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Azrael (Discworld) Upgrade

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Hykuu

Hykuu

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https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/430385027621322758/465979852038864907/IMG_20180709_185955.jpg As we all know, Azrael is the embodiment of Death of the entire multiverse, every level of existence, etc.

The Discworld multiverse is not only infinite, and limited to 18 dimensions,but contains endless levels of infinity and all possible worlds.

  • The Science of Discworld III: Darwin's Watch said:
Ponder sighed. `What was it you were thinking about, sir?' `Lots of Darwins get through this voyage, right?' `Yes. An infinite number.'

`Well, in that case-' the Archchancellor began.

`But Hex did say it's a much smaller infinite number that the number that don't,' said Ponder. `And that's an even smaller number than the very large infinity when he never goes on the voyage. And the number of infinities where he's never even born is-'

`Infinite?' Ridcully asked.

`At least,' said Ponder. `However, there is a positive side to this.' `Do tell, Stibbons.'

`Well, sir, once Origin is published, the number of universes in which it is published will also become infinite in an infinitely small space of time. So even though the book may only be written once, it will, by human standards, immediately have been written in untold billions of adjacent universes.'

`An infinite number, I suspect?' said Ridcully.

`Yes, sir. Sorry about that. Infinity is a bit tricky.'

`You can't imagine half of it, for one thing.'

`That's true. It's not really a number at all. You can't get to it starting from one. And that's the problem, sir. Hex is right, the oddest number in the multiverse isn't infinity, it's one. Just one Charles Darwin writing The Origin of Species ... it's impossible.' *


  • THE WIZARDS ARE NOT ONLY grappling with the apparent absurdities of `quantum', their catch-all phrase for advanced physics and cosmology, but with the explosive philosophical/ mathematical concept of infinity.
In their own way, they have rediscovered one of the great insights of nineteenth-century mathematics: that there can be many infinities, some of them bigger than others.

If this sounds ridiculous, it is.*


  • The Science of Discworld III: Darwin's Watch said:
As well as the mathematics of infinity, the wizards are also contending with its physics. Is the Roundworld universe finite or infinite? Is it true that in any infinite universe, not only can anything happen, but everything must? Could there be an infinite universe consisting entirely of chairs ... immobile, unchanging, wildly unexciting? The world of the infinite is paradoxical, or so it seems at first, but we shouldn't let the apparent paradoxes put us off. If we keep a clear head, we can steer our way through the paradoxes, and turn the infinite into a reliable thinking aid.*


  • The Science of Discworld III: Darwin's Watch said:
But in the 1880s Cantor was thinking about actual infinities, and he opened up a veritable Pandora's box of ever-larger infinities. He called them trans-finite numbers, and he stumbled across them when he was working in a hallowed, traditional area of analysis. It was really hard, technical stuff, and it led him into previously uncharted byways. Musing deeply on the nature of these things, Cantor became diverted from his work in his entirely respectable area of analysis, and started thinking about something much more difficult.*

  • The Science of Discworld III:
Code: 
Darwin's Watch said:
There is no end to the list of Cantorian infinities. There is no 'hyperinfinity' that is bigger than all other infinities.*

  • "This, then, is Cantor's Paradise: an entirely new number system of alephs, of infinities beyond measure, never-ending - in a very strong sense of `never'. It arises entirely naturally from one simple principle: that the technique of `matching' is all you need to set up the logical foundations of arithmetic. Most working mathematicians now agree with Hilbert, and Cantor's initially astonishing ideas have been woven into the very fabric of mathematics."*
In conclusion: Azrael should be upgraded to High 1-B as there do exist infinite degrees of infinity within the verse.
 
Seems legit, although you can argue for Azrael being the literal end of every concept, High 1-B status is still nice.

This case is similar to Dark Tower at least.

Definitely deserves more attention.
 
I am very uncertain about this, as talking about a real world theory is not the same as talking about verifiable proof, or narrator level definitive facts. It is probably best if you ask Azathoth to evaluate this.
 
I understand your point but,

They aren't merely mentioning it. In some of the quotes I presented it shows that mathematicians have agreed cantor's infinity and hilbert's space does indeed apply to the fabric of mathematics in their universe.

And the first quote directly mentions the infinites applying to the multiverse's cosmology
 
Maybe, maybe not, but the 18-dimensional space seems like a more reliable reference.

You should probably ask Azathoth to comment here.
 
I agree with Ant that it's a bit hard to confirm how exactly this applies to the multiverse when talking more about general sciences (as well as universes as opposed to higher planes of reality), but I don't see why something like "1-B, possibly higher" would be off the table.

I don't remember where exactly the Auditors were placed in comparison to Azrael, though I do recall them being implied to be on a similar plane of existence, so I do think something like this is probably safer if the Auditors were explicitly 18-dimensional entities.
 
Like I said though most of the quotes are directly talking about levels of infinity across the multiverse, in one of the quotes I posted Hilbert space was directly mentioned as applying to the actual multiverse

I don't recall that and it seems inconsistent, in the whole context of embodying death.
 
  • "Old High Ones, the. Only very obliquely referred to in the Discworld religions. Such piecemeal references as have been discovered suggest that there are eight 'entities' that oversee the universe, although 'oversee' is far too strong a word. There is no single word that really does explain their role, which seems to be to observe in a dynamic way, in order for the observed events to be able to happen. It might be simpler to say that the universe exists because they believe in it. They are not gods ― from their point of view, gods are only a slightly more troublesome version of human beings. They are far above the AUDITORS OF REALITY, who are their executive arm. The names of seven of them, if they have names, have not been revealed. The eighth is AZRAEL."*
The high old ones are FAR above the auditors, lol.
 
Yes, my main issue is just that in the instance in which these infinities are actually applied to the multiverse, it is referring to the number of realities, not higher levels of existence. The rest of the time it's used in more abstract terms.

I mention this because, unless I'm remembering incorrectly, the Old High Ones (the group Azrael is a part of) are the ones who actually employ the Auditors, who act on their behalf (despite kinda...not doing what they want, sometimes). They're clearly not as powerful (hence why I used similar plane of existence and not "similar power"), but I don't think they're an entire infinite layers of infinity removed from the Old High Ones.
 
@Azathoth

What do you think about "At least 1-B, possibly High 1-B" for Azrael?
 
@Ant

Could work, but I'd like to know if there are actually places where infinite-dimensional hilbert space is used or Cantor's infinite sets are used in reference to higher reality as opposed to number of universes.

Like I said, it doesn't seem totally off the table.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
Yes, my main issue is just that in the instance in which these infinities are actually applied to the multiverse, it is referring to the number of realities, not higher levels of existence. The rest of the time it's used in more abstract terms.

I mention this because, unless I'm remembering incorrectly, the Old High Ones (the group Azrael is a part of) are the ones who actually employ the Auditors, who act on their behalf (despite kinda...not doing what they want, sometimes). They're clearly not as powerful (hence why I used similar plane of existence and not "similar power"), but I don't think they're an entire infinite layers of infinity removed from the Old High Ones.
Click to expand...
The quotes do indeed mention the multiverse extending to conceptual infinity and hilbert space, also they were talking about higher infinites, not in the sense that marvel uses transinfinity for the amount of universes in its cosmology

The auditor's are sort of how the old ones interact with lower planes of existence without the usage of avatars The entire thing is that the old ones are basically infinitely greater and above everything in the verse, its possible the writer was inspired by the outer gods since most of his work was inspired by H.P lovecraft
 
Oh my bad your comment didn't load

I'm not saying Hilbert space is apart of set theory (if it is, great) But both were mentioned in the scans i posted
 
Yes, but I'm asking if there's a part where quotes like these two are used directly in comparison to greater infinities in terms of higher realities or some such.

"But in the 1880s Cantor was thinking about actual infinities, and he opened up a veritable Pandora's box of ever-larger infinities. He called them trans-finite numbers, and he stumbled across them when he was working in a hallowed, traditional area of analysis. It was really hard, technical stuff, and it led him into previously uncharted byways. Musing deeply on the nature of these things, Cantor became diverted from his work in his entirely respectable area of analysis, and started thinking about something much more difficult."

"This, then, is Cantor's Paradise: an entirely new number system of alephs, of infinities beyond measure, never-ending - in a very strong sense of `never'. It arises entirely naturally from one simple principle: that the technique of `matching' is all you need to set up the logical foundations of arithmetic. Most working mathematicians now agree with Hilbert, and Cantor's initially astonishing ideas have been woven into the very fabric of mathematics."'

I ask because when used in the first quote, it's explicitly in relation to the number of infinite realities, and is somewhere between "At least 2-A" and "High 2-A" via uncountably infinite universes (infinite universes where Darwin finishes the voyage + infinite universes where he doesn't + infinite unierses where he never even goes on the voyage + infinite universes where he's never even born and so on).

"But Hex did say it's a much smaller infinite number that the number that don't,' said Ponder. `And that's an even smaller number than the very large infinity when he never goes on the voyage. And the number of infinities where he's never even born is-"

This would help solidify High 1-B as opposed to it just being a possibility.
 
I agree that it's a possibility, and that something like "At least 1-B, possibly High 1-B" is usable.

I just want to know if there's some kind of quote that directly compares Cantor's infinites to higher levels of reality within the multiverse, as that would remove the need for the "At least 1-B, possibly".
 
  • "Most working mathematicians now agree with Hilbert, and Cantor's initially astonishing ideas have been woven into the very fabric of mathematics."*"
  • "THE WIZARDS ARE NOT ONLY grappling with the apparent absurdities of `quantum', their catch-all phrase for advanced physics and cosmology, but with the explosive philosophical/ mathematical concept of infinity.*"
 
@Matt

I'd be really interested to see that, actually.

Assuming this is for guys like the Old High Ones, who explicitly govern the multiverse.
 
Time being within the higher-ends of Tier 2 always seemed kind of like a given. Wasn't he/she/it beyond Death (the one who appears like the Grim Reaper), anyway? I remember that her personification wasn't powered by belief, at the least.
 
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