Azure Striker Gunvolt revision before the 3rd game comes out

[The_Smashor]

Alright, a few things.

Sumeragi Swordsmen AP

Our current way of doing it is dumb. Basically, we're scaling them to half of Tenjian's feat based on mirror shards. This is dumb since the multipliers upscale from this stuff, and also Septimal Surge's multiplier was never stated. This also means that Muse shards and the like will simply be a more or less flat buff and not multipliers, though full power Anthems will still be 9x stronger than Tenjian's feat instead of 18x stronger.

As such, the Swordsmen need a new feat.

The swordsmen are very likely comparable to the Fusion Adept. Fusion Adept also controls a Red Mantis, which is inferior or equal to the Swordsmen. It's also likely comparable the Galland, another mid-boss, which did this, which is Low 7-B.

This would change various profiles as such:

Swordsmen: Low 7-B

Gunvolt's 1st key: At least Low 7-B. Higher with Septimal Surge. 6-C with Joule's Anthem or when enraged

Nova: Low 7-B. Higher with Joule's power | At least Low 7-B. At least 6-C with Joule's power

Falcons and Blade AP

This is a bit more controversial among supporters, but I'm putting this here anyways.

Basically, the Butterfly Effect is what buffs The Falcons when they transform using a Falcon Quill.

The way I see it, the Falcons should be full Anthem level. This is supported by a number of things, like how they can all threaten Copen despite him being able to fight Demerzel, who is stronger than the Anthem level Asimov.

This also applies to Base Blade, as not only can Regular and Berserk Blade keep up with Copen in the same fight, it's implied that Berserk Trigger is more about controlling Blade than actively buffing her.

"I'm getting an irregular Septima reading. It's...being controlled."
- Lola, in reference to Blade entering Berserk Trigger

It's unclear if the Anthem abilities would apply to Base Brainwashed Blade or not, however.

Elise has snakes and stuff

Elise should have poison manipulation since her snakes are noted to be poisonous. GV and likely other Adepts should also resist Poison Manipulation due to this stuff.

 

[Xmark12]

Firstly, Copen is not Demerzel level. He practically got two shotted in-lore: the first time he was lucky to survive since it only grazed him and hit his camera eye. The second time he was directly hit and was one shotted by a generic lightning strike. The only reason why he "defeated" Demerzel was because Demerzel had clear obvious weak points to exploit (the giant orbs atop each jar), and even then Demerzel would've won by slowly recovering if it weren't for Kohaku finishing the job.

Yes the Butterfly Effect amps the Falcons, but we don't know by specifically how much, whether it's comparable to an actual Anthem buff or not. To me, the Falcons should be comparable to Eden with Muse Shards, since realistically, why the hell would Demerzel want people with Muse-level power wandering around? All they would need is just enough power to enforce peace, not enough to possibly overthrow Sumeragi. Even in gameplay, there's a huge difference between the Falcons and an Anthem-buffed Copen.

So it would be better to simply have base Copen throughout all of iX remain the same tier: similar to his GV2 counterpart, and everyone but Demerzel and possibly Blade (since she's clearly been established to be the superior in all 3 of their encounters) will scale to base Copen.

 

[Smashtwig]

Okay, so me and Smashor came to an agreement that we butt heads too often about this topic, we just both state our arguments- and then just leave it to over people (Mods, whatever) without arguing in thread. So, here's my case.

Yes, the scaling is rather inconsistent, there's no reason for Copen to just, randomly get stronger at the end of the game, but this happens all the time in shows. At least in his case he like, levels up and stuff, increasing his HP. Plus, when fighting Demerzel, he's really just fighting... a jar, not Demerzel himself, yeah, he took hits from Demerzel, but again, he's been leveling up through the adventure, and both the Blade and Demerzel fights are implied to be extremely hard fights due to just being a massive difficulty spike, at least for a new player (the former he lost, and you can argue he just outmobilitied and possibly skilled Demerzel to actually get him to weaken, and then Demerzel... beat him- in fact he did technically get 2 shot, you can argue that the first hit was a graze). They even did the whole X vs Vile thing, where Vile defeats X, the player, in the intro stage, incentivizing the player to grow stronger. Well, this isn't too important, it just leads me to my main opinion on how we handle things:

I prefer a scaling dissonance over a story dissonance. The scaling may not work, but I want the story to work. What do I mean by this?

Let's start with my main contention with this CRT

Falcons Being Muse Amp'd
As the OP explained, Falcon Quills do allow the Falcons to interact with the Muse, and get powered up. This much, I agree with. What I don't agree with is it being a completely FULL Muse Amp (meaning, the full power of the Muse, like an Anthem Gunvolt for example, the 6-C one).

There are a few reasons why, and most of them have to do with Blade:

Berserk Trigger

Blade IS being mind controlled, but she, already was mine controlled in her normal state by the Butterfly Effect
This is her profile from the OST Booklet. Yes, I do have access to the booklet itself, scans and everything, but this is the (literal) translated version of what it says about Blade:

She’s 17 years old. She’s a girl who was transplanted with the “Armed Blue” Septima Factors from Gunvolt’s corpse, and Kohaku’s sister. She’s being brainwashed by Demerzel, and does his bidding as the strongest Sumeragi Septima Holder. Demerzel told her there’s a time limit to how much she can be active, but that’s actually a means to have her retreat at once whenever her brainwashing is about to come off.

In other words, there's no need to mind control her any further than she already is, after all she's already completely under control in a fight.

However, the English translators, Matt Papa and Andrew Singleton, really feel like it's obvious that Blade has powered up here. Berserk Trigger is a very common trope where the user gets stronger, and in turn, has less control, she goes crazy, and becomes nearly illiterate, her only words being "KILL". Her attack patterns are straight up just juicer versions of her Normal State, and she does more damage (yes, you can test this in the pause menu). And yes, the Lola Navi in the English Version, which the OP has used as evidence, however...

RoRo Navi：
この異常なセプティマ反応の上昇...暴走して...いやさせらてる？
Kono ijou na seputima hannou no joushou… bousou *****… iya, sasereteru?
This abnormal increase of his Septima signature… He’s running wild…? Or is being forced to…?

Is a mistranslation, likely because Matt and Andrew thought that was very obvious.

Now, why does this matter?

The OP is basically saying that all Falcon's, including Blade, are by default Fully Muse Amped (6-C), or, numerically "100% Muse Amped". Berserk Trigger is indeed the Butterfly Effect increasing Blade's powers. BUT. If she's already amped by the Muse by 100% by DEFAULT, like the OP is suggesting. That means Berserk Trigger is the Butterfly Effect increasing it even more... but the contradiction is that the Butterfly ALREADY is amping Blade to it's full capacity, it can't possibly make her any more powerful at all with Berserk Trigger... which it clearly does.

Keep in mind that Berserk Trigger... makes Blade go crazy and want to only kill iX and Minos, this is important for later.

How this links back to the Falcons
First off, how Falcon's get Falcon Quills to use the power of the Muse is on the official website

The Institute for the Promotion of Human Evolution "Sumeragi" conscripts citizens determined to have powerful Septimas to become elite soldiers known as Falcons. Sumeragi entrusts these select few with a "Falcon Quill", allowing them to enter a contract that unlocks their Septima's full potential and changes their physical form."

From here, we learn two things:

• Sumeragi/Demerzel ENTRUSTS the Quills to the Falcons, giving them power.
• Falcons enter a "contract", when they use the Quills

So clearly, the Falcons are "under a contract" to have this power. Contracts... can be broken, like the Terms and Conditions of using a software, etc.. Of course, they would have to suffer the consequences of breaking said Contract, which would be Demerzel probably taking away that power and declaring it treason. However, this... doesn't really STOP them from abusing their new power.

This is similar to giving a US Marine or just a normal citizen the access codes and authorization to launch a nuclear bomb. Yes, they would probably be punished for launching a nuke for a stupid reason, but they can still... do it. Just replace Nuke with 100% Muse.

Why is this a big deal? Well, the Muse IS a big deal, its the primary hyped up power of the series, it's treated as the big kahuna, the mother of all omelets, the spartan laser, that only Final Bosses like Nova and Zonda use, and is what is being battled over for the ENTRIETY of the first two games. The most hyped up power boost in the series so far. To allow mere... bosses to have it seems very strange.

Demerzel would NOT trust all Falcons to have the full muse, in fact, why wouldn't he just Muse Amp EVERY Adept, which is the entire population of his country if he did? Well... even the Falcon's have very human issues.

Bakto, for example, just wants Sumeragi to free his gang, and uses the Falcon Quill so he has the power to defeat Copen/iX and have Sumeragi free his family. If he REALLY had the MOST POWERFUL thing in the series thus far, he wouldn't need to make compromises, he can just break his friends out. Yes, that would be breaking the "Contract", but nothing is stopping him, he'd only lose his Muse powers AFTER he broke the Contract. Otherwise, it's like the police arresting you because you broke the law by robbing a house... BEFORE you even came close to robbing the house (basically the police would need proof and all of that). And no, Demerzel DOESN'T mind control everyone, and here's a series of proof of this being the case.

Exhibit A: Not all Adepts are opposed to Minos, at best, they just don't really think or care about them
From the words of an Adept Girl in the Drama CD "Prologue: Muse of Hope" (the first one, Lola being the second person in the convo)

ロロちゃんはマイナーズの...いいえ、みんなのために歌いますよね
RoRo (Lola) chan wa mainaazu no… Iie, minna no tame ni utaimasu yo ne
You sing for the Minors (Minos)… No… You sing for everyone, no? RoRo-chan

そのメッセージは力強くて、かっこよくて、重要なのは声じゃない...歌に込める想いなんだってわかったんです
Sono messejii wa chikara tsuyokute, kakko yokute, juuyou nano wa koe janai… Uta ni komeru omoi nandatta wakattan desu
That message is so powerful… And cool… What matters isn’t one’s voice but… The feelings you pour into song… That’s what I understood…

そう言ってもらえるとすごく嬉しいよ
Sou itte moraeru to sugoku ureshii yo
Saying that makes me feel very happy

わたし、ロロちゃんの歌のお陰でホルダーもマイナーズも関係ない、同じ人間なんだって考えられるようになりました
Watashi, RoRo chan no uta no okage de Horudaa mo Mainaazu mo kankei nai. Onaji ningen nandatte kangaerareru you ni narimashita
Your songs, RoRo-chan, helped me… That regardless of Holders or Minors… We’re all equally humans… That’s what you helped me realize

不思議なんです。マイナーズのこと、存在は知ってたはずなのに今まで考えたことも考えようと思ったこともなかった
Fushigi nandesu, Mainaazu no koto, sonzai wa shitteta hazu nano ni ima made kangaeta koto mo kangaeyou to omotta koto mo nakatta
It’s very strange… Even though I should know about the Minors...I’d never thought about them or tried to think about them…

それはバタフライエフェクトの...
Sore wa batafurai efekuto no…
That’s the Butterfly Effect’s...

ううん、嬉しいけど、キミのためにもあんまり言いふらさないほうがいいよ 危ないから
Uun, ureshii kedo, kimi no tame ni mo anmari iifurasanai hou ga ii yo abunai kara
Oh, no. I’m glad of it. I better not tell you these things… Since it’s dangerous

Exhibit B: Blade

As mentioned before, Berserk Trigger makes Blade go absolutely crazy and just wants to kill Minos and iX and whatever, as I outlined before, this is absolutely the Muse in full effect here, however, from the LAiX OST Booklet:

By receiving the “contract signature” from the Winged Warriors (Falcons), it transforms them as well as acting upon the subconscious of all Septima Holders across the world and slowly makes them lose interest or concern for the Minors (Minos).

They are SLOWLY losing interest and concern for Minos, not go crazy about killing them like Blade does, since they both use the same power source (Butterfly Effect/Muse), and Blade's clearly far more affected, its safe to say it's more potent on Blade than it is on the Falcons, meaning they can't be a 100% Muse without going absolutely crazy about killing Minos and iX. In fact, why does Blade go crazy when fully powered up by the Muse, but the Falcon's aren't? Occam's Razor- Falcon's aren't fully powered up by the Muse.

Blade's Role and the Falcons
Blade's role in this society is being the "King" piece of Demerzel's ideal world, a brainwashed killing machine that does nothing but do as Demerzel, our "Palpatine" in this case, says. In fact, this is the exact same thing as Star Wars. Asimov/Demerzel, made an entire plan to get Gunvolt ("Darth Vader") on his side of his human genocidal plan, Gunvolt being his "King Piece" and Joule, the Muse at the time, being the "Queen Piece". Much like how Palpatine having a whole plan to turn Anakin into Darth Vader as his puppet.

When Gunvolt refused, Asimov killed him, and implanted his Septimosomes ("Midichlorians") into Blade, after all, he only needs Gunvolt's powers, not him himself, to make that killing machine he wanted, "directly under his command", like the website says.

It's pretty clear that Asimov/Demerzel is planning to combine the Muse and Gunvolt's powers together to make an ultimate killing machine. If he can really just give EVERY FALCON 100% of the Muse, why did he need an Azure Striker "King Piece" to begin with? Clearly, he only trusts an Azure Striker with the Muse's full power, after all, he absolutely wanked it as the ultimate power (Azure Striker Gunvolt; 2014; Final boss fight dialogue), he wouldn't trust a mere Falcon with it, not with his grand vision.

Copen's Power
Copen in this game is based on his GV2 Gameplay style, he plays exactly the same. It's safe to say, he's just as strong as his GV2 self, it may be 100 years into the future, but he's spent all that time in a wasteland fighting constantly, he has no home base UNTIL the events of the game, he has no time to upgrade himself. If Falcons were really 100% Muse, he'd get demolished

Speaking of him, if this OP really gets through to fix our scaling dissonance, we would have to fix ASG2 Copen's scaling dissonance too, which has the same issue as "Base Copen vs 100% Muse Final Boss" issue coming along.

Conclusion on Falcons
Well, if this evidence is enough to be convincing to the mods, then here's my suggestion. Leave everything as it is, it's shown with a mere fraction of the Muse's powers, being 1 of 9 shards, can produce the 7-A feat, honestly, that's the best we can go off of- since they are actually amped by the Muse in some way, just... not completely full on.

Muse Shard Multipliers
The premise for this nerf is that it's not outrighted stated in the menu that Septimal Surge is a 2x Boost. But in reality, it... really is 2x, I tested it as Copen, fighting against Gunvolt who used Septimal Surge. Gunvolt's Astrasphere did 25 Damage before Septimal Surge, and then did 50 damage with it. The math checks out, but idk how this site deals with it, so, I'll let mods handle it

Sumeragi Swordsmen
I'm not going to lie, this doesn't matter to me, but... Sumeragi Swordsmen being L7B doesn't make much sense. Let's say they really are L7B, 1 Megaton. Gunvolt fights them, so he's 1 Megaton.

There is a 6-month time gap between GV1 and 2. However, Gunvolt spends most of this time literally wandering around (Drama CD; Quinn Story? Dengeki Profiles) and being depressed. In fact, in the opening stage of GV2, Gunvolt says he's rusty on the field, he has done nearly no fighting to support that he got 690x stronger in the time skip- so if anything, he should have gotten weaker not only physically, but in Septimal power too (as Septima is linked to emotions and thought- since it is a psychic power). In addition, Septima is based completely on your psyche, and being depressed doesn't exactly help all that much. Yes, Eden members with Muse Shards are stronger than Sumeragi Swordsmen, but the fact that GV can fight them at all means the Swordsmen at least downscale, since they scale to GV. If we are going to fix the scaling dissonance in Luminous Avenger iX, we have to for this too. You can also say that "well, he merged with Joule, so he gets a passive power buff" but that's not how it works, Joule gives him power when she sings for him at her disgression, that's it- the Muse Shard Grimoires forcibly use that power, because it's technology designed to abuse that power.

For Nova specifically, I'd like to point out that Nova's power is absolutely MASSIVE. So much so it's promoted in Dengeki Profiles, AND the official website. Gunvolt has experienced the Muse's power before prior to their fight, and he had no problem fighting Nova with the full muse on his side (although it was mostly the Muse itself carrying Nova, since Nova's Septima was super weakened and sealed in Glaives). In addition, Nova kinda just stomped full power Viper with this sealed state. Gunvolt fighting Muse Amp'd Nova auto puts him at 7-A, and he wasn't really all that mad. It's when Nova transformed when Gunvolt's like "wow, he's really strong" (in 8-4 translation, he goes "how strong IS he?"), and THEN he got mad. The fact that Gunvolt is surprised at Nova transforming, but didn't bat much of an eye when fighting Muse Amped non transformed Nova is quite telling of Nova's actual power even without the Muse. In addition, if the Swordsman are L7B and GV has to fight them with effort, how the bloody heck is he going to fight Nova (who, by the end of 3, apparently would scale to a H6B Moebius according to the OP)?!

More things on Nova, he is the sole reason why Zonda/Eden didn't make their move to completely take over Sumeragi, meaning he'd at least scale to Glaived Fake-Zonda, who scales to Muse Sharded Eden members. Meaning that somehow a L7B Gunvolt would have to fight a 7-A Nova WITH a Muse Boost. I suppose you can say Rage Power is that strong, but still it's really far fetched

Conclusion on Sumeragi
Well... just keep it at 7-A, downscale it imo



Also the poison is something I agree with.

Also Nova should have Star Dragon level range, (Drama CD, will get scans later, basically he has a satellite that he can control to shoot Earth from way up there)

 

[Poppio2]

Does the muse have feats of controlling the dead or some form of mind control? I recall in a conversation about her or in her intro she can control minds or something.

 

[Xmark12]

Yeah. Blade's even controlled by the same power as the Muse.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Smashtwig's comment makes sense to me; though I do not know the verse all too well.

 

[Smashtwig]

Alright- so that's that- the poison resist and the Star Dragon stuff should be good too, of course, I'll provide the source for the latter when I get to it

 

[The_Smashor]

Hey, could someone take a look at the swordsmen AP? Because we need an end for that and our current version is kinda bad

 

[Smashtwig]

I thought I kinda already addressed that, but maybe we should wait for another mod just to make sure?

 

[EliminatorVenom]

I know nothing about Gunvolt, so my opinion might not be the best for this, however, basing around what I've read around here, Smashtwig's comment makes sense. The only thing I can comment on is "if characters had X power, they would already likely do Y", as that reasoning is, overall, not a good one when dealing with fiction.

Nonetheless, everything said here seems good from a logic standpoint, although, again, I am not well-versed on Gunvolt and I am a bit tired at the moment.

 

[Smashtwig]

The only thing I can comment on is "if characters had X power, they would already likely do Y", as that reasoning is, overall, not a good one when dealing with fiction.

Oh, when ur no longer tired, can you point out which sentence specifically you were trying to refer to? I can try and clear up any misconceptions

 

[The_Smashor]

Oh my god...

Listen, we literally physically cannot have the AP for the Sumeragi Swordsmen that we do now.

It's based on a Muse Shard upscaling from a 2x multiplier based on Septimal Surge, making the Swordsmen one half of. There are several problems with this way of doing things.

1. Septimal Surge is literally never stated to be a 2x multiplier, this is obtained purely from gameplay.
2. Even if it was stated, making the Sumeragi Swordsmen downscale from that by half makes no sense because the Muse Shard upscales from the 2x Multiplier, meaning that the swordsmen's AP would be less than half that of The Seven if we were going to go by this logic
3. We aren't even going to be using multipliers anymore soon, but rather will be giving the power of The Muse a flat buff, as this makes more sense than arbitrary multipliers to begin with. The plan is also to make full Anthems 9x stronger than a member of The Seven due to logically being 9x stronger than 1/9th of The Muse's power, but even that'll probably be changed once we implement the Gunvolt 3 stuff.

TL;DR: The current way the Sumeragi Swordsmen AP works is totally illogical on several levels, so we need to know if the iX Midboss scaling is approved or not.

 

[Xmark12]

The thing is, the 2x multiplier is the only thing we have that's concrete. Otherwise it'd just be arbitrary. Plus, a ton of profiles on this wiki already use gameplay multipliers for their stuff when there isn't proof otherwise too.

Also, why doesn't the Sumeragi Swordsmen scale to Eden? They should in my opinion, since GV shouldn't have gotten stronger at all between GV1 and GV2, even stating at the start of GV2 that he's rusty. The Muse being in him wouldn't matter since it's never established to passively give power, only when it's activated (otherwise Joule would be so friggin' buff). GV was also depressed in-between games, and it's known that mental state determines an Adept's power. If anything, GV should be weaker than he was at the end of GV1, albeit not to a huge extent, and he does get back in the groove after the intro stage.

The current multipliers even makes sense. The Sumeragi Swordsmen beat up base forms of the Seven (Jota stomped Gibril for example), and GV can still take down members of the Sumeragi Swordsmen. Afterwards, getting a power up from a Muse Shard, they were able to contend with GV, who we established hasn't been training or improving to get stronger. We can thus say the Sumeragi Swordsmen are around ~2x as strong as base Seven members, but after getting Muse Shards, the Seven members could be stronger (since the Muse Shards would be at least 2x multipliers, they could be more since they upscale from Septimal Surge).

This even makes sense in a GV3 context, since GV in that game considers Zonda and Tenjian to be, quote, "may be even more trouble than the last ones, Kirin", implying he's not sure. And this is further compounded by the fact that this English translation took liberties, as in the Japanese version, he instead says, "Indeed. They’re being used again. Sorry for the hinder, Kirin", implying they aren't that much more of a threat.

In short, keeping things as-is is fine. The multipliers work, the context makes sense since GV didn't train or improve at all between games to warrant the Sumeragi Swordsmen and the Seven to be completely different, and even in a GV3 context, GV himself doesn't think they're too much stronger.

 

[The_Smashor]

The thing is, the 2x multiplier is the only thing we have that's concrete. Otherwise it'd just be arbitrary. Plus, a ton of profiles on this wiki already use gameplay multipliers for their stuff when there isn't proof otherwise too.

We could just not use multipliers. Also, we really don't, the multiplier needs to be stated at least in a description or something, Septimal Surge has nothing.

Also, why doesn't the Sumeragi Swordsmen scale to Eden? They should in my opinion, since GV shouldn't have gotten stronger at all between GV1 and GV2, even stating at the start of GV2 that he's rusty. The Muse being in him wouldn't matter since it's never established to passively give power, only when it's activated (otherwise Joule would be so friggin' buff). GV was also depressed in-between games, and it's known that mental state determines an Adept's power. If anything, GV should be weaker than he was at the end of GV1, albeit not to a huge extent, and he does get back in the groove after the intro stage.

The Sumeragi Swordsmen have fought Eden without Mirror Shards, it makes no sense the Shards would be so sought after if they provided so insignificant of a boon in power. Also, it's not unlikely that already was on a level comparable to Eden by the end of Gunvolt 1, given he was able to fight Nova empowered by The Muse. Even if Joule was somehow resisting the machine, even Nova's first phase should be superior to a Mirror Shard's level of power. Hell, with sufficient anger, he could fight Nova's 2nd form, which even without The Muse was supposed to be his equal.

The current multipliers even makes sense. The Sumeragi Swordsmen beat up base forms of the Seven (Jota stomped Gibril for example), and GV can still take down members of the Sumeragi Swordsmen. Afterwards, getting a power up from a Muse Shard, they were able to contend with GV, who we established hasn't been training or improving to get stronger. We can thus say the Sumeragi Swordsmen are around ~2x as strong as base Seven members, but after getting Muse Shards, the Seven members could be stronger (since the Muse Shards would be at least 2x multipliers, they could be more since they upscale from Septimal Surge).

Nothing implies that GV struggled with The Seven any more or less than the Sumeragi Swordsmen. Also, I'd hardly say Gibril was being stomped, she had the advantage fairly often in that fight and even would have succeeded in her goal if it wasn't for Nova's interference.

This even makes sense in a GV3 context, since GV in that game considers Zonda and Tenjian to be, quote, "may be even more trouble than the last ones, Kirin", implying he's not sure. And this is further compounded by the fact that this English translation took liberties, as in the Japanese version, he instead says, "Indeed. They’re being used again. Sorry for the hinder, Kirin", implying they aren't that much more of a threat.

Without spoiling anything for future revisions, GV in Gunvolt 3 is a major step up from the two previous games in power. Not to mention, these weren't actually Zonda and Tenjian, but rather illusions created by Serpentine's Septima created from GV's memories, and Zonda's repeatedly stated and shown to be well above the likes of Viper and Jota, who were also illusory bosses in Gunvolt 3.

 

[Smashtwig]

Damn, I made a promise to shut up after my argument, but I guess since Smashor's doing it I should too

We could just not use multipliers. Also, we really don't, the multiplier needs to be stated at least in a description or something, Septimal Surge has nothing.

What he was saying is that there are other profiles that DON'T have that proof, the same as Septimal Surge, which was the main reason why you're making this argument

The Sumeragi Swordsmen have fought Eden without Mirror Shards, it makes no sense the Shards would be so sought after if they provided so insignificant of a boon in power. Also, it's not unlikely that already was on a level comparable to Eden by the end of Gunvolt 1, given he was able to fight Nova empowered by The Muse. Even if Joule was somehow resisting the machine, even Nova's first phase should be superior to a Mirror Shard's level of power. Hell, with sufficient anger, he could fight Nova's 2nd form, which even without The Muse was supposed to be his equal.

I get that, but- GV shouldn't suddenly get 690x stronger just after being Copen for no reason just so he can fight Nova. He's pretty pissed off (again Septima gets stronger based on emotions like anger) the whole time vs Nova- not just Phase 1 (he was pretty angry the whole time since he was on Eridu, and Nova is when he lost it). Even if he wasnt angry, Nova without a Glaive is pretty weak, sure he stomped Viper, but that was before he got Glaived up. So him fighting Nova makes sense, but are we really going to say he was pissed off for the rest of his life (which he wasn't, he was tired and depressed) so he can keep up with Eden. Unless you're Hulk, you can't be angry for THAT long.

Nothing implies that GV struggled with The Seven any more or less than the Sumeragi Swordsmen.

Okay, i don't really get that point and what it has to do with anything lol

Also, I'd hardly say Gibril was being stomped, she had the advantage fairly often in that fight and even would have succeeded in her goal if it wasn't for Nova's interference.

Stomped or no, she's still weaker than Jota, Eden needs Muse Shards to catch up and surpass them, but by 690x? I get that the Muse is powerful but GV having to jump that far without anything, the only argument being "he was angry for the rest of his life" doesn't make sense

 

[The_Smashor]

What he was saying is that there are other profiles that DON'T have that proof, the same as Septimal Surge, which was the main reason why you're making this argument

Just because a few profiles break the rules dosn't mean we can.

I get that, but- GV shouldn't suddenly get 690x stronger just after being Copen for no reason just so he can fight Nova. He's pretty pissed off (again Septima gets stronger based on emotions like anger) the whole time vs Nova- not just Phase 1 (he was pretty angry the whole time since he was on Eridu, and Nova is when he lost it). Even if he wasnt angry, Nova without a Glaive is pretty weak, sure he stomped Viper, but that was before he got Glaived up. So him fighting Nova makes sense, but are we really going to say he was pissed off for the rest of his life (which he wasn't, he was tired and depressed) so he can keep up with Eden. Unless you're Hulk, you can't be angry for THAT long.

It's video games. This shit happens in video games. Hell, this shit happens in fiction as a whole.

Okay, i don't really get that point and what it has to do with anything lol

It was in response to what someone else said

Stomped or no, she's still weaker than Jota, Eden needs Muse Shards to catch up and surpass them, but by 690x? I get that the Muse is powerful but GV having to jump that far without anything, the only argument being "he was angry for the rest of his life" doesn't make sense

GV was merged with Joule, and also gained the AB Spirits in that time. And consider, even if Joule wasn't actively buffing him with Anthem, her presence was clearly affecting him somehow, given the blue on his ponytail.

Anyways, I could buy the Swordsmen downscaling from Muse Shards given a replica Glaive in Tenjian's hands wasn't too far behind his power when using a Shard, but at the same time we need to get a good level for non-weaponized Adepts.

 

[Smashtwig]

Anyways, I could buy the Swordsmen downscaling from Muse Shards given a replica Glaive in Tenjian's hands wasn't too far behind his power when using a Shard, but at the same time we need to get a good level for non-weaponized Adepts.

We can do that, sure, Non-Weaponized has never been shown to us, best we can do is some 9-C feats, and that one Explosion guy in fleeting memories, maybe that creepy root guy addicted to SEED in Quinn's Story? Everything else is Viper's story- we've never met an Adept with tangible feats that isn't weaponized I think, so I don't think we need to deal with that yet tbh- especially because they probably aren't relevant

 

[The_Smashor]

We can do that, sure, Non-Weaponized has never been shown to us, best we can do is some 9-C feats, and that one Explosion guy in fleeting memories, maybe that creepy root guy addicted to SEED in Quinn's Story? Everything else is Viper's story- we've never met an Adept with tangible feats that isn't weaponized I think, so I don't think we need to deal with that yet tbh- especially because they probably aren't relevant

Also Milas

 

[Smashtwig]

Don't recall that, which Drama CD?

 

[The_Smashor]

Don't recall that, which Drama CD?

Milas has an 8-A feat when he presumably isn't armored.

 

[Smashtwig]

Milas has an 8-A feat when he presumably isn't armored.

oh that lol