Azrael (Discworld) Upgrade

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yeah, see:

"It's just the sugar," she said.
"That's all. It's fuel. And do stop going on about it! Look, we can't just let you die to get—"
Yes, we can, said Lobsang.
"Why?" said Susan, shocked.
Because I have seen everything.
"Would you like to tell everyone?" said Susan, reverting to Classroom Sarcasm.
"We'd all like to know how this ends!"
You misunderstand the meaning of "everything."
- Thief of Time
"Think like this," he said at last. "Think of everything. It's an everyday word. But 'everything' means…everything. It's a much bigger word than 'universe.' And everything contains all possible things that can happen at all possible times in all possible worlds. Don't look for complete solutions in any one of them. Sooner or later, everything causes everything else."
- Thief of Time
'Aha! Well done. You've learned something!' Lobsang drifted closer. 'You cannot believe the things that I have seen since last I saw you,' he said. 'Words cannot describe them. I have seen worlds nesting within worlds, like those dolls they carve in Uberwald. I have heard the music of the years. I know more than I can ever understand. But I do not know the Fifth Surprise. It is a trick, a conundrum... a test.'
- Thief of Time
"Yes…even trying to think in a mere four dimensions is a terrible effort. I'm sorry. Even to hold in my mind the concept of something called 'now' is hard. You thought I was mostly human. I'm mostly not." He sighed. "If only I could tell you what everything looks like to me…it's so beautiful."
- Thief of Time
These quotes make it clear that time is higher-dimensional and applies to the whole multiverse.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Time as in the physical personification of time? I don't believe she's high-end Tier 1, unless one of the books stated she was above the Auditors and I missed it. I'd think at absolute most she'd be comparable to them (which I guess is high-end Tier 1 is you consider 1-B that), but I don't remember such a thing being clarified or implied. I just remember her being >4-D.

Edit: Actually, I do believe history itself was referred to as 18-D once, as well, but I'd need to find the quote. That would make Time 1-B.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

>18-D.

The Discworld Multiverse has infinite levels of infinity and infinite dimensions.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

That doesn't apply to Time, though. Or anyone aside from the Old High Ones. Even the Auditors are explicitly 18-D.

I don't even remember explicit mention of infinite higher dimensions (which would have been helpful in the OP), and "infinite infinities" when applied directly to the multiverse was for number of infinite universes.

It's quite likely something that scales to the OHO, but not Time, unless there is some direct quote stating this.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No, Infinite Infinities is very clearly Cantor / Aleph sets. All the quotes above are from "The Science of Discworld III", in the part which discusses the multiverse.

Look at the quotes above. Time aplies across the entire multiverse. Literally everything. And the Auditors aren't explicitly 18-D, they just mention that something makes sense in 18 Dimensional thinking.

The book also discusses Tegmark's theories at length as well. All relating to the infinity of the multiverse.

 

[KarmodF]

I love how an admin is using a Space battles thread while in the Halo threads those were disspised a lot.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It helps that I personally know the person making that thread and knows that they are trustworthy and the quotes actually say what they say.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yes, said quotes are applied to the entire cosmological structure and the things that govern the multiverse in its entirety (the Old High Ones).

Time is never said to be infinite-dimensional.

"And everything contains all possible things that can happen at all possible times in all possible worlds. Don't look for complete solutions in any one of them. Sooner or later, everything causes everything else.""

^This quote is not describing Time as infinite-dimensional, but spanning across "all possible times in all possible worlds". That is very different.

Thief of Time also mentions history itself as 18-dimensional instead of 4-dimensional.

""He broke history and repaired it," said Susan. "Cause and cure. That makes no sense!"
"Not in four dimensions," said Unity. "In eighteen, it's all perfectly clear.""

The Auditors would not be randomly specified to think in 18 dimensions if they were infinite-dimensional. There is no reason for that.

Like I said, I am not denying High 1-B as something that could be ascribed to the full scale of reality, but I see zero reason to scale it to Time without direct statements when there are others which suggest otherwise.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Not gonna lie though, this book is a pretty good way to teach someone how infinities and multiverses actually work.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

It helps that good ol' Terry P. actually tends to use stuff like that properly.

 

[Antvasima]

I really liked Terry Pratchett's Discworld books, and was sad when he died. I would also recommend "The Long Earth" books, that were a collaboration with Stephen Baxter.

Anyway, would you be interested in upgrading the Azrael profile to High 1-B then Matthew? Proper justifications/explanations should be included of course.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Azrael as one of the Old High Ones can probably either be High 1-B or 1-A but I have other series that have my full attention.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. The Marvel and Elder Scrolls updates are prioritised, yes.

Would you be fine with if Azathoth or Hykuu update the page based on the above discussion?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Ant

I can probably do it, but I have a few things to take care of, first.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the help.

 

[Hykuu]

Wait, will the upgrade be possibly high 1-B or just high 1-B?

 

[Antvasima]

Just High 1-B I think.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I'm fine with either of those. Whatever's decided.

 

[Hykuu]

So who is editing the page lol

 

[Antvasima]

Azathoth, I think.

 

[Hykuu]

So should this thread be closed or?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I'd like to know what I should write, though.

I could always just post what I was planning here anyway and then write it on the page.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, you would have to summarise the evidence above, and possibly place a longer explanation with quotes in a notes section near the bottom of the page.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

How about something along the lines of "High Hyperverse level (Azrael is a member of the Old High Ones, who control the absolute entirety of the Discworld multiverse on all possible levels. The full extent of the multiverse, like Cantor's infinite sets, is suggested to be composed of infinite degrees of ever-larger infinities, along with infinite sets of infinite possible universes.)"?

I don't know if I'm supposed to put "possibly", "likely", or nothing in front of this, but like I said, I'm fine with anything.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I think just going with High 1-B is fine.

 

[Antvasima]

I also think that seems fine and that "likely" is unnecessary.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I can add that to the profile, if it's accepted.

 

[Antvasima]

I personally think that you can add it.

 

[Hykuu]

Go ahead.

You can close this thread now btw.

 

[Antvasima]

Let's wait until the changes have been performed.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Done.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you. I will close this thread then.