BAN-KAI! Bleach General Discussion

[Arc7Kuroi]

It's goofy, I'll be making a thread to address it.

 

[zylieo]

A VSBW Bleach fan's favorite word is "Arc"

 

[AnAverageUsername]

I have a very sneaking suspicion that Ant's view of the world is black and white

 

[Deceived3596]

Ant is a Swedish Viking Warrior fighting against the Fascistic temperaments of Bleach fans.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Ant is a Swedish Viking Warrior fighting against the Fascistic temperaments of Bleach fans.

Ah, to live in the north, enjoying the lifestyle of battle and farming

 

[KingogKings777]

I very much disapprove of the fascist or even Nazi values, combined with anti-western Christophobia, that Tite Kubo has promoted in his Bleach work in general.

 

[KingogKings777]

Why is Yhwach labeled as evil? Isn't he a good guy trying to rebel against an unjust system and to free man from the fear of death?

 

[Arcker123]

He commits genocide multiple times on his own children

 

[LordTracer]

He commits genocide multiple times on his own children

Kids need disciplining

 

[Bastolan27]

He commits genocide multiple times on his own children

If you think about it, no one in Bleach is 100% good except for Orihime and some other characters I'm probably forgetting. Yhwach is the lesser evil when contrasted with the Soul Society.

 

[Arcker123]

Yall mfs are not reading Bleach. Kubo exposits exactly why Yhwach is wrong.

He's not a lesser evil, he's committed every crime the soul society has, he just has a more self righteous goal.

 

[Aernasilver]

Damn imagine if Ant knew what Yama did in the past. He'll have a heart attack.

 

[Bastolan27]

Saying "lesser evil" inherently implies that he is both evil and wrong.

The Soul Society has committed more crimes and more often than Yhwach.

His belief in himself being right and morally correct implies that he is less evil than the Soul Society, which knows it is wrong yet continues to commit the crimes.

Remember that the representation of evilness in the Soul Society's upper class is literally Tokinada, who is the most evil dude in the series so far.

Therefore, asserting that Yhwach is less evil than the Soul Society is a valid interpretation. Considering how Kubo doesn't shy away from depicting the Soul Society's evil actions and provides 'justifications' for main antagonists who oppose it, it's likely that he agrees with this perspective.

 

[Arcker123]

You're argument is that Yhwach believes that he's right, and the soul society doesn't therefore Yhwach is less evil, but I just said that all that amounts to is simply Yhwach being more self righteous, as i said.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Does Ant know that Kubo donated 10 20 million yen to Earthquake relief earlier this month

 

[Spectra_Schiffer]

ngl yhwach is a murderous asshole
And actually, characters like Ulq/Starrk/Harribel/Nelliel in Bleach are more innocent than most Shinigami, in my opinion
And of course Aizen is the most innocent character in the universe

 

[Bastolan27]

It was one of my points, not my whole argument. but yeah Yhwach's self-righteousness makes him less evil than the Soul Society. Think of it like a soldier believing they are serving a righteous cause and committing atrocities, even if the cause is not truly righteous, being considered less evil than a soldier who knows they're doing something wrong but keeps doing it anyway. Morality and evilness can be measured in various ways, two of which are the action itself and the intent/reason behind it. Yhwach genuinely believed that his goal was the best for humanity. He initially pursued this goal for both self-preservation and empathy/compassion for the living, which he acquired through absorbing the memories of countless people who feared death.

 

[Hxskyy2005]

in short, the idea of yhwach wasn't bad. however he could have avoided it but I personally wouldn't consider him a bad guy

 

[Arcker123]

It was one of my points, not my whole argument. but yeah Yhwach's self-righteousness makes him less evil than the Soul Society. Think of it like a soldier believing they are serving a righteous cause and committing atrocities, even if the cause is not truly righteous, being considered less evil than a soldier who knows they're doing something wrong but keeps doing it anyway. Morality and evilness can be measured in various ways, two of which are the action itself and the intent/reason behind it. Yhwach genuinely believed that his goal was the best for humanity. He initially pursued this goal for both self-preservation and empathy/compassion for the living, which he acquired through absorbing the memories of countless people who feared death.

This just doesn't matter when considering the crimes Yhwach commits.

Every genocidal asshole does it self righteous reasons, it doesn't make them better than people who have those same reasons, but are less pretentious about it like Seireitei. Yhwachs motivations aren't convincing reasons as to why he's somehow a lesser evil.

 

[Bastolan27]

in short, the idea of yhwach wasn't bad. however he could have avoided it but I personally wouldn't consider him a bad guy

Nah, he's still evil, but not as much as the Soul Society.

 

[Bastolan27]

This just doesn't matter when considering the crimes Yhwach commits.

Every genocidal asshole does it self righteous reasons, it doesn't make them better than people who have those same reasons, but are less pretentious about it like Seireitei. Yhwachs motivations aren't convincing reasons as to why he's somehow a lesser evil.

Which genocide are you talking about? As far as I remember, the only thing he did that can be considered genocide and not just mass murder is the invasion of Soul Society. If it's the invasion of Soul Society, it is still less evil than all the other genocides the Soul Society committed, as it has the explanation of both being a war and revenge, unlike most of the Soul Society genocides, which are unjustifiable. Although the Quincy genocide by the Soul Society has a "justification" it's a very flimsy one. So, in that case, Yhwach would still be the lesser EVIL.


Disclaimer: I'm not saying that the invasion of Soul Society is right; I'm just pointing out that it at least has an explanation, which to some might be plausible. This is in contrast to the Soul Society's decisions like "let's kill all Mod Souls just because," "let's kill Fullbringers so we can get the Reio fragments," "instead of exploring 100 other options, let's just kill the Quincy because they don't want to stop killing their natural enemies, which are poisonous to them," and "let's not even agree to the Soken's proposal since it's better to let the Quincy die." Even in filler episodes, they commit genocides for no reason.

 

[Arcker123]

Which genocide are you talking about? As far as I remember, the only thing he did that can be considered genocide and not just mass murder is the invasion of Soul Society. If it's the invasion of Soul Society, it is still less evil than all the other genocides the Soul Society committed, as it has the explanation of both being a war and revenge, unlike most of the Soul Society genocides, which are unjustifiable. Although the Quincy genocide by the Soul Society has a "justification" it's a very flimsy one. So, in that case, Yhwach would still be the lesser EVIL.


Disclaimer: I'm not saying that the invasion of Soul Society is right; I'm just pointing out that it at least has an explanation, which to some might be plausible. This is in contrast to the Soul Society's decisions like "let's kill all Mod Souls just because," "let's kill Fullbringers so we can get the Reio fragments," "instead of exploring 100 other options, let's just kill the Quincy because they don't want to stop killing their natural enemies, which are poisonous to them," and "let's not even agree to the Soken's proposal since it's better to let the Quincy die." Even in filler episodes, they commit genocides for no reason.

The Auschwalen

 

[AnAverageUsername]

I will say I'd rather work under the Gotei 13 rather than Yhwach any day of the week.

 

[SlendVeny]

The Auschwalen

That totally doesn't sound similar to any notable part of literally the most famous genocide.

 

[Bastolan27]

The Auschwalen

Unfortunately, that doesn't fall under genocide according to Oxford; only mass murder.

Yhwach didn't kill the Quincy just because, and he didn't do it with the goal of exterminating them; he did it to regain his power. Also, he didn't kill them because they are Quincy, but because it was the way to regain his power. So it fails to meet the criteria of the definition.

 

[SlendVeny]

I have in fact read half of the Bleach series, and Zaraki is per definition far too amoral and bloodthirsty to qualify as a genuinely good character with very high degrees of empathy, conscience, compassion, and moral conduct. Even an average human does not qualify as good, just neutral, and Zaraki's past deeds of thrill-killing slaughter makes him considerably worse than an average human.

Zaraki's "past deeds of thrill killing" were when he was a literal child being hunted down by ghost cops.

 

[Nierre]

Unfortunately, that doesn't fall under genocide according to Oxford; only mass murder.

 

[SlendVeny]

Unfortunately, that doesn't fall under genocide according to Oxford; only mass murder.

Yhwach didn't kill the Quincy just because, and he didn't do it with the goal of exterminating them; he did it to regain his power. Also, he didn't kill them because they are Quincy, but because it was the way to regain his power. So it fails to meet the criteria of the definition.

He literally did it because they were Quincy, since the Quincy were the ones with his power in them.

 

[Arcker123]

The auschwalen was an ethnic cleansing in which Quincy who weren't pure enough were systematically murdered. If that isn't a genocide then who tf knows dude.

Edit: This argument is so ******* pedantic. Anyone who'd here the description of the auschwalen would call it genocide.

 

[Bastolan27]

We go back to this

It was one of my points, not my whole argument. but yeah Yhwach's self-righteousness makes him less evil than the Soul Society. Think of it like a soldier believing they are serving a righteous cause and committing atrocities, even if the cause is not truly righteous, being considered less evil than a soldier who knows they're doing something wrong but keeps doing it anyway. Morality and evilness can be measured in various ways, two of which are the action itself and the intent/reason behind it. Yhwach genuinely believed that his goal was the best for humanity. He initially pursued this goal for both self-preservation and empathy/compassion for the living, which he acquired through absorbing the memories of countless people who feared death.

The action is equally evil, but the intent is not as malicious as killing them out of hatred or something similar.

 

[SlendVeny]

Unfortunately, that doesn't fall under genocide according to Oxford; only mass murder.

"The deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular race or nation."

 

[LordTracer]

Unfortunately, that doesn't fall under genocide according to Oxford; only mass murder.

This is one of the most looking ass statements I’ve ever seen

 

[Westcoast5005]

ironically most arrancars seem better than the soul reapers and Quincy.

 

[Bastolan27]

The auschwalen was an ethnic cleansing in which Quincy who weren't pure enough were systematically murdered. If that isn't a genocide then who tf knows dude.

He literally did it because they were Quincy, since the Quincy were the ones with his power in them.

But it was not a hate crime, and he didn't kill them because he wanted to exterminate a group of people; he did it to regain his power.

The auschwalen was an ethnic cleansing in which Quincy who weren't pure enough were systematically murdered. If that isn't a genocide then who tf knows dude.

"The deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular race or nation."

the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.

was an ethnic cleansing in which Quincy who weren't pure enough were systematically murdered.

The intent was not to kill them just because they were 'impure' but because 'pure' Quincy are a rarity that could not be disposed of, so they were the alternative. (It was not a hate crime.)

His motivation was not to destroy the Quincy; therefore, it's not genocide.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

But it was not a hate crime, and he didn't kill them because he wanted to exterminate a group of people; he did it to regain his power.

 

[Westcoast5005]

But it was not a hate crime, and he didn't kill them because he wanted to exterminate a group of people; he did it to regain his power.






The intent was not to kill them just because they were 'impure' but because 'pure' Quincy are a rarity that could not be disposed of, so they were the alternative. (It was not a hate crime.)

His motivation was not to destroy the Quincy; therefore, it's not genocide.

Yhwach ideals towards the Quincy was based on hitlers ideology that’s one of the reason for the Germanic theme the wandereich have. It pretty safe too bet that it was genocide

 

[Bastolan27]

This is one of the most looking ass statements I’ve ever seen

The distinction matters in our judicial system and public perception, It also matters a lot depending on how someone measures evil; therefore, it's an important differentiation.

 

[Arcker123]

But it was not a hate crime, and he didn't kill them because he wanted to exterminate a group of people; he did it to regain his power.






The intent was not to kill them just because they were 'impure' but because 'pure' Quincy are a rarity that could not be disposed of, so they were the alternative. (It was not a hate crime.)

His motivation was not to destroy the Quincy; therefore, it's not genocide.

Dude do you not think racial purity is a motive that qualifies under hate crime?

Nobody cares about the idea of destroying a race entirely when talking about genocide. Yhwach is trying to destroy a very specific type of Quincy, which would still be a genocide when understood by everyone. You can commit genocide on a sect of a larger race for example without intending to destroy the entire larger race. You're just misunderstanding the definition.

 

[Bastolan27]

Yhwach ideals towards the Quincy was based on hitlers ideology that’s one of the reason for the Germanic theme the wandereich have. It pretty safe too bet that it was genocide

That's never confirmed. The manga implies they fell into eugenics due to the rarity of pure Quincy post-genocide. The only ideology you can attribute to Yhwach is the 'unnecessary Quincy' one, which is not based on eugenics but on usefulness for himself.

 

[Bastolan27]

Dude do you not think racial purity is a motive that qualifies under hate crime?

Yes

Nobody cares about the idea of destroying a race entirely when talking about genocide. Yhwach is trying to destroy a very specific type of Quincy, which would still be a genocide when understood by everyone. You can commit genocide on a sect of a larger race for example without intending to destroy the entire larger race. You're just misunderstanding the definition.

No, the distinction is on intent, as I've said multiple times. He didn't want to destroy a very specific type of Quincy; he wanted to regain his power. Since the specific group of Quincy was less useful to him, due to the whole power dilution thing (which is showcased in Blut), it shows that it was not due to 'hate.' This is further emphasized when he used Auswählen on all of Quincy. It implies he never did it because of racial superiority but due to a utilitarian approach, which in this case would not be classified as a hate crime.

And since his goal was not "destroying that nation or group" but gaining power through Quincy, which he deemed as less useful, and it has nothing to do with ethics, then it would not be genocide.