Baki Scaling Revision Thread

[BakiHanma18]

Except that most of this doesn't work in literally every other verse. Why are we creating this vacuum of standards that only apply to Grappler Baki?

In any other verse, drawing blood is enough to scale. Frisk did less than a fraction of damage to Flowey but scales. Iron Man's best efforts only drew a drop of blood out of Thanos and yet he still scales.

This isn't even addressing the clear breaking of the laws of physics. If Musashi had 7-C AP and 8-B dura, he would have shattered his arms trying to swing his swords. This isn't some fantasy or sci-fi verse where one can have a separate AP through a stronger weapon or magic. This is a verse that's about as grounded in reality as it gets in terms of setting.

Katsumi, maybe I get. But characters like Retsu and Ron absolutely should scale higher. I get that maybe Oliva has higher dura with his muscles flexed. Ok. But there's this one crucial concept you're forgetting: you can stomp someone else in the same tier as you. Hell, Retsu could block Pickle's blows after his instinctive reactions kicked in. Xiao Lee did jack to stop Musashi's blows so he was taking in the full force of his attacks.

Regardless. Pointless back and forth won't get us anywhere. I'll post the scans of everything I've mentioned above and let the people decide.

I won’t debate the points made, as I’d like to respect the point about the pointless back and forth, but I would like to note that, for the calcs and scaling we do have for the 9-As and High 8-Cs, it’s not that these characters don’t have these 7-C scaling showings, it’s just that it’s inconsistent in both their other showings and their portrayal in the manga. I think we can all agree that having Prison Inmate Baki scale to Oliva for drawing blood would be a nightmare for scaling and inconsistencies, but we just consider it an outlier. Also, it’s not like anyone wants Baki to be given special treatment or be made an exception (I would think more 7-Cs or more high tiers would be better for debates anyway), it’s just that Itagaki’s portrayal of a character’s strength is very wonky when using this site’s rules. A very concretely 9-A Baki drew blood from 7-C Oliva, a pretty concretely Chiharu bloodied 7-C Baki’s nose, 9-A Muhammad Ali knocked Low 7-C Baki over, etc. Itagaki does things like “casual durability” and “anyone can technically hurt anyone”, even when Yujiro or Hanayama, after receiving a bruise or bruises to the face, oneshots their opponents.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Ok yeah, a consistently shown 9-A drawing blood from a 7-C is outlier. But a character introduced for literally one fight with no context besides fighting a 7-C, should be 7-C.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Ok yeah, a consistently shown 9-A drawing blood from a 7-C is outlier. But a character introduced for literally one fight with no context besides fighting a 7-C, should be 7-C.

If we’re talking Ron, I think Amlad did a good job of outlining my thoughts on that, but we’d be getting into the back and forth territory, so I will respectfully disagree and await the scans to discuss

 

[Qawsedf234]

If there's no one here who actually knows why we have those tiers I'm gonna treat it like they came from nowhere until the other people actually tell why

From my stuff with the CRTs, the High 8-C was from the lightning bolt since Ogre was utterly unharmed by it and people can inflict more damage than it could.

Low 7-C is the Earthquake wasn't it? Then upgraded 2x or 3x by the Demonback to 7-C. Unless I'm forgetting a Earthquake upgrade CRT.

 

[Antvasima]

I have to unsubscribe from this thread due to time constraints. You can notify me later via my message wall if you need my help after you have reached a conclusion. Alternately, a staff member can use the @Username notification system.

 

[Amlad22]

I already explained the tiers but that might have been missed in my colossal comment.

The lightning bolt calc is flawed and won’t be used anymore. It’s most likely just gonna get downgraded to 8-C which is the power of a lightning bolt unless we can find a way to accurately calc the feat.

8-B comes from the smaller earthquake Calc.

7-C comes from the big boi earthquake calc.

Low 7-C is backscaling from the earthquake calc using demon back multipliers.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Yeah, the 8-B earthquake was caused by one of Baki’s imaginary Yujiro’s in base form (so a base form Yujiro that’s weaker than the real thing) and the 7-C earthquake is the one that the real Yujiro stopped in base during the Child arc of Grappler Baki

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Not entirely sure what the problem is here but to clear up any confusion.

https://********.org/chapter/202805/1
If Musashi was a glass cannon like people say he is, he would've died right here. That's just that.

https://********.org/chapter/201730/1

Retsu made Pickle bleed if only a little.

Musashi just is not a glass cannon under any circumstances without deliberately ignoring multiple hits he takes.

Retsu has absolutely no reason not to scale to Pickle, just significantly below.

Drawing blood from someone is more than enough to scale, unless you want to argue that the someone isn't actually hurt somehow. Even Doyle has some reason behind that, being that Oliva was caught by surprise, attacked with bladed weapons, and was still obviously far stronger and more durable than Doyle.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Not entirely sure what the problem is here but to clear up any confusion.

https://********.org/chapter/202805/1
If Musashi was a glass cannon like people say he is, he would've died right here. That's just that.

https://********.org/chapter/201730/1

Retsu made Pickle bleed if only a little.

Musashi just is not a glass cannon under any circumstances without deliberately ignoring multiple hits he takes.

Retsu has absolutely no reason not to scale to Pickle, just significantly below.

Drawing blood from someone is more than enough to scale, unless you want to argue that the someone isn't actually hurt somehow. Even Doyle has some reason behind that, being that Oliva was caught by surprise, attacked with bladed weapons, and was still obviously far stronger and more durable than Doyle.

But that would be ignoring both the consistent showings and portrayal of the characters and their dynamic within the scale of the show and what we’ve consistently seen Itagaki do to represent power gaps. Yanagi survived a bloodlusted hit from Yujiro, and Baki drew blood from Oliva during the prison inmate arc, but 7-C Yanagi and 7-C NGB Baki wouldn’t be consistent in feats or scaling, though they survived/drew blood because Itagaki doesn’t even portray people being gored to pieces save for AP gaps as large as 7-C Yujiro during Vietnam and Athletic Human soldiers. To that point as well, it’s also extremely rare to see someone flat out not take damage from a hit despite them being in oneshot territory, like Chiba, who smashed Baki’s nose in despite consistently being a 9-A besides that one moment, or Ali Jr. fighting against 9-A basically fresh off of the Maximum Tournament fighters, yet not exploding in fire and viscera when fighting a Baki whose about to take on Oliva shortly thereafter. The consistency in Baki is messed up because of Itagaki wanting to keep it realistic, but also having walking nukes, so while I do think our current way of scaling isn’t perfect, I think it’s the best we can manage in terms of consistency, because if we backscale for small injuries like drawing blood, the entire verse would backscale via people like Shiba, NGB Baki, and Yanagi, to be 7-C, and that makes 0 sense

 

[NotoriouSoda]

So what are the consensus here?

 

[BakiHanma18]

Not sure. Amlad seems to be against, I’m against High 8-Cs or 9-As to 7-C and I’m neutral on Low 7-Cs to 7-C

 

[Anttron224]

I seem to have missed a lot

 

[Anttron224]

I think Amlad makes the most sense, but I disagree on Doppo not reaching Yujiro imo.
I also think Hl3_or_bust has made some good points on Musashi.

 

[BakiHanma18]

So what we’re mainly looking at now is 7-C durability Musashi and Doppo scaling to Yujiro? Does anyone disagree with Amlad beyond those points?

 

[Amlad22]

I do understand Musashi since he has a few durability feats that are genuinely 7-C but the bulk of his showings are 8-B at best. He has three instances of 7-C or at least Low 7-C durability with the remaining dozen or so of his feats being much lower.

The whole idea of “this person should have been reduced to gore/died therefore they scale is also not something we should be considering in a verse where everyone holds back as to not kill their opponents. Baki attacks regular prison guards in the Prison Arc with full on punches and kicks yet they aren’t even knocked out half the time. Does this mean regular humans in Baki verse are Low 7-C? Ofc not it’s bc Baki is holding back. Itagaki makes almost all of his characters hold back for different reasons. Basically every god tier outside of Musashi hold back on a regular basis. When they don’t hold back we do genuinely see people getting one shot or even killed.

Anyway I think we’ve agreed on a couple things at least. Jack, Ron Shobun and now maybe Prime Doppo all scaling to Low 7-C is looking good. As much as I disagree with Doppo it’s not inconsistent at all.

Musashi is not wildly inconsistent but still inconsistent enough to bring up big issues. Retsu is wildly inconsistent and should not be scaling under any circumstances. The entire fight Itagaki shoves it down our throats that Retsu can’t harm Pickle and can only hold him off. He only harmed Pickle with a counter (that also resulted in him being knocked out cold) and in the very next set of chapters Katsumi is straight up confirmed to be Retsu’s superior after his training and his regular blows still can’t harm Pickle. I rest my case.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Yet again, I’m incline to agree with Amlad, especially with Doppo. I just re-read the Kenjin section of Baki Gaiden, and I think Doppo scaling is fair.

Does anyone disagree? What’s the consensus?

 

[Sir_Ovens]

The whole idea of “this person should have been reduced to gore/died therefore they scale is also not something we should be considering in a verse where everyone holds back as to not kill their opponents.

How are you able to say this in the same breath as saying Musashi's lower end feats outweigh his higher end ones? Musashi literally fights to kill, and bloodlusted Yujiro absolutely does not hold back.

 

[BakiHanma18]

How are you able to say this in the same breath as saying Musashi's lower end feats outweigh his higher end ones? Musashi literally fights to kill, and bloodlusted Yujiro absolutely does not hold back.

Tbf, I think the consistency of it is more the issue, IE Yanagi surviving a bloodlusted hit from Yujiro

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

@BakiHanma18

I do find it hilarious that most of your reasons for a particular character to not scale to someone they obviously harmed is because they're not comparable, ignoring the feat itself and substituting the tiering system instead. You're making the argument assuming that the conclusion you're arguing for is already correct to begin with, and tier 8 Baki barely has any reason to exist. By the time anyone can even touch Baki after the imaginary earthquake feat, he's fighting Pickle who has tier 7 stuff on his own scaling to Yujiro. The Yanagi feat doesn't prove anything, as he was not even remotely bloodlusted and Yanagi had his ability to chew food removed from his face.

@Amlad22

There is a massive different between featless mooks not being gored by single hits and characters who are treated as comparable outright being comparable. You're also doing the exact same thing as BakiHanma by ignoring feats and substituting them with your own scaling that ignores any feats you don't like as well as assuming your own conclusion to be true.

I seriously don't understand you people. Your logic of "itegaki portrays power levels weirdly" is just patently false to begin with and even if it was true you arbitrarily backscale by orders of magnitude to the point that you're unironically arguing that a High 8-C can damage and take hits from a 7-C yet not scale. The fact that you do this alone should be evidence that every single thing you're arguing is objectively faulty on every possible level.

 

[Ionliosite]

Yeah, I still agree with Ovens and H13, his latest argument in particular sums up my thought fairly well.

 

[BakiHanma18]

@Hl3_or_bust My argument isn’t “they don’t scale because they aren’t comparable”, that’s circular reasoning. My argument is 7-C Motobe without weapons is inconsistent, 7-C Retsu is inconsistent and completely disregards the narrative, and 7-C Katsumi is very much the same. Both Retsu and Katsumi were made out to be completely out of their league against Pickle. Hell, Katsumi said he almost died from pain after getting hit by Pickle once, and he successfully blocked the hit. Also, the Yanagi feat does prove something: we shouldn’t scale people to people they consistently don’t scale to because of a few showings. Again, Ali bruised young Yujiro with Muhammad Ali MMA, Ali knocked 7-C Baki over with a single hit, Baki drew blood from Oliva in the Prisoner arc, Doyle survived Oliva crushing him, Chiharu damaged Baki in Son of Ogre, etc.

 

[Amlad22]

@H13

Itagaki does portray power in a weird way. But that was not my argument. I’m detailing what is consistent by listing feats where as multiple people here only want to look at the absolute highest possible feats. If a character has a plethora of 8-B feats and then magically a 7-C feat appears. It’s either PIS or an outlier. This is very very simple stuff.

High 8-C and 8-B can’t harm 7-C’s. That’s why they are where they are. Every character with consistent feats is being upgraded. I’ve already explained why Retsu level characters are not 7-C where as Jack or Hana are.

Also, Ovens. Yujiro does hold back. All the time. That’s why he can hit 13yo Baki and 15yo Hana and not insta kill them. Idk why it’s so unfathomable for some of you that characters aren’t always using 100% of their power with every single attack. Most people in the top tiers hold back and we know this bc most of the time it’s flat out stated like with Oliva and Pickle.

I love this verse, I really do. I’ve been reading SOO and Dou all over again just to make sure any changes made are right. But I’m not going to let my love for the series cloud my judgment and only look at feats that are clearly outliers or cases of PIS and I suggest everyone else do the same.

 

[DMUA]

I haven't really been paying attention to this thread but I've been extorted by Ovens into saying something so

From my understanding the High 8-C and 8-B stuff is just 7-Cs being casual, and for some reason whenever someone minorly harms another character we scale them to that instead of back from 7-C

Either they scale to other feats or they don't, casual durability isn't really a thing (except for Oliva apparently but that's something actually justified in verse)

 

[BakiHanma18]

I’m not 100% sure I understand the middle section, but to clarify my stance, the High 8-Cs are hurting 7-Cs, but I disagree with scaling them to these showings because of consistency and narrative portrayal. Speaking solely in terms of power scaling, the High 8-Cs would scale because they hurt 7-Cs, but that’s being disingenuous when looking at all of their other feats and how they are portrayed in terms of strength. If, for example, a character has ~5 showings of High 8-C, but only 1 or 2 showings of 7-C, and they were oneshot by those same 7-Cs later on in the fight, I’d believe it to be more consistent to say they are High 8-C, and that the 7-C showings were outliers

 

[DMUA]

I'm getting contradicting input on them having more showings of High 8-C as opposed to 7-C, offer them.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

High 8-C isn't even a proper tier anyone has, it's a tier assigned to the god tier of the verse, who is already 7-C. There is no logical explanation that anyone should scale to High 8-C.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Sure thing, I can mention the 7-C showings now, but I’ll have to go back and gather the High 8-C showings: 7-C stuff iirc is just Retsu hurting Pickle and possibly Retsu hurting Musashi, though 7-C durability Musashi may still be up for debate

 

[DMUA]

High 8-C isn't even a proper tier anyone has, it's a tier assigned to the god tier of the verse, who is already 7-C. There is no logical explanation that anyone should scale to High 8-C.

That's what I already figured. From the lightning calc, right?

Hurting a 7-C is just lower down 7-C, that's that.

If these High 8-C showings are just doing more damage than a feat that did not phase Yujiro in the slightest, toss them.

 

[Amlad22]

@DMUA

Basically there’s a select few feats that people are grasping at in hopes of getting their favs to 7-C. When in reality, 99% of their showings are not 7-C at all.

Retsu and Katsumi vs Pickle is honestly the best example of this. The entire Retsu vs Pickle fight is Itagaki shoving it down our throats that Retsu can’t hurt Pickle. I’m not joking there’s an entire chapter about how Retsu’s full power attacks do NOTHING to Pickle. Then at the very end of the fight (literally the last move) Retsu throws out a counter that hurts Pickle but still gets KO’d himself despite using Pickle’s own charge against him. Yes. Totally 7-C. 100% not anything that would disprove 7-C right? Ofc not literally everything in the fight is against Retsu being anywhere near Pickle except for a single attack being taken out of context.

Katsumi’s fight follows the same logic. First we can look at the pre fight statements, where Kaku and Retsu both say that Katsumi is at the very least equal to Retsu even without taking into account the True Mach Punch. For the first stage of the fight itself, Katsumi’s regular Mach Punch attacks (attacks that are stronger than his regular attacks) do, you guessed it folks, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to Pickle. Katsumi then takes a single causal kick from Pickle that has him struggling to stand up. In the second stage of the fight, Katsumi uses the True Mach Punch and actually hurts Pickle. He puts the dude on his knees which is something previously unseen. However, do you know what the side effect of this is? Katsumi has him arm destroyed, that’s right, destroyed. Just using a 7-C attack was tearing Katsumi’s body apart bc he’s not 7-C himself and neither is Retsu or Doppo or anyone on that level.

Also casual durability is only a thing for the characters that have ridiculous muscle control like Oliva. Anyone who reads Kengan Ashura will know when I say it’s similar to indestructible what I’m talking about. Pickle also shows this as well. He goes from taking damage from 9mm bullets when he’s not flexing his muscles to no selling Mach Punches from Katsumi while he’s only somewhat trying and then taking hits from ******* Musashi with minor damage when he’s going all out. Pickle is almost as absurd as Oliva tbh. I’m sure Yujiro would follow the same logic but Yujiro just doesn’t get hurt bc he’s too strong even when he’s not flexing.

 

[Amlad22]

That's what I already figured. From the lightning calc, right?

Hurting a 7-C is just lower down 7-C, that's that.

If these High 8-C showings are just doing more damage than a feat that did not phase Yujiro in the slightest, toss them.

The lightning calc isn’t being used anymore. It’s just gonna be 8-C now unless we can find a way to accurately calc it.

Hurting a 7-C is 7-C for sure, but not when it’s an outlier like I brought up so many times before.

Also we already have Base SOO Baki at Low 7-C because math who is narratively above the side cast by a massive margin. It’s just even more proof on top of everything else that characters like Retsu are not 7-C or even Low 7-C for that matter.

 

[DMUA]

It’s just gonna be 8-C now unless we can find a way to accurately calc it

From what?

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

@BakiHanma18

Inconsistent with what? Retsu hadn't done anything important since he fought Doyle like 300 chapters earlier and Motobe hadn't done anything important since the fight with Yanagi, which is hundreds of chapters beforehand. There are literally no feats for 7-C Retsu and Motobe to be inconsistent with, and Motobe was stated to have undergone special training before the fight with Musashi.

Almost all of those feats has some logic behind it, disregarding the fact that many of these characters have very few other relevant feats to be inconsistent with. We don't know how strong young Yujiro was, so that argument is completely useless. When the **** did Ali fight Baki? The most I can remember is him punching him off of Ali Jr., which did basically 0 damage, and this was before Pickle was even a thing at all. I don't remember Baki doing anything meaningful to Oliva at the time other than being stronger than he expected. Oliva was being exceedingly casual at the time and Doyle has a bunch of cyborg bullshit to make most wounds not matter much. And what is wrong with the Chiharu feat exactly, other than you just saying it makes no sense because you've decided that it doesn't? Baki ran eye-first directly into Chiharu's fingers, which not only did basically no damage to Baki, but also shattered Chiharu's fingers.

@Amlad22

And why are they High 8-C or 8-B to begin with? You're trying to prove they are those tiers, so why are you them being that tier as an argument for them being that tier? And yet again, what is 7-C Retsu inconsistent with? He has no ******* feats for the last 300 chapters or so, so is he inconsistent with nothing at all and thus consistent or inconsistent with your arbitrary designation of what his tier should be?

Yujiro not being serious at all times is literally why any of the series even happens. If he was always attacking to kill, Baki would've died in the field when he was 13 y/o. But even when exceedingly casual and ******* around, Yujiro is always shown as incomparably superior to basically everyone in the room with certain exceptions, like how he basically deleted a guy's entire spine by lightly pushing him or absolutely mauls an entire boxing gym. Even with all this, normal people don't draw blood from him, something extremely few people in the series have done, or match his strength.

The only character in the scaling web who shouldn't be 7-C without special stuff is Katsumi, who is constantly stated to be way weaker than Retsu and Baki, and only made up for that with the True Mach Punch.

 

[Amlad22]

@DMUA

Lightning is 8-C

@H13

Because we have a new feat that puts them there. We were going to have them at 8-C if we didn’t get a calc for an 8-B feat. High 8-C doesn’t really exist anymore.

Did you honestly ignore everything I said about Retsu? Please read the breakdown I gave on his fight with Pickle. I made it really really easy to understand.

Katsumi is consistently stated to be equal to or above Retsu as of SOO. You’re just flat out wrong with this claim. Retsu himself also states that he’s magnitudes below Base Baki so don’t go comparing them together.

Your response to BakiHanma is also filled with hypocritical statements but I’m sure he’ll point that out.

 

[DMUA]

Lightning is 8-C

... the High 8-C calc actually hasn't been invalidated by anything, keeping electricity going for that long is High 8-C and the lightning bolt is explicitly breaking normal physics

and even then we're back to square 1 of how you shouldn't be scaling people to a casual feat by a 7-C if they can actually do damage

Sure, if Retsu and such are utterly powerless against pickle, they shouldn't scale, but they also shouldn't scale to some arbitrary tier from a bit feat.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

The only guy who was completely ****** against Pickle was Katsumi, but the True Mach Punch scaling isn't an issue of contention.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Ali, who’s stronger son consistently fights 9-As equally, bruised Baki’s face, who would shortly go on to fight Oliva in the very next arc

Consistently 9-A Chiharu smashing in 7-C Baki’s face in, despite Baki breaking Chiharu’s fingers with his ******* eyes moments later

Also, 2 things to note: Doyle’s metal endoskeleton does mean he’d survive a 7-C attack as a 9-A, and he even gets ****** by the attack anyway, and Retsu literally almost lost to Joe Frazier, an old rival of Ali’s and likely comparable, during his boxing stint, something that happens after his fight with Pickle, as well as fighting other boxers fairly evenly (or at least not killing them all in one hit if that’s what we’re going by).

 

[DMUA]

Ali, who’s stronger son consistently fights 9-As equally, bruised Baki’s face, who would shortly go on to fight Oliva in the very next arc

... didn't Ali fight Yujiro in his prime? And in fact, didn't Baki already do some damage to Oliva in the arc prior to this? Not much, probably wouldn't have them scale, but it's also like... confusing, to use as an anti feat, not gonna lie

Doyle’s metal endoskeleton does mean he’d survive a 7-C attack as a 9-A

No it doesn't. If his skeleton can withstand 7-C attacks, it's 7-C. Whether or not it's inconsistent with other showings of his dura, or if AP should scale, is another question.

an old rival of Ali’s and likely comparable

again I'm pretty sure Ali was around Yujiro's level in his prime

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

@H13

Because we have a new feat that puts them there. We were going to have them at 8-C if we didn’t get a calc for an 8-B feat. High 8-C doesn’t really exist anymore.

Did you honestly ignore everything I said about Retsu? Please read the breakdown I gave on his fight with Pickle. I made it really really easy to understand.

Katsumi is consistently stated to be equal to or above Retsu as of SOO. You’re just flat out wrong with this claim. Retsu himself also states that he’s magnitudes below Base Baki so don’t go comparing them together.

Your response to BakiHanma is also filled with hypocritical statements but I’m sure he’ll point that out.

What feat? Retsu basically falls of the face of the earth after Doyle until SoO.

I did not. It's just that your logic is faulty and bullshit. You completely ignore several major parts of that fight and the fact that Retsu objectively made Pickle bleed at the end, something you can't do while also being several hundred times weaker than him as your scaling says.

He ******* isn't what. The two fights with Pickle should prove everything you said wrong. And I don't even know what you're going at with the last sentence.

I don't see how he can point out much when he's constantly assuming his own conclusion to be true in his attempts to prove his conclusion, which throws everything he's saying into a garbage fire.

 

[BakiHanma18]

@DMUA To address each point piece by piece, Ali doesn’t scale to Yujiro. In his prime, the best he could manage was a scratch on Yujiro, and in fairness to @Hl3_or_bust, it’s true that we don’t know how strong young Yujiro is. Furthermore, old Ali claims during his interview that for 1 minute, he can still be as strong as he was in his prime, and Ali Jr. is still better than him in every way. Also, about Doyle, that’s the point: the metal endoskeleton didn’t do shit. Doyle still got completely crushed, but similar to Yanagi surviving a hit from an angry Yujiro, Doyle didn’t die from being crushed.

 

[DMUA]

So it doesn't mean anything.