's also very incorrect to claim that Gremmy power has "no cap," when it's blatantly shown that overusing clones and energy causes serious fatigue. Which objectively imply his powers have limits.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I agree with downgrade

 

[Damage3245]

I'm also in agreement so far, but I'll wait to see the OP's responses to the counter-arguments before casting an official vote.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I’ll comment later got some things to do in my day first and then I’ll hopefully get around to reading this lol

 

[Anypersonburnimagines]

There are many incorrect points here, honestly, this is bit poorly made since you failed to address many points that were accepted. But let’s address them one by one.

First of all, that’s not the only reason Zaraki scales to Gremmy. He also scales to the explosion caused by Gremmy’s clones, as was clearly accepted in the thread. You completely ignored that aspect of the scaling, which makes your dismissal of it invalid from the start by this alone. But let’s continue.

This was explained in detail here as proof:
https://vsbattles.com/threads/gremmy-scaling-ramifications.178108/

Actually, I believe I’ve already addressed this argument in the thread. If I’m not mistaken, the scaling of Zaraki over Gremmy’s 4-A level imagination comes from two main points:

1. Gremmy couldn’t handle Zaraki’s power.
2. Gremmy started gasping after his bodies exploded.

However, this isn’t entirely accurate. As I’ve already explained, Gremmy’s body isn’t real. It’s a construct imagined into existence through The Visionary. His actual form is just a brain.

This essentially means the energy that powers the creations of The Visionary doesn’t originate from his imagined body — so the potential of The Visionary isn’t tied to the durability of Gremmy’s physical form. With that in mind, his 4-A space creation feat isn’t the result of energy being emitted by his body, but rather the product of his imagination. That’s quite different from his own explosion, which is a result of that imagination — but the energy behind that is channeled directly through his body.

Another reason this scaling might be flawed is that the 4-A space was created by seven or eight Gremmys, while only one Gremmy supposedly had his imagination overpowered by Zaraki. That’s not a solid correlation — the more Gremmy clones there are, the stronger his imagination becomes.

The points regarding Yhwach and Yamamoto were also covered in that thread, none of which you acknowledged fully making the debunk not complete. Furthermore, a novel written after the TYBW arc, from an omniscient narrator, explicitly states that Yhwach was the strongest, even above Gremmy. That alone confirms he scales above the Visionary’s peak. Gremmy was put into submission by Yhwach as well.

I'm familiar with that passage, and no — it doesn't reflect an omniscient judgment from the narrator, but rather how Gremmy's reputation was perceived by the other characters within his social context. Let me explain why, step by step:

The line:

Gremmy Thoumeaux: that was the name of a boy who, except for Yhwach, was considered the strongest of the Stern Ritter — someone who could defeat anyone”

— reveals a clear relationship between narrative enunciation and represented discourse. The use of the verb form “was considered” carries linguistic and semantic weight — the narrator isn't asserting from their own perspective that Gremmy was objectively the strongest (after Yhwach), but rather expressing how the characters within the story perceived him and held him in regard.

This technique is known in narratology as external focalization with a mark of indirect perception. The narrator is speaking from an outside perspective but signals that this value judgment (“the strongest of the Stern Ritter”) does not originate from them. It is instead a constructed reputation held by others — what linguistics refers to as attributed voice. And crucially, this voice is not Gremmy’s (as some claim), but rather that of the collective — likely the Stern Ritter themselves or the larger Quincy army.

The word “considered” is key here. It creates an epistemic distance: the narrator is aware of this view because it’s how others saw Gremmy, but they don’t endorse it as an absolute fact. If that were the case, the narration would have used a direct and affirmative structure, like:

“Gremmy Thoumeaux is the strongest of the Stern Ritter, second only to Yhwach.”

Instead, the text deliberately chooses a subjective formulation, reflecting a general in-universe perception. This is further reinforced by two elements:

• “Considered” – implies social perception, not objective truth.
• “Someone who could defeat anyone” – an open-ended, speculative phrasing that suggests potential, not confirmed fact.

Moreover, this opinion cannot be attributed to Gremmy himself, as some argue, because the narrator immediately reveals truths that Gremmy had hidden from others, such as the fact that he wasn’t really a boy at all.

So, interpreting this statement as an objective truth — or as the narrator’s personal thought — is a misreading. It’s a reflection of how Gremmy was viewed socially, not a definitive ranking. The narrator is telling us how others saw him, not how powerful he truly was.

Also, dismissing everything as just "hax" is misleading. Gremmy’s powers are related to energy output, which increases his attack potency, so it's not purely an ability in isolation, it scales with output as proved in the thread which you didn't again, addressed.

And most importantly, it's also very incorrect to claim that Gremmy power has "no cap," when it's blatantly shown that overusing clones and energy causes serious fatigue. Which objectively imply his powers have limits.

I categorized Gremmy's 'Visionary' ability as a 'hax' because it doesn't directly involve physical attributes like durability. His own body isn't what generates the energy to fuel his Schrift — if his body is also a byproduct of his Schrift, how can it be the energy source for it? That just doesn't make sense.

And don’t get me wrong, I’m just saying that The V doesn’t have a fixed power limit because Gremmy’s imagination can be continuously expanded, especially with the number of clones he creates. Of course, he has a physical limit to the energy output his body can handle, as we saw when he created power surpassing Zaraki — but as I’ve mentioned before, his imagination itself isn’t bound by his physical power.

 

[Raiden38]

For now i agree with everything the OP said

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Actually, I believe I’ve already addressed this argument in the thread. If I’m not mistaken, the scaling of Zaraki over Gremmy’s 4-A level imagination comes from two main points:

1. Gremmy couldn’t handle Zaraki’s power.
2. Gremmy started gasping after his bodies exploded.

However, this isn’t entirely accurate. As I’ve already explained, Gremmy’s body isn’t real. It’s a construct imagined into existence through The Visionary. His actual form is just a brain.

This essentially means the energy that powers the creations of The Visionary doesn’t originate from his imagined body — so the potential of The Visionary isn’t tied to the durability of Gremmy’s physical form. With that in mind, his 4-A space creation feat isn’t the result of energy being emitted by his body, but rather the product of his imagination. That’s quite different from his own explosion, which is a result of that imagination — but the energy behind that is channeled directly through his body.

Another reason this scaling might be flawed is that the 4-A space was created by seven or eight Gremmys, while only one Gremmy supposedly had his imagination overpowered by Zaraki. That’s not a solid correlation — the more Gremmy clones there are, the stronger his imagination becomes.

You are kind of mistaken. It's not written on Kenpachi's page, for some reason, but the main reason he scales to Gremmy's 4-A feat is because he survived Gremmy's explosion.

Gremmy Thoumeaux

Gremmy Thoumeaux (グレミィ・トゥミュー, Guremī Tumyū?) is a Quincy and a member of the Wandenreich's Sternritter with the designation "V" - "The Visionary". In Can't Fear Your Own World, he is heavily implied to be the Brain of the Soul King. Tier: High 6-A, up to 4-A with The Visionary Name: Gremmy...

vsbattles.fandom.com

BLEACH: Gremmy upgrade

I have read discussion rules regarding this matter, and this is what it's stated: Do not attempt to upgrade Gremmy Thoumeaux based on his feat of creating outer space, as this feat, despite legitimately scaling to his statistics, is extremely inconsistent with his general performance and the...

vsbattles.com

Here's the original thread where that was decided.

I'm familiar with that passage, and no — it doesn't reflect an omniscient judgment from the narrator, but rather how Gremmy's reputation was perceived by the other characters within his social context. Let me explain why, step by step:

The line:

— reveals a clear relationship between narrative enunciation and represented discourse. The use of the verb form “was considered” carries linguistic and semantic weight — the narrator isn't asserting from their own perspective that Gremmy was objectively the strongest (after Yhwach), but rather expressing how the characters within the story perceived him and held him in regard.

This technique is known in narratology as external focalization with a mark of indirect perception. The narrator is speaking from an outside perspective but signals that this value judgment (“the strongest of the Stern Ritter”) does not originate from them. It is instead a constructed reputation held by others — what linguistics refers to as attributed voice. And crucially, this voice is not Gremmy’s (as some claim), but rather that of the collective — likely the Stern Ritter themselves or the larger Quincy army.

The word “considered” is key here. It creates an epistemic distance: the narrator is aware of this view because it’s how others saw Gremmy, but they don’t endorse it as an absolute fact. If that were the case, the narration would have used a direct and affirmative structure, like:

Instead, the text deliberately chooses a subjective formulation, reflecting a general in-universe perception. This is further reinforced by two elements:

• “Considered” – implies social perception, not objective truth.
• “Someone who could defeat anyone” – an open-ended, speculative phrasing that suggests potential, not confirmed fact.

Moreover, this opinion cannot be attributed to Gremmy himself, as some argue, because the narrator immediately reveals truths that Gremmy had hidden from others, such as the fact that he wasn’t really a boy at all.


So, interpreting this statement as an objective truth — or as the narrator’s personal thought — is a misreading. It’s a reflection of how Gremmy was viewed socially, not a definitive ranking. The narrator is telling us how others saw him, not how powerful he truly was.

Yhwach was able to create a seal that was strong enough to keep Gremmy locked in a room for centuries, which is another justification brought up for Yhwach being aware of the Visionary's strength (that's part of the reason base Yhwach currently scales above Gremmy's 4-A feat).

Gremmy Scaling Ramifications

Introduction Following the conclusion of this thread, this new thread here will serve to discuss primarily whether or not base Yhwach and Bankai Yamamoto scale. Since, if either of those two scale there are a handful of other characters that will end up scaling based on already accepted scaling...

vsbattles.com

I categorized Gremmy's 'Visionary' ability as a 'hax' because it doesn't directly involve physical attributes like durability. His own body isn't what generates the energy to fuel his Schrift — if his body is also a byproduct of his Schrift, how can it be the energy source for it? That just doesn't make sense.

And don’t get me wrong, I’m just saying that The V doesn’t have a fixed power limit because Gremmy’s imagination can be continuously expanded, especially with the number of clones he creates. Of course, he has a physical limit to the energy output his body can handle, as we saw when he created power surpassing Zaraki — but as I’ve mentioned before, his imagination itself isn’t bound by his physical power.

I mean, you yourself have brought up how having more bodies (more Gremmy's) is what allows his imagination power to expand and allow him to perform feats like creating a massive asteroid and outer space, so there seems to be some correlation.

 

[Anypersonburnimagines]

You are kind of mistaken. It's not written on Kenpachi's page, for some reason, but the main reason he scales to Gremmy's 4-A feat is because he survived Gremmy's explosion.

By the way, I also noticed another scaling argument being made for Gremmy’s explosion > Outer space (4-A), which goes something like this:

“It’s worth noting as support for the idea that the explosion was a highly powerful technique. And given that it was performed by the same number of Gremmys who created outer space, it’s very likely that it scales to his space feat.”

But that reasoning doesn’t really hold up. The number of Gremmys involved or the mere fact that they used a technique isn’t enough — because the way the explosion happened is fundamentally different from how the 4-A outer space feat was executed. Here’s why:

Unlike the explosion, where each clone imagined the detonation of their own body individually, the 4-A feat was executed by all the Gremmys collectively imagining a single, unified concept: outer space.

This is a key difference. The explosion scene was fragmented — each Gremmy acted independently, producing blasts. It wasn’t one large explosion powered by a joint mental effort. Each explosion was isolated, decentralized, and personal to each clone.

In contrast, the outer space feat was the result of all the Gremmys combining their imagination into one shared creation. They didn’t each imagine separate stars or galaxies — they envisioned a single cosmic space together. Their power was focused, synchronized, and amplified through cooperation.

So, you can’t assume the explosion scales to 4-A just because it involved “the same number of Gremmys.” The way their powers were used in each case was completely different — one was scattered and individual, the other unified and convergent. The structure, intent, and synergy behind the space feat make it a much more cohesive and large-scale application of Gremmy’s abilities.

Yhwach was able to create a seal that was strong enough to keep Gremmy locked in a room for centuries, which is another justification brought up for Yhwach being aware of the Visionary's strength (that's part of the reason base Yhwach currently scales above Gremmy's 4-A feat).

Gremmy Scaling Ramifications

Introduction Following the conclusion of this thread, this new thread here will serve to discuss primarily whether or not base Yhwach and Bankai Yamamoto scale. Since, if either of those two scale there are a handful of other characters that will end up scaling based on already accepted scaling...

vsbattles.com

That’s exactly the line of reasoning being questioned in the OP, because:

• Sure, he might understand how the ability works in theory. But that doesn’t mean he saw what it could actually do — especially once Gremmy started multiplying. Only Gremmy took the Visionary that far. So saying Yhwach would’ve taken it there too? That’s just speculation. We don’t even know if Yhwach ever used it himself.
  
  
• Not necessarily. Sealing someone doesn’t automatically mean power superiority. It often just implies a strategic advantage — knowing your opponent’s weakness can let you bypass brute strength altogether.

I mean, you yourself have brought up how having more bodies (more Gremmy's) is what allows his imagination power to expand and allow him to perform feats like creating a massive asteroid and outer space, so there seems to be some correlation.

Actually, that’s not exactly how I phrased it. The fact that Gremmy's power increases depending on how many clones he has behind him isn’t related to his physical strength — it’s solely based on his imagination capacity.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Introductions and Premises
So, I want to highlight what I believe is the first failing of the OP, and that is the premise. "Zaraki is 4-A because he overpowered Gremmy's imagination." That is not why he's 4-A at all, his justification for 4-A can be found here. Because in a vacuum, yes, you are correct when you say that isn't what exactly happened. Now, I know you still disagree with the scaling, but I want to establish out of the gate that 1) your premise is correct and 2) your premise does not defeat the argument I presented for Zaraki scaling.

The Proper Interpretation of Gremmy's Death

Spoiler: What did Gremmy Imagine?

You arrive at the conclusion that the power Gremmy imagined is stronger than Zaraki, and what's implicit there is that Gremmy's imagination > Zaraki. However, that misses a few key details and foreshadowing that the end of the Gremmy fight is setting up.

Here's the dialogue in question that is most significant to refuting your interpretation.

• Gremmy states he is going to imagine himself stronger than Zaraki, doing so causes his body to be ripped apart, and Zaraki states that Gremmy died because he turned Zaraki into a monster and that monster killed him.
  • Gremmy immediately refutes this. He says verbatim "Was I killed by my imagination (as Zaraki implied)? No, not that. That's not right Kenpachi Zaraki. My imagination was correct. And it was more than correct. I correctly imagined all your power. There's just one thing I didn't imagine. That is, only your body can withstand your power. What defeated me was not my imagination, but this body. No, this is just an excuse. I told you, right? I don't even need to use a finger to kill you. My body is all a product of my imagination. As I said, when dealing with you, I indeed didn't use a single finger."
• I'm going to break down each part of Gremmy's dialogue here and explain why it refutes specifically your What actually happened between Zaraki x Gremmy and Gremmy's Body =/= Visionary Power.
• "Was I killed by my imagination (as Zaraki implied)? No, not that. That's not right Kenpachi Zaraki."
  • The "imagination" Gremmy is referring to here is the idea of the "monster" that Zaraki speculates killed Gremmy. We know this to be true, because Gremmy is saying this as a direct response to Zaraki claiming that "monster" killed him. So, no the "monster" did not kill Gremmy as you claim, we are verbatim told that is not true.
• "My imagination was correct. And it was more than correct. I correctly imagined all your power."
  • This here is super important to reconciling a potential contradiction that arises if you don't read into this final dialogue more deeply. As Gremmy states, and CFYOW reiterates, Gremmy imagined a power that outstripped Zaraki. What's important here though is that Gremmy is imagining a power that outstrips EYEPATCH Shikai Zaraki. We know this to be true because Gremmy confirms that he imagined ALL of Zaraki's power, and the eyepatch nerfs Zaraki's power. Meaning, Eyepatch Shikai Zaraki < all of Zaraki's power at the moment = no eyepatch Shikai Zaraki = the power Gremmy imagined. Not only is this interpretation more consistent, it also doesn't pose any contradiction. We know that what Gremmy imagined was verbatim the correct portion of ALL of Zaraki's power, since he emphasizes how correctly he did so THREE times back to back. The "more than correct" part of Gremmy's statement is in reference that he referenced all of Zaraki's power which is more than the power he's using right now due to the eyepatch.
• "There's just one thing I didn't imagine. That is, only your body can withstand your power."
  • This statement here just provides further credence to the notion that Gremmy is referencing Zaraki's no eyepatch Shikai power. Since, Gremmy didn't consider the immense strain Zaraki's power can place on you, likely due to Zaraki not using ALL his power during the fight due to the eyepatch. Otherwise, this statement isn't really important to the debate too much, at its core it's just saying that Zaraki's body is super strong, which is like duh we know Gremmy.
• "What defeated me was not my imagination, but this body. No, this is just an excuse. I told you, right? I don't even need to use a finger to kill you. My body is all a product of my imagination. As I said, when dealing with you, I indeed didn't use a single finger."
  • You claim that Gremmy's "body" doesn't scale to the Visionary, and you use that to try and separate his two 8 Gremmy feats (outer space and the explosion). However, Gremmy disagrees with you, he verbatim states that his body IS his imagination. That is to say, just like how everything else Gremmy uses to fight is a product of The Visionary, so is his body, explicitly so.
  • I'm not going to address the whole "we can't scale 4-A to Gremmy's physicals", because if you read Gremmy's profile, we don't scale it to his physicals lol. So, that entire point is a non-sequitur when it comes to debunking the accepted 4-A scaling.

Your misunderstanding of the accepted scaling

Spoiler: How the scaling actually works

So, you bring up a lot of refutations to strawman arguments. That is to say, you're debunking arguments that aren't even used for the 4-A scaling, and I'll explain why.

• You claim that we use Gremmy accidentally killing himself to scale Zaraki.
  • Read this thread in depth to understand why we scale Zaraki to 4-A. Gremmy dying is not the reason, and rather it's what's logically entailed by the fight sequence and Gremmy's decisions that lead us to that conclusion.
• You make the claim that the explosions being from the bodies exploding debunks it scaling to the outer space.
  • I already refuted this above, there is no meaningful distinction between the body and The Visonary, given it's all a product of The Visionary. Additionally, Gremmy is detonating his imaginary body, so any notion that "his body can't contain X power" doesn't matter, since by turning his bodies into bombs, he's explicitly not having them contain the power in the body, they're releasing it all. It also coalesces into a single explosion, just like the outer space coalesces into a single space despite there being multiple Gremmy, so that doesn't work as refutation either. Again, check out my thread cuz it goes more in depth there.
• You use the same body =/= The Visonary point to refute Yama's Bankai scaling.
  • Once again, that claim has been debunked, Gremmy's body is just a direct creation of his Visionary. He even concedes that his body dying was because his imagination couldn't handle the power. Gremmy verbatim states that the body point is an excuse it's a lie that he used to cope about his loss, but Gremmy acknowledges himself that it is false cope.
• You imply Gremmy's The Visionary has no limits because he could imagine more clones.
  • That is a textbook no limits fallacy. We know his imagination explicitly has limits, because Gremmy says as much. You cannot claim he could make enough clones to contain Yama's Bankai without proof.
• You claim that because Yhwach never saw Gremmy fight all out, he doesn't know its power.
  • Once again, please check out my linked thread. That's another strawman you're debunking. We aren't even arguing that. The Yhwach argument is that he scales to Bankai Yama and that the narrator in CFYOW states he was stronger than Gremmy, and the narrator would know Gremmy's full power. All of the scans and such are in my linked thread, where I explain it in depth.

Conclusions
I think Gremmy speaks for me when I say that Anyperson misinterpreted the Zaraki Gremmy fight and the accompanying statements. I believe I've thoroughly disproven your claims and pointed out the flaw in your logic. You also strawman for well over half of your post, debunking arguments that we don't use for the 4-A scaling whatsoever (that's why I didn't address your counter points, because they are countering arguments I didn't make). On that basis, I believe this thread should be rejected by the OP's lack of understanding of why the scaling exists in the first place.

I want to conclude this post by saying, absolutely zero disrespect to Anyperson. I actually agree with a lot of your points, I just don't believe they're relevant to the actual accepted scaling. I appreciate everyone's willingness in having healthy discourse and God bless.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Introductions and Premises
So, I want to highlight what I believe is the first failing of the OP, and that is the premise. "Zaraki is 4-A because he overpowered Gremmy's imagination." That is not why he's 4-A at all, his justification for 4-A can be found here. Because in a vacuum, yes, you are correct when you say that isn't what exactly happened. Now, I know you still disagree with the scaling, but I want to establish out of the gate that 1) your premise is correct and 2) your premise does not defeat the argument I presented for Zaraki scaling.

The Proper Interpretation of Gremmy's Death

Spoiler: What did Gremmy Imagine?

You arrive at the conclusion that the power Gremmy imagined is stronger than Zaraki, and what's implicit there is that Gremmy's imagination > Zaraki. However, that misses a few key details and foreshadowing that the end of the Gremmy fight is setting up.

Here's the dialogue in question that is most significant to refuting your interpretation.

• Gremmy states he is going to imagine himself stronger than Zaraki, doing so causes his body to be ripped apart, and Zaraki states that Gremmy died because he turned Zaraki into a monster and that monster killed him.
  • Gremmy immediately refutes this. He says verbatim "Was I killed by my imagination (as Zaraki implied)? No, not that. That's not right Kenpachi Zaraki. My imagination was correct. And it was more than correct. I correctly imagined all your power. There's just one thing I didn't imagine. That is, only your body can withstand your power. What defeated me was not my imagination, but this body. No, this is just an excuse. I told you, right? I don't even need to use a finger to kill you. My body is all a product of my imagination. As I said, when dealing with you, I indeed didn't use a single finger."
• I'm going to break down each part of Gremmy's dialogue here and explain why it refutes specifically your What actually happened between Zaraki x Gremmy and Gremmy's Body =/= Visionary Power.
• "Was I killed by my imagination (as Zaraki implied)? No, not that. That's not right Kenpachi Zaraki."
  • The "imagination" Gremmy is referring to here is the idea of the "monster" that Zaraki speculates killed Gremmy. We know this to be true, because Gremmy is saying this as a direct response to Zaraki claiming that "monster" killed him. So, no the "monster" did not kill Gremmy as you claim, we are verbatim told that is not true.
• "My imagination was correct. And it was more than correct. I correctly imagined all your power."
  • This here is super important to reconciling a potential contradiction that arises if you don't read into this final dialogue more deeply. As Gremmy states, and CFYOW reiterates, Gremmy imagined a power that outstripped Zaraki. What's important here though is that Gremmy is imagining a power that outstrips EYEPATCH Shikai Zaraki. We know this to be true because Gremmy confirms that he imagined ALL of Zaraki's power, and the eyepatch nerfs Zaraki's power. Meaning, Eyepatch Shikai Zaraki < all of Zaraki's power at the moment = no eyepatch Shikai Zaraki = the power Gremmy imagined. Not only is this interpretation more consistent, it also doesn't pose any contradiction. We know that what Gremmy imagined was verbatim the correct portion of ALL of Zaraki's power, since he emphasizes how correctly he did so THREE times back to back. The "more than correct" part of Gremmy's statement is in reference that he referenced all of Zaraki's power which is more than the power he's using right now due to the eyepatch.
• "There's just one thing I didn't imagine. That is, only your body can withstand your power."
  • This statement here just provides further credence to the notion that Gremmy is referencing Zaraki's no eyepatch Shikai power. Since, Gremmy didn't consider the immense strain Zaraki's power can place on you, likely due to Zaraki not using ALL his power during the fight due to the eyepatch. Otherwise, this statement isn't really important to the debate too much, at its core it's just saying that Zaraki's body is super strong, which is like duh we know Gremmy.
• "What defeated me was not my imagination, but this body. No, this is just an excuse. I told you, right? I don't even need to use a finger to kill you. My body is all a product of my imagination. As I said, when dealing with you, I indeed didn't use a single finger."
  • You claim that Gremmy's "body" doesn't scale to the Visionary, and you use that to try and separate his two 8 Gremmy feats (outer space and the explosion). However, Gremmy disagrees with you, he verbatim states that his body IS his imagination. That is to say, just like how everything else Gremmy uses to fight is a product of The Visionary, so is his body, explicitly so.
  • I'm not going to address the whole "we can't scale 4-A to Gremmy's physicals", because if you read Gremmy's profile, we don't scale it to his physicals lol. So, that entire point is a non-sequitur when it comes to debunking the accepted 4-A scaling.

Your misunderstanding of the accepted scaling

Spoiler: How the scaling actually works

So, you bring up a lot of refutations to strawman arguments. That is to say, you're debunking arguments that aren't even used for the 4-A scaling, and I'll explain why.

• You claim that we use Gremmy accidentally killing himself to scale Zaraki.
  • Read this thread in depth to understand why we scale Zaraki to 4-A. Gremmy dying is not the reason, and rather it's what's logically entailed by the fight sequence and Gremmy's decisions that lead us to that conclusion.
• You make the claim that the explosions being from the bodies exploding debunks it scaling to the outer space.
  • I already refuted this above, there is no meaningful distinction between the body and The Visonary, given it's all a product of The Visionary. Additionally, Gremmy is detonating his imaginary body, so any notion that "his body can't contain X power" doesn't matter, since by turning his bodies into bombs, he's explicitly not having them contain the power in the body, they're releasing it all. It also coalesces into a single explosion, just like the outer space coalesces into a single space despite there being multiple Gremmy, so that doesn't work as refutation either. Again, check out my thread cuz it goes more in depth there.
• You use the same body =/= The Visonary point to refute Yama's Bankai scaling.
  • Once again, that claim has been debunked, Gremmy's body is just a direct creation of his Visionary. He even concedes that his body dying was because his imagination couldn't handle the power. Gremmy verbatim states that the body point is an excuse it's a lie that he used to cope about his loss, but Gremmy acknowledges himself that it is false cope.
• You imply Gremmy's The Visionary has no limits because he could imagine more clones.
  • That is a textbook no limits fallacy. We know his imagination explicitly has limits, because Gremmy says as much. You cannot claim he could make enough clones to contain Yama's Bankai without proof.
• You claim that because Yhwach never saw Gremmy fight all out, he doesn't know its power.
  • Once again, please check out my linked thread. That's another strawman you're debunking. We aren't even arguing that. The Yhwach argument is that he scales to Bankai Yama and that the narrator in CFYOW states he was stronger than Gremmy, and the narrator would know Gremmy's full power. All of the scans and such are in my linked thread, where I explain it in depth.

Conclusions
I think Gremmy speaks for me when I say that Anyperson misinterpreted the Zaraki Gremmy fight and the accompanying statements. I believe I've thoroughly disproven your claims and pointed out the flaw in your logic. You also strawman for well over half of your post, debunking arguments that we don't use for the 4-A scaling whatsoever (that's why I didn't address your counter points, because they are countering arguments I didn't make). On that basis, I believe this thread should be rejected by the OP's lack of understanding of why the scaling exists in the first place.

I want to conclude this post by saying, absolutely zero disrespect to Anyperson. I actually agree with a lot of your points, I just don't believe they're relevant to the actual accepted scaling. I appreciate everyone's willingness in having healthy discourse and God bless.

There is a couple of points here I hadn't considered myself. I, like many people undoubtedly, got too caught up on Zaraki's comment about the monster, that I completely failed to truly pay attention to Gremmy's own conclusion. So kudos to that, my friend.

I agree with this conclusion.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

By the way, I also noticed another scaling argument being made for Gremmy’s explosion > Outer space (4-A), which goes something like this:

But that reasoning doesn’t really hold up. The number of Gremmys involved or the mere fact that they used a technique isn’t enough — because the way the explosion happened is fundamentally different from how the 4-A outer space feat was executed. Here’s why:

Unlike the explosion, where each clone imagined the detonation of their own body individually, the 4-A feat was executed by all the Gremmys collectively imagining a single, unified concept: outer space.

This is a key difference. The explosion scene was fragmented — each Gremmy acted independently, producing blasts. It wasn’t one large explosion powered by a joint mental effort. Each explosion was isolated, decentralized, and personal to each clone.

In contrast, the outer space feat was the result of all the Gremmys combining their imagination into one shared creation. They didn’t each imagine separate stars or galaxies — they envisioned a single cosmic space together. Their power was focused, synchronized, and amplified through cooperation.

So, you can’t assume the explosion scales to 4-A just because it involved “the same number of Gremmys.” The way their powers were used in each case was completely different — one was scattered and individual, the other unified and convergent. The structure, intent, and synergy behind the space feat make it a much more cohesive and large-scale application of Gremmy’s abilities.

The reason Gremmy's explosions are scaled above Gremmy creating outer space is because Gremmy did it as a last ditch attempt to kill Kenpachi after Kenpachi cut through Gremmy's space, and it seemed to take more effort for Gremmy to pull off than creating outer space. This is detailed in this thread.

Gremmy Scaling Ramifications

Introduction Following the conclusion of this thread, this new thread here will serve to discuss primarily whether or not base Yhwach and Bankai Yamamoto scale. Since, if either of those two scale there are a handful of other characters that will end up scaling based on already accepted scaling...

vsbattles.com

Anyway, Arc covered the rest, and he's better at explaining the scaling than me, so I'll let him just do the rest.

 

[Reiner04]

Introductions and Premises
So, I want to highlight what I believe is the first failing of the OP, and that is the premise. "Zaraki is 4-A because he overpowered Gremmy's imagination." That is not why he's 4-A at all, his justification for 4-A can be found here. Because in a vacuum, yes, you are correct when you say that isn't what exactly happened. Now, I know you still disagree with the scaling, but I want to establish out of the gate that 1) your premise is correct and 2) your premise does not defeat the argument I presented for Zaraki scaling.

The Proper Interpretation of Gremmy's Death

Spoiler: What did Gremmy Imagine?

You arrive at the conclusion that the power Gremmy imagined is stronger than Zaraki, and what's implicit there is that Gremmy's imagination > Zaraki. However, that misses a few key details and foreshadowing that the end of the Gremmy fight is setting up.

Here's the dialogue in question that is most significant to refuting your interpretation.

• Gremmy states he is going to imagine himself stronger than Zaraki, doing so causes his body to be ripped apart, and Zaraki states that Gremmy died because he turned Zaraki into a monster and that monster killed him.
  • Gremmy immediately refutes this. He says verbatim "Was I killed by my imagination (as Zaraki implied)? No, not that. That's not right Kenpachi Zaraki. My imagination was correct. And it was more than correct. I correctly imagined all your power. There's just one thing I didn't imagine. That is, only your body can withstand your power. What defeated me was not my imagination, but this body. No, this is just an excuse. I told you, right? I don't even need to use a finger to kill you. My body is all a product of my imagination. As I said, when dealing with you, I indeed didn't use a single finger."
• I'm going to break down each part of Gremmy's dialogue here and explain why it refutes specifically your What actually happened between Zaraki x Gremmy and Gremmy's Body =/= Visionary Power.
• "Was I killed by my imagination (as Zaraki implied)? No, not that. That's not right Kenpachi Zaraki."
  • The "imagination" Gremmy is referring to here is the idea of the "monster" that Zaraki speculates killed Gremmy. We know this to be true, because Gremmy is saying this as a direct response to Zaraki claiming that "monster" killed him. So, no the "monster" did not kill Gremmy as you claim, we are verbatim told that is not true.
• "My imagination was correct. And it was more than correct. I correctly imagined all your power."
  • This here is super important to reconciling a potential contradiction that arises if you don't read into this final dialogue more deeply. As Gremmy states, and CFYOW reiterates, Gremmy imagined a power that outstripped Zaraki. What's important here though is that Gremmy is imagining a power that outstrips EYEPATCH Shikai Zaraki. We know this to be true because Gremmy confirms that he imagined ALL of Zaraki's power, and the eyepatch nerfs Zaraki's power. Meaning, Eyepatch Shikai Zaraki < all of Zaraki's power at the moment = no eyepatch Shikai Zaraki = the power Gremmy imagined. Not only is this interpretation more consistent, it also doesn't pose any contradiction. We know that what Gremmy imagined was verbatim the correct portion of ALL of Zaraki's power, since he emphasizes how correctly he did so THREE times back to back. The "more than correct" part of Gremmy's statement is in reference that he referenced all of Zaraki's power which is more than the power he's using right now due to the eyepatch.
• "There's just one thing I didn't imagine. That is, only your body can withstand your power."
  • This statement here just provides further credence to the notion that Gremmy is referencing Zaraki's no eyepatch Shikai power. Since, Gremmy didn't consider the immense strain Zaraki's power can place on you, likely due to Zaraki not using ALL his power during the fight due to the eyepatch. Otherwise, this statement isn't really important to the debate too much, at its core it's just saying that Zaraki's body is super strong, which is like duh we know Gremmy.
• "What defeated me was not my imagination, but this body. No, this is just an excuse. I told you, right? I don't even need to use a finger to kill you. My body is all a product of my imagination. As I said, when dealing with you, I indeed didn't use a single finger."
  • You claim that Gremmy's "body" doesn't scale to the Visionary, and you use that to try and separate his two 8 Gremmy feats (outer space and the explosion). However, Gremmy disagrees with you, he verbatim states that his body IS his imagination. That is to say, just like how everything else Gremmy uses to fight is a product of The Visionary, so is his body, explicitly so.
  • I'm not going to address the whole "we can't scale 4-A to Gremmy's physicals", because if you read Gremmy's profile, we don't scale it to his physicals lol. So, that entire point is a non-sequitur when it comes to debunking the accepted 4-A scaling.

Your misunderstanding of the accepted scaling

Spoiler: How the scaling actually works

So, you bring up a lot of refutations to strawman arguments. That is to say, you're debunking arguments that aren't even used for the 4-A scaling, and I'll explain why.

• You claim that we use Gremmy accidentally killing himself to scale Zaraki.
  • Read this thread in depth to understand why we scale Zaraki to 4-A. Gremmy dying is not the reason, and rather it's what's logically entailed by the fight sequence and Gremmy's decisions that lead us to that conclusion.
• You make the claim that the explosions being from the bodies exploding debunks it scaling to the outer space.
  • I already refuted this above, there is no meaningful distinction between the body and The Visonary, given it's all a product of The Visionary. Additionally, Gremmy is detonating his imaginary body, so any notion that "his body can't contain X power" doesn't matter, since by turning his bodies into bombs, he's explicitly not having them contain the power in the body, they're releasing it all. It also coalesces into a single explosion, just like the outer space coalesces into a single space despite there being multiple Gremmy, so that doesn't work as refutation either. Again, check out my thread cuz it goes more in depth there.
• You use the same body =/= The Visonary point to refute Yama's Bankai scaling.
  • Once again, that claim has been debunked, Gremmy's body is just a direct creation of his Visionary. He even concedes that his body dying was because his imagination couldn't handle the power. Gremmy verbatim states that the body point is an excuse it's a lie that he used to cope about his loss, but Gremmy acknowledges himself that it is false cope.
• You imply Gremmy's The Visionary has no limits because he could imagine more clones.
  • That is a textbook no limits fallacy. We know his imagination explicitly has limits, because Gremmy says as much. You cannot claim he could make enough clones to contain Yama's Bankai without proof.
• You claim that because Yhwach never saw Gremmy fight all out, he doesn't know its power.
  • Once again, please check out my linked thread. That's another strawman you're debunking. We aren't even arguing that. The Yhwach argument is that he scales to Bankai Yama and that the narrator in CFYOW states he was stronger than Gremmy, and the narrator would know Gremmy's full power. All of the scans and such are in my linked thread, where I explain it in depth.

Conclusions
I think Gremmy speaks for me when I say that Anyperson misinterpreted the Zaraki Gremmy fight and the accompanying statements. I believe I've thoroughly disproven your claims and pointed out the flaw in your logic. You also strawman for well over half of your post, debunking arguments that we don't use for the 4-A scaling whatsoever (that's why I didn't address your counter points, because they are countering arguments I didn't make). On that basis, I believe this thread should be rejected by the OP's lack of understanding of why the scaling exists in the first place.

I want to conclude this post by saying, absolutely zero disrespect to Anyperson. I actually agree with a lot of your points, I just don't believe they're relevant to the actual accepted scaling. I appreciate everyone's willingness in having healthy discourse and God bless.

I agree with this conclusion.

 

[LordTracer]

Introductions and Premises
So, I want to highlight what I believe is the first failing of the OP, and that is the premise. "Zaraki is 4-A because he overpowered Gremmy's imagination." That is not why he's 4-A at all, his justification for 4-A can be found here. Because in a vacuum, yes, you are correct when you say that isn't what exactly happened. Now, I know you still disagree with the scaling, but I want to establish out of the gate that 1) your premise is correct and 2) your premise does not defeat the argument I presented for Zaraki scaling.

The Proper Interpretation of Gremmy's Death

Spoiler: What did Gremmy Imagine?

You arrive at the conclusion that the power Gremmy imagined is stronger than Zaraki, and what's implicit there is that Gremmy's imagination > Zaraki. However, that misses a few key details and foreshadowing that the end of the Gremmy fight is setting up.

Here's the dialogue in question that is most significant to refuting your interpretation.

• Gremmy states he is going to imagine himself stronger than Zaraki, doing so causes his body to be ripped apart, and Zaraki states that Gremmy died because he turned Zaraki into a monster and that monster killed him.
  • Gremmy immediately refutes this. He says verbatim "Was I killed by my imagination (as Zaraki implied)? No, not that. That's not right Kenpachi Zaraki. My imagination was correct. And it was more than correct. I correctly imagined all your power. There's just one thing I didn't imagine. That is, only your body can withstand your power. What defeated me was not my imagination, but this body. No, this is just an excuse. I told you, right? I don't even need to use a finger to kill you. My body is all a product of my imagination. As I said, when dealing with you, I indeed didn't use a single finger."
• I'm going to break down each part of Gremmy's dialogue here and explain why it refutes specifically your What actually happened between Zaraki x Gremmy and Gremmy's Body =/= Visionary Power.
• "Was I killed by my imagination (as Zaraki implied)? No, not that. That's not right Kenpachi Zaraki."
  • The "imagination" Gremmy is referring to here is the idea of the "monster" that Zaraki speculates killed Gremmy. We know this to be true, because Gremmy is saying this as a direct response to Zaraki claiming that "monster" killed him. So, no the "monster" did not kill Gremmy as you claim, we are verbatim told that is not true.
• "My imagination was correct. And it was more than correct. I correctly imagined all your power."
  • This here is super important to reconciling a potential contradiction that arises if you don't read into this final dialogue more deeply. As Gremmy states, and CFYOW reiterates, Gremmy imagined a power that outstripped Zaraki. What's important here though is that Gremmy is imagining a power that outstrips EYEPATCH Shikai Zaraki. We know this to be true because Gremmy confirms that he imagined ALL of Zaraki's power, and the eyepatch nerfs Zaraki's power. Meaning, Eyepatch Shikai Zaraki < all of Zaraki's power at the moment = no eyepatch Shikai Zaraki = the power Gremmy imagined. Not only is this interpretation more consistent, it also doesn't pose any contradiction. We know that what Gremmy imagined was verbatim the correct portion of ALL of Zaraki's power, since he emphasizes how correctly he did so THREE times back to back. The "more than correct" part of Gremmy's statement is in reference that he referenced all of Zaraki's power which is more than the power he's using right now due to the eyepatch.
• "There's just one thing I didn't imagine. That is, only your body can withstand your power."
  • This statement here just provides further credence to the notion that Gremmy is referencing Zaraki's no eyepatch Shikai power. Since, Gremmy didn't consider the immense strain Zaraki's power can place on you, likely due to Zaraki not using ALL his power during the fight due to the eyepatch. Otherwise, this statement isn't really important to the debate too much, at its core it's just saying that Zaraki's body is super strong, which is like duh we know Gremmy.
• "What defeated me was not my imagination, but this body. No, this is just an excuse. I told you, right? I don't even need to use a finger to kill you. My body is all a product of my imagination. As I said, when dealing with you, I indeed didn't use a single finger."
  • You claim that Gremmy's "body" doesn't scale to the Visionary, and you use that to try and separate his two 8 Gremmy feats (outer space and the explosion). However, Gremmy disagrees with you, he verbatim states that his body IS his imagination. That is to say, just like how everything else Gremmy uses to fight is a product of The Visionary, so is his body, explicitly so.
  • I'm not going to address the whole "we can't scale 4-A to Gremmy's physicals", because if you read Gremmy's profile, we don't scale it to his physicals lol. So, that entire point is a non-sequitur when it comes to debunking the accepted 4-A scaling.

Your misunderstanding of the accepted scaling

Spoiler: How the scaling actually works

So, you bring up a lot of refutations to strawman arguments. That is to say, you're debunking arguments that aren't even used for the 4-A scaling, and I'll explain why.

• You claim that we use Gremmy accidentally killing himself to scale Zaraki.
  • Read this thread in depth to understand why we scale Zaraki to 4-A. Gremmy dying is not the reason, and rather it's what's logically entailed by the fight sequence and Gremmy's decisions that lead us to that conclusion.
• You make the claim that the explosions being from the bodies exploding debunks it scaling to the outer space.
  • I already refuted this above, there is no meaningful distinction between the body and The Visonary, given it's all a product of The Visionary. Additionally, Gremmy is detonating his imaginary body, so any notion that "his body can't contain X power" doesn't matter, since by turning his bodies into bombs, he's explicitly not having them contain the power in the body, they're releasing it all. It also coalesces into a single explosion, just like the outer space coalesces into a single space despite there being multiple Gremmy, so that doesn't work as refutation either. Again, check out my thread cuz it goes more in depth there.
• You use the same body =/= The Visonary point to refute Yama's Bankai scaling.
  • Once again, that claim has been debunked, Gremmy's body is just a direct creation of his Visionary. He even concedes that his body dying was because his imagination couldn't handle the power. Gremmy verbatim states that the body point is an excuse it's a lie that he used to cope about his loss, but Gremmy acknowledges himself that it is false cope.
• You imply Gremmy's The Visionary has no limits because he could imagine more clones.
  • That is a textbook no limits fallacy. We know his imagination explicitly has limits, because Gremmy says as much. You cannot claim he could make enough clones to contain Yama's Bankai without proof.
• You claim that because Yhwach never saw Gremmy fight all out, he doesn't know its power.
  • Once again, please check out my linked thread. That's another strawman you're debunking. We aren't even arguing that. The Yhwach argument is that he scales to Bankai Yama and that the narrator in CFYOW states he was stronger than Gremmy, and the narrator would know Gremmy's full power. All of the scans and such are in my linked thread, where I explain it in depth.

Conclusions
I think Gremmy speaks for me when I say that Anyperson misinterpreted the Zaraki Gremmy fight and the accompanying statements. I believe I've thoroughly disproven your claims and pointed out the flaw in your logic. You also strawman for well over half of your post, debunking arguments that we don't use for the 4-A scaling whatsoever (that's why I didn't address your counter points, because they are countering arguments I didn't make). On that basis, I believe this thread should be rejected by the OP's lack of understanding of why the scaling exists in the first place.

I want to conclude this post by saying, absolutely zero disrespect to Anyperson. I actually agree with a lot of your points, I just don't believe they're relevant to the actual accepted scaling. I appreciate everyone's willingness in having healthy discourse and God bless.

I’m also in agreement with these conclusions.

 

[Deceived3596]

I disagree with removing the 4-A rating from Berserker and Warlords, but I do agree with it applying to Archers and Mages, and potentially, even Rogues.

I agree with Arc and his conclusions. I might drop a comment later if anything peaks my interest, but Arc has sufficiently addressed everything I would comment on, so don't count on it happening.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

It's kind of funny, considering Kenpachi’s own body can’t withstand the maximum output of his Bankai being released. Anyway, I agree with Arc.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

It's kind of funny, considering Kenpachi’s own body can’t withstand the maximum output of his Bankai being released. Anyway, I agree with Arc.

It’s kinda cool how that is foreshadowed with Gremmy a bit.

 

[Nierre]

Introductions and Premises
So, I want to highlight what I believe is the first failing of the OP, and that is the premise. "Zaraki is 4-A because he overpowered Gremmy's imagination." That is not why he's 4-A at all, his justification for 4-A can be found here. Because in a vacuum, yes, you are correct when you say that isn't what exactly happened. Now, I know you still disagree with the scaling, but I want to establish out of the gate that 1) your premise is correct and 2) your premise does not defeat the argument I presented for Zaraki scaling.

The Proper Interpretation of Gremmy's Death

Spoiler: What did Gremmy Imagine?

You arrive at the conclusion that the power Gremmy imagined is stronger than Zaraki, and what's implicit there is that Gremmy's imagination > Zaraki. However, that misses a few key details and foreshadowing that the end of the Gremmy fight is setting up.

Here's the dialogue in question that is most significant to refuting your interpretation.

• Gremmy states he is going to imagine himself stronger than Zaraki, doing so causes his body to be ripped apart, and Zaraki states that Gremmy died because he turned Zaraki into a monster and that monster killed him.
  • Gremmy immediately refutes this. He says verbatim "Was I killed by my imagination (as Zaraki implied)? No, not that. That's not right Kenpachi Zaraki. My imagination was correct. And it was more than correct. I correctly imagined all your power. There's just one thing I didn't imagine. That is, only your body can withstand your power. What defeated me was not my imagination, but this body. No, this is just an excuse. I told you, right? I don't even need to use a finger to kill you. My body is all a product of my imagination. As I said, when dealing with you, I indeed didn't use a single finger."
• I'm going to break down each part of Gremmy's dialogue here and explain why it refutes specifically your What actually happened between Zaraki x Gremmy and Gremmy's Body =/= Visionary Power.
• "Was I killed by my imagination (as Zaraki implied)? No, not that. That's not right Kenpachi Zaraki."
  • The "imagination" Gremmy is referring to here is the idea of the "monster" that Zaraki speculates killed Gremmy. We know this to be true, because Gremmy is saying this as a direct response to Zaraki claiming that "monster" killed him. So, no the "monster" did not kill Gremmy as you claim, we are verbatim told that is not true.
• "My imagination was correct. And it was more than correct. I correctly imagined all your power."
  • This here is super important to reconciling a potential contradiction that arises if you don't read into this final dialogue more deeply. As Gremmy states, and CFYOW reiterates, Gremmy imagined a power that outstripped Zaraki. What's important here though is that Gremmy is imagining a power that outstrips EYEPATCH Shikai Zaraki. We know this to be true because Gremmy confirms that he imagined ALL of Zaraki's power, and the eyepatch nerfs Zaraki's power. Meaning, Eyepatch Shikai Zaraki < all of Zaraki's power at the moment = no eyepatch Shikai Zaraki = the power Gremmy imagined. Not only is this interpretation more consistent, it also doesn't pose any contradiction. We know that what Gremmy imagined was verbatim the correct portion of ALL of Zaraki's power, since he emphasizes how correctly he did so THREE times back to back. The "more than correct" part of Gremmy's statement is in reference that he referenced all of Zaraki's power which is more than the power he's using right now due to the eyepatch.
• "There's just one thing I didn't imagine. That is, only your body can withstand your power."
  • This statement here just provides further credence to the notion that Gremmy is referencing Zaraki's no eyepatch Shikai power. Since, Gremmy didn't consider the immense strain Zaraki's power can place on you, likely due to Zaraki not using ALL his power during the fight due to the eyepatch. Otherwise, this statement isn't really important to the debate too much, at its core it's just saying that Zaraki's body is super strong, which is like duh we know Gremmy.
• "What defeated me was not my imagination, but this body. No, this is just an excuse. I told you, right? I don't even need to use a finger to kill you. My body is all a product of my imagination. As I said, when dealing with you, I indeed didn't use a single finger."
  • You claim that Gremmy's "body" doesn't scale to the Visionary, and you use that to try and separate his two 8 Gremmy feats (outer space and the explosion). However, Gremmy disagrees with you, he verbatim states that his body IS his imagination. That is to say, just like how everything else Gremmy uses to fight is a product of The Visionary, so is his body, explicitly so.
  • I'm not going to address the whole "we can't scale 4-A to Gremmy's physicals", because if you read Gremmy's profile, we don't scale it to his physicals lol. So, that entire point is a non-sequitur when it comes to debunking the accepted 4-A scaling.

Your misunderstanding of the accepted scaling

Spoiler: How the scaling actually works

So, you bring up a lot of refutations to strawman arguments. That is to say, you're debunking arguments that aren't even used for the 4-A scaling, and I'll explain why.

• You claim that we use Gremmy accidentally killing himself to scale Zaraki.
  • Read this thread in depth to understand why we scale Zaraki to 4-A. Gremmy dying is not the reason, and rather it's what's logically entailed by the fight sequence and Gremmy's decisions that lead us to that conclusion.
• You make the claim that the explosions being from the bodies exploding debunks it scaling to the outer space.
  • I already refuted this above, there is no meaningful distinction between the body and The Visonary, given it's all a product of The Visionary. Additionally, Gremmy is detonating his imaginary body, so any notion that "his body can't contain X power" doesn't matter, since by turning his bodies into bombs, he's explicitly not having them contain the power in the body, they're releasing it all. It also coalesces into a single explosion, just like the outer space coalesces into a single space despite there being multiple Gremmy, so that doesn't work as refutation either. Again, check out my thread cuz it goes more in depth there.
• You use the same body =/= The Visonary point to refute Yama's Bankai scaling.
  • Once again, that claim has been debunked, Gremmy's body is just a direct creation of his Visionary. He even concedes that his body dying was because his imagination couldn't handle the power. Gremmy verbatim states that the body point is an excuse it's a lie that he used to cope about his loss, but Gremmy acknowledges himself that it is false cope.
• You imply Gremmy's The Visionary has no limits because he could imagine more clones.
  • That is a textbook no limits fallacy. We know his imagination explicitly has limits, because Gremmy says as much. You cannot claim he could make enough clones to contain Yama's Bankai without proof.
• You claim that because Yhwach never saw Gremmy fight all out, he doesn't know its power.
  • Once again, please check out my linked thread. That's another strawman you're debunking. We aren't even arguing that. The Yhwach argument is that he scales to Bankai Yama and that the narrator in CFYOW states he was stronger than Gremmy, and the narrator would know Gremmy's full power. All of the scans and such are in my linked thread, where I explain it in depth.

Conclusions
I think Gremmy speaks for me when I say that Anyperson misinterpreted the Zaraki Gremmy fight and the accompanying statements. I believe I've thoroughly disproven your claims and pointed out the flaw in your logic. You also strawman for well over half of your post, debunking arguments that we don't use for the 4-A scaling whatsoever (that's why I didn't address your counter points, because they are countering arguments I didn't make). On that basis, I believe this thread should be rejected by the OP's lack of understanding of why the scaling exists in the first place.

I want to conclude this post by saying, absolutely zero disrespect to Anyperson. I actually agree with a lot of your points, I just don't believe they're relevant to the actual accepted scaling. I appreciate everyone's willingness in having healthy discourse and God bless.

very good debunk
I disagree with the OP fra

 

[Remus1998]

Introductions and Premises
So, I want to highlight what I believe is the first failing of the OP, and that is the premise. "Zaraki is 4-A because he overpowered Gremmy's imagination." That is not why he's 4-A at all, his justification for 4-A can be found here. Because in a vacuum, yes, you are correct when you say that isn't what exactly happened. Now, I know you still disagree with the scaling, but I want to establish out of the gate that 1) your premise is correct and 2) your premise does not defeat the argument I presented for Zaraki scaling.

The Proper Interpretation of Gremmy's Death

Spoiler: What did Gremmy Imagine?

You arrive at the conclusion that the power Gremmy imagined is stronger than Zaraki, and what's implicit there is that Gremmy's imagination > Zaraki. However, that misses a few key details and foreshadowing that the end of the Gremmy fight is setting up.

Here's the dialogue in question that is most significant to refuting your interpretation.

• Gremmy states he is going to imagine himself stronger than Zaraki, doing so causes his body to be ripped apart, and Zaraki states that Gremmy died because he turned Zaraki into a monster and that monster killed him.
  • Gremmy immediately refutes this. He says verbatim "Was I killed by my imagination (as Zaraki implied)? No, not that. That's not right Kenpachi Zaraki. My imagination was correct. And it was more than correct. I correctly imagined all your power. There's just one thing I didn't imagine. That is, only your body can withstand your power. What defeated me was not my imagination, but this body. No, this is just an excuse. I told you, right? I don't even need to use a finger to kill you. My body is all a product of my imagination. As I said, when dealing with you, I indeed didn't use a single finger."
• I'm going to break down each part of Gremmy's dialogue here and explain why it refutes specifically your What actually happened between Zaraki x Gremmy and Gremmy's Body =/= Visionary Power.
• "Was I killed by my imagination (as Zaraki implied)? No, not that. That's not right Kenpachi Zaraki."
  • The "imagination" Gremmy is referring to here is the idea of the "monster" that Zaraki speculates killed Gremmy. We know this to be true, because Gremmy is saying this as a direct response to Zaraki claiming that "monster" killed him. So, no the "monster" did not kill Gremmy as you claim, we are verbatim told that is not true.
• "My imagination was correct. And it was more than correct. I correctly imagined all your power."
  • This here is super important to reconciling a potential contradiction that arises if you don't read into this final dialogue more deeply. As Gremmy states, and CFYOW reiterates, Gremmy imagined a power that outstripped Zaraki. What's important here though is that Gremmy is imagining a power that outstrips EYEPATCH Shikai Zaraki. We know this to be true because Gremmy confirms that he imagined ALL of Zaraki's power, and the eyepatch nerfs Zaraki's power. Meaning, Eyepatch Shikai Zaraki < all of Zaraki's power at the moment = no eyepatch Shikai Zaraki = the power Gremmy imagined. Not only is this interpretation more consistent, it also doesn't pose any contradiction. We know that what Gremmy imagined was verbatim the correct portion of ALL of Zaraki's power, since he emphasizes how correctly he did so THREE times back to back. The "more than correct" part of Gremmy's statement is in reference that he referenced all of Zaraki's power which is more than the power he's using right now due to the eyepatch.
• "There's just one thing I didn't imagine. That is, only your body can withstand your power."
  • This statement here just provides further credence to the notion that Gremmy is referencing Zaraki's no eyepatch Shikai power. Since, Gremmy didn't consider the immense strain Zaraki's power can place on you, likely due to Zaraki not using ALL his power during the fight due to the eyepatch. Otherwise, this statement isn't really important to the debate too much, at its core it's just saying that Zaraki's body is super strong, which is like duh we know Gremmy.
• "What defeated me was not my imagination, but this body. No, this is just an excuse. I told you, right? I don't even need to use a finger to kill you. My body is all a product of my imagination. As I said, when dealing with you, I indeed didn't use a single finger."
  • You claim that Gremmy's "body" doesn't scale to the Visionary, and you use that to try and separate his two 8 Gremmy feats (outer space and the explosion). However, Gremmy disagrees with you, he verbatim states that his body IS his imagination. That is to say, just like how everything else Gremmy uses to fight is a product of The Visionary, so is his body, explicitly so.
  • I'm not going to address the whole "we can't scale 4-A to Gremmy's physicals", because if you read Gremmy's profile, we don't scale it to his physicals lol. So, that entire point is a non-sequitur when it comes to debunking the accepted 4-A scaling.

Your misunderstanding of the accepted scaling

Spoiler: How the scaling actually works

So, you bring up a lot of refutations to strawman arguments. That is to say, you're debunking arguments that aren't even used for the 4-A scaling, and I'll explain why.

• You claim that we use Gremmy accidentally killing himself to scale Zaraki.
  • Read this thread in depth to understand why we scale Zaraki to 4-A. Gremmy dying is not the reason, and rather it's what's logically entailed by the fight sequence and Gremmy's decisions that lead us to that conclusion.
• You make the claim that the explosions being from the bodies exploding debunks it scaling to the outer space.
  • I already refuted this above, there is no meaningful distinction between the body and The Visonary, given it's all a product of The Visionary. Additionally, Gremmy is detonating his imaginary body, so any notion that "his body can't contain X power" doesn't matter, since by turning his bodies into bombs, he's explicitly not having them contain the power in the body, they're releasing it all. It also coalesces into a single explosion, just like the outer space coalesces into a single space despite there being multiple Gremmy, so that doesn't work as refutation either. Again, check out my thread cuz it goes more in depth there.
• You use the same body =/= The Visonary point to refute Yama's Bankai scaling.
  • Once again, that claim has been debunked, Gremmy's body is just a direct creation of his Visionary. He even concedes that his body dying was because his imagination couldn't handle the power. Gremmy verbatim states that the body point is an excuse it's a lie that he used to cope about his loss, but Gremmy acknowledges himself that it is false cope.
• You imply Gremmy's The Visionary has no limits because he could imagine more clones.
  • That is a textbook no limits fallacy. We know his imagination explicitly has limits, because Gremmy says as much. You cannot claim he could make enough clones to contain Yama's Bankai without proof.
• You claim that because Yhwach never saw Gremmy fight all out, he doesn't know its power.
  • Once again, please check out my linked thread. That's another strawman you're debunking. We aren't even arguing that. The Yhwach argument is that he scales to Bankai Yama and that the narrator in CFYOW states he was stronger than Gremmy, and the narrator would know Gremmy's full power. All of the scans and such are in my linked thread, where I explain it in depth.

Conclusions
I think Gremmy speaks for me when I say that Anyperson misinterpreted the Zaraki Gremmy fight and the accompanying statements. I believe I've thoroughly disproven your claims and pointed out the flaw in your logic. You also strawman for well over half of your post, debunking arguments that we don't use for the 4-A scaling whatsoever (that's why I didn't address your counter points, because they are countering arguments I didn't make). On that basis, I believe this thread should be rejected by the OP's lack of understanding of why the scaling exists in the first place.

I want to conclude this post by saying, absolutely zero disrespect to Anyperson. I actually agree with a lot of your points, I just don't believe they're relevant to the actual accepted scaling. I appreciate everyone's willingness in having healthy discourse and God bless.

I agree with this

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I agree with this

Thank you Remus1988.

 

[KingTempest]

Introductions and Premises
So, I want to highlight what I believe is the first failing of the OP, and that is the premise. "Zaraki is 4-A because he overpowered Gremmy's imagination." That is not why he's 4-A at all, his justification for 4-A can be found here. Because in a vacuum, yes, you are correct when you say that isn't what exactly happened. Now, I know you still disagree with the scaling, but I want to establish out of the gate that 1) your premise is correct and 2) your premise does not defeat the argument I presented for Zaraki scaling.

The Proper Interpretation of Gremmy's Death

Spoiler: What did Gremmy Imagine?

You arrive at the conclusion that the power Gremmy imagined is stronger than Zaraki, and what's implicit there is that Gremmy's imagination > Zaraki. However, that misses a few key details and foreshadowing that the end of the Gremmy fight is setting up.

Here's the dialogue in question that is most significant to refuting your interpretation.

• Gremmy states he is going to imagine himself stronger than Zaraki, doing so causes his body to be ripped apart, and Zaraki states that Gremmy died because he turned Zaraki into a monster and that monster killed him.
  • Gremmy immediately refutes this. He says verbatim "Was I killed by my imagination (as Zaraki implied)? No, not that. That's not right Kenpachi Zaraki. My imagination was correct. And it was more than correct. I correctly imagined all your power. There's just one thing I didn't imagine. That is, only your body can withstand your power. What defeated me was not my imagination, but this body. No, this is just an excuse. I told you, right? I don't even need to use a finger to kill you. My body is all a product of my imagination. As I said, when dealing with you, I indeed didn't use a single finger."
• I'm going to break down each part of Gremmy's dialogue here and explain why it refutes specifically your What actually happened between Zaraki x Gremmy and Gremmy's Body =/= Visionary Power.
• "Was I killed by my imagination (as Zaraki implied)? No, not that. That's not right Kenpachi Zaraki."
  • The "imagination" Gremmy is referring to here is the idea of the "monster" that Zaraki speculates killed Gremmy. We know this to be true, because Gremmy is saying this as a direct response to Zaraki claiming that "monster" killed him. So, no the "monster" did not kill Gremmy as you claim, we are verbatim told that is not true.
• "My imagination was correct. And it was more than correct. I correctly imagined all your power."
  • This here is super important to reconciling a potential contradiction that arises if you don't read into this final dialogue more deeply. As Gremmy states, and CFYOW reiterates, Gremmy imagined a power that outstripped Zaraki. What's important here though is that Gremmy is imagining a power that outstrips EYEPATCH Shikai Zaraki. We know this to be true because Gremmy confirms that he imagined ALL of Zaraki's power, and the eyepatch nerfs Zaraki's power. Meaning, Eyepatch Shikai Zaraki < all of Zaraki's power at the moment = no eyepatch Shikai Zaraki = the power Gremmy imagined. Not only is this interpretation more consistent, it also doesn't pose any contradiction. We know that what Gremmy imagined was verbatim the correct portion of ALL of Zaraki's power, since he emphasizes how correctly he did so THREE times back to back. The "more than correct" part of Gremmy's statement is in reference that he referenced all of Zaraki's power which is more than the power he's using right now due to the eyepatch.
• "There's just one thing I didn't imagine. That is, only your body can withstand your power."
  • This statement here just provides further credence to the notion that Gremmy is referencing Zaraki's no eyepatch Shikai power. Since, Gremmy didn't consider the immense strain Zaraki's power can place on you, likely due to Zaraki not using ALL his power during the fight due to the eyepatch. Otherwise, this statement isn't really important to the debate too much, at its core it's just saying that Zaraki's body is super strong, which is like duh we know Gremmy.
• "What defeated me was not my imagination, but this body. No, this is just an excuse. I told you, right? I don't even need to use a finger to kill you. My body is all a product of my imagination. As I said, when dealing with you, I indeed didn't use a single finger."
  • You claim that Gremmy's "body" doesn't scale to the Visionary, and you use that to try and separate his two 8 Gremmy feats (outer space and the explosion). However, Gremmy disagrees with you, he verbatim states that his body IS his imagination. That is to say, just like how everything else Gremmy uses to fight is a product of The Visionary, so is his body, explicitly so.
  • I'm not going to address the whole "we can't scale 4-A to Gremmy's physicals", because if you read Gremmy's profile, we don't scale it to his physicals lol. So, that entire point is a non-sequitur when it comes to debunking the accepted 4-A scaling.

Your misunderstanding of the accepted scaling

Spoiler: How the scaling actually works

So, you bring up a lot of refutations to strawman arguments. That is to say, you're debunking arguments that aren't even used for the 4-A scaling, and I'll explain why.

• You claim that we use Gremmy accidentally killing himself to scale Zaraki.
  • Read this thread in depth to understand why we scale Zaraki to 4-A. Gremmy dying is not the reason, and rather it's what's logically entailed by the fight sequence and Gremmy's decisions that lead us to that conclusion.
• You make the claim that the explosions being from the bodies exploding debunks it scaling to the outer space.
  • I already refuted this above, there is no meaningful distinction between the body and The Visonary, given it's all a product of The Visionary. Additionally, Gremmy is detonating his imaginary body, so any notion that "his body can't contain X power" doesn't matter, since by turning his bodies into bombs, he's explicitly not having them contain the power in the body, they're releasing it all. It also coalesces into a single explosion, just like the outer space coalesces into a single space despite there being multiple Gremmy, so that doesn't work as refutation either. Again, check out my thread cuz it goes more in depth there.
• You use the same body =/= The Visonary point to refute Yama's Bankai scaling.
  • Once again, that claim has been debunked, Gremmy's body is just a direct creation of his Visionary. He even concedes that his body dying was because his imagination couldn't handle the power. Gremmy verbatim states that the body point is an excuse it's a lie that he used to cope about his loss, but Gremmy acknowledges himself that it is false cope.
• You imply Gremmy's The Visionary has no limits because he could imagine more clones.
  • That is a textbook no limits fallacy. We know his imagination explicitly has limits, because Gremmy says as much. You cannot claim he could make enough clones to contain Yama's Bankai without proof.
• You claim that because Yhwach never saw Gremmy fight all out, he doesn't know its power.
  • Once again, please check out my linked thread. That's another strawman you're debunking. We aren't even arguing that. The Yhwach argument is that he scales to Bankai Yama and that the narrator in CFYOW states he was stronger than Gremmy, and the narrator would know Gremmy's full power. All of the scans and such are in my linked thread, where I explain it in depth.

Conclusions
I think Gremmy speaks for me when I say that Anyperson misinterpreted the Zaraki Gremmy fight and the accompanying statements. I believe I've thoroughly disproven your claims and pointed out the flaw in your logic. You also strawman for well over half of your post, debunking arguments that we don't use for the 4-A scaling whatsoever (that's why I didn't address your counter points, because they are countering arguments I didn't make). On that basis, I believe this thread should be rejected by the OP's lack of understanding of why the scaling exists in the first place.

I want to conclude this post by saying, absolutely zero disrespect to Anyperson. I actually agree with a lot of your points, I just don't believe they're relevant to the actual accepted scaling. I appreciate everyone's willingness in having healthy discourse and God bless.

Makes sense

 

[Anypersonburnimagines]

Introductions and Premises
So, I want to highlight what I believe is the first failing of the OP, and that is the premise. "Zaraki is 4-A because he overpowered Gremmy's imagination." That is not why he's 4-A at all, his justification for 4-A can be found here. Because in a vacuum, yes, you are correct when you say that isn't what exactly happened. Now, I know you still disagree with the scaling, but I want to establish out of the gate that 1) your premise is correct and 2) your premise does not defeat the argument I presented for Zaraki scaling.

The Proper Interpretation of Gremmy's Death

Spoiler: What did Gremmy Imagine?

You arrive at the conclusion that the power Gremmy imagined is stronger than Zaraki, and what's implicit there is that Gremmy's imagination > Zaraki. However, that misses a few key details and foreshadowing that the end of the Gremmy fight is setting up.

Here's the dialogue in question that is most significant to refuting your interpretation.

• Gremmy states he is going to imagine himself stronger than Zaraki, doing so causes his body to be ripped apart, and Zaraki states that Gremmy died because he turned Zaraki into a monster and that monster killed him.
  • Gremmy immediately refutes this. He says verbatim "Was I killed by my imagination (as Zaraki implied)? No, not that. That's not right Kenpachi Zaraki. My imagination was correct. And it was more than correct. I correctly imagined all your power. There's just one thing I didn't imagine. That is, only your body can withstand your power. What defeated me was not my imagination, but this body. No, this is just an excuse. I told you, right? I don't even need to use a finger to kill you. My body is all a product of my imagination. As I said, when dealing with you, I indeed didn't use a single finger."
• I'm going to break down each part of Gremmy's dialogue here and explain why it refutes specifically your What actually happened between Zaraki x Gremmy and Gremmy's Body =/= Visionary Power.
• "Was I killed by my imagination (as Zaraki implied)? No, not that. That's not right Kenpachi Zaraki."
  • The "imagination" Gremmy is referring to here is the idea of the "monster" that Zaraki speculates killed Gremmy. We know this to be true, because Gremmy is saying this as a direct response to Zaraki claiming that "monster" killed him. So, no the "monster" did not kill Gremmy as you claim, we are verbatim told that is not true.
• "My imagination was correct. And it was more than correct. I correctly imagined all your power."
  • This here is super important to reconciling a potential contradiction that arises if you don't read into this final dialogue more deeply. As Gremmy states, and CFYOW reiterates, Gremmy imagined a power that outstripped Zaraki. What's important here though is that Gremmy is imagining a power that outstrips EYEPATCH Shikai Zaraki. We know this to be true because Gremmy confirms that he imagined ALL of Zaraki's power, and the eyepatch nerfs Zaraki's power. Meaning, Eyepatch Shikai Zaraki < all of Zaraki's power at the moment = no eyepatch Shikai Zaraki = the power Gremmy imagined. Not only is this interpretation more consistent, it also doesn't pose any contradiction. We know that what Gremmy imagined was verbatim the correct portion of ALL of Zaraki's power, since he emphasizes how correctly he did so THREE times back to back. The "more than correct" part of Gremmy's statement is in reference that he referenced all of Zaraki's power which is more than the power he's using right now due to the eyepatch.
• "There's just one thing I didn't imagine. That is, only your body can withstand your power."
  • This statement here just provides further credence to the notion that Gremmy is referencing Zaraki's no eyepatch Shikai power. Since, Gremmy didn't consider the immense strain Zaraki's power can place on you, likely due to Zaraki not using ALL his power during the fight due to the eyepatch. Otherwise, this statement isn't really important to the debate too much, at its core it's just saying that Zaraki's body is super strong, which is like duh we know Gremmy.
• "What defeated me was not my imagination, but this body. No, this is just an excuse. I told you, right? I don't even need to use a finger to kill you. My body is all a product of my imagination. As I said, when dealing with you, I indeed didn't use a single finger."
  • You claim that Gremmy's "body" doesn't scale to the Visionary, and you use that to try and separate his two 8 Gremmy feats (outer space and the explosion). However, Gremmy disagrees with you, he verbatim states that his body IS his imagination. That is to say, just like how everything else Gremmy uses to fight is a product of The Visionary, so is his body, explicitly so.
  • I'm not going to address the whole "we can't scale 4-A to Gremmy's physicals", because if you read Gremmy's profile, we don't scale it to his physicals lol. So, that entire point is a non-sequitur when it comes to debunking the accepted 4-A scaling.

Your misunderstanding of the accepted scaling

Spoiler: How the scaling actually works

So, you bring up a lot of refutations to strawman arguments. That is to say, you're debunking arguments that aren't even used for the 4-A scaling, and I'll explain why.

• You claim that we use Gremmy accidentally killing himself to scale Zaraki.
  • Read this thread in depth to understand why we scale Zaraki to 4-A. Gremmy dying is not the reason, and rather it's what's logically entailed by the fight sequence and Gremmy's decisions that lead us to that conclusion.
• You make the claim that the explosions being from the bodies exploding debunks it scaling to the outer space.
  • I already refuted this above, there is no meaningful distinction between the body and The Visonary, given it's all a product of The Visionary. Additionally, Gremmy is detonating his imaginary body, so any notion that "his body can't contain X power" doesn't matter, since by turning his bodies into bombs, he's explicitly not having them contain the power in the body, they're releasing it all. It also coalesces into a single explosion, just like the outer space coalesces into a single space despite there being multiple Gremmy, so that doesn't work as refutation either. Again, check out my thread cuz it goes more in depth there.
• You use the same body =/= The Visonary point to refute Yama's Bankai scaling.
  • Once again, that claim has been debunked, Gremmy's body is just a direct creation of his Visionary. He even concedes that his body dying was because his imagination couldn't handle the power. Gremmy verbatim states that the body point is an excuse it's a lie that he used to cope about his loss, but Gremmy acknowledges himself that it is false cope.
• You imply Gremmy's The Visionary has no limits because he could imagine more clones.
  • That is a textbook no limits fallacy. We know his imagination explicitly has limits, because Gremmy says as much. You cannot claim he could make enough clones to contain Yama's Bankai without proof.
• You claim that because Yhwach never saw Gremmy fight all out, he doesn't know its power.
  • Once again, please check out my linked thread. That's another strawman you're debunking. We aren't even arguing that. The Yhwach argument is that he scales to Bankai Yama and that the narrator in CFYOW states he was stronger than Gremmy, and the narrator would know Gremmy's full power. All of the scans and such are in my linked thread, where I explain it in depth.

Conclusions
I think Gremmy speaks for me when I say that Anyperson misinterpreted the Zaraki Gremmy fight and the accompanying statements. I believe I've thoroughly disproven your claims and pointed out the flaw in your logic. You also strawman for well over half of your post, debunking arguments that we don't use for the 4-A scaling whatsoever (that's why I didn't address your counter points, because they are countering arguments I didn't make). On that basis, I believe this thread should be rejected by the OP's lack of understanding of why the scaling exists in the first place.

I want to conclude this post by saying, absolutely zero disrespect to Anyperson. I actually agree with a lot of your points, I just don't believe they're relevant to the actual accepted scaling. I appreciate everyone's willingness in having healthy discourse and God bless.

That’s fair! I think I ended up focusing only on countering the arguments presented in this CRT, while leaving other points aside.

That said, I’ll be shifting my arguments to address some of the scaling claims made in a different CRT. This one can be closed.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

That’s fair! I think I ended up focusing only on countering the arguments presented in this CRT, while leaving other points aside.

That said, I’ll be shifting my arguments to address some of the scaling claims made in a different CRT. This one can be closed.

You can just address them in this CRT. Lowkey kinda a hassle to open up like a bajillion Gremmy CRTs, but also you do you.

Edit: especially if you plan on addressing anything of what I brought up here in my above post, you should just address it here

 

[Jo-Smooth]

A very oversimplified scale is

Eyepatch Zaraki > Gremmy Clones self destruction (which did begin to push the Visionary's limits) >= Galaxy Room = 4-A, the rest was more so supporting evidence as mentioned by a few people already

 

[Anypersonburnimagines]

You can just address them in this CRT. Lowkey kinda a hassle to open up like a bajillion Gremmy CRTs, but also you do you.

Edit: especially if you plan on addressing anything of what I brought up here in my above post, you should just address it here

I'm not sure. It might take me some time to reorganize my arguments, I'm not sure. That’s why I’d rather not link my new arguments to this CRT that tackled points from another CRT.

I think it might be better to open a separate CRT specifically to address some of the scaling arguments presented here that I find inaccurate. It’s more of an organization thing.

 

[Nierre]

ill close this then.