Assorted Lifting Strength Discussion Thread

[KLOL506]

I already contacted a bunch of calc group members before this topic got brought up so let's wait for 'em.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I am against stopping something with a punch being lifting strength. It is more just matching or surpassing their impulse (which is mass x velocity). So you can just match it with pure velocity difference without it being a form of lifting strength.

 

[KLOL506]

If the punch is rapid and the character shows no sign of pushing it back afterwards, sure.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

I feel like something charging or coming at you at full speed and then a punch being able to both halt it and then send it backwards could scale?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

It would break the laws of physics if the punch isn't rapid. We do not count stuff like that and you know it. Because we have stuff like ppl poking lightly and nuking planets. The poke had neither speed (light poke) nor mass (mass of a finger) yet it still caused that much destruction. Fiction just makes striking strength appear out of nowhere, not a reason to say it's lifting strength.

 

[KLOL506]

Again, it wouldn't count as lifting strength if there is no pushing back over a elongated period.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I feel like something charging or coming at you at full speed and then a punch being able to both halt it and then send it backwards could scale?

Nope. Unless the feat is as people said above in the thread:

"Places his fist on the object than pushes it back"

So the idea is, the fist should have no velocity when making contact with the object, if it as velocity when punching it's just striking strength.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I'd say vegeto here makes for an exellent example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0B9rfVFRXa4&t=97s

When he holds the energy ball and pushes it back by walking, that's LS. The moment he kicks it, that's striking strength.

 

[KLOL506]

Something like Vegito but the punch is used instead of the grab to stop it (It isn't sent flying or anything), then the pushing starts.

Something like this

 

[Firephoenixearl]

That's lifting strength yes.

 

[KLOL506]

That's exactly what I wanted to express in the first place.

If it is like this, then it should count.

 

[Therefir]

Didn't we had this kind of discussion not long ago and agreed that punching heavy objects was actually harder than simply pushing them, and therefore, it should count as a LS feat? The only argument against it was that these feats were supposedly inconsistent within fiction, like a character punching a building but then struggling to lift something lighter, but that just mean those feats were outliers or anti-feats, depending on the context.

As for All Might and Deku's feat, it should absolutely count as a LS feat, as they not only stopped the cube, but also overpowered Wolfram telekinetically pushing the cube and holding it together.

 

[KLOL506]

Oh wait, I completely forgot about that.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Didn't we had this kind of discussion not long ago and agreed that punching heavy objects was actually harder than simply pushing them, and therefore, it should count as a LS feat?

What's the logic from the reason to the conclusion?

"It is harder therefore it's LS" doesn't seem like good reasoning.

It can't be Lifting Strength if it's a simple punch because the time frame is too small resulting in just laws of impulses taking place. It's like saying a car has lifting strength cus if moving at high speeds it can stop a truck that's moving at slower speeds.

 

[DMUA]

Yeah.

.... Again, why is a strike scaling automatically to the ability to lift when they are very frequently not the same thing?

Goku's 40 Ton weights... I swear I had more specific examples but I haven't done this in awhile

 

[DMUA]

Actually, hang on

take the infamous Chris "I will yeet this Boulder" redfield

Just trying to push the Boulder didn't do much of anything, showing a clear limitation in his ability to exert a constant force to lift or push it.

He solves this by holding it in place, then punching it again and again to add sudden spikes of force, slowly overcoming inertia that he normally can't.

Yet here we're assuming the ability to punch a thing really hard means have the strength to lift something of that level of weight, despite factors such as acceleration, how different muscles can be used, and fiction generally being incredibly wack and not doing the basic math to say that someone capable of blowing up the entire universe should be able to do more than just pull a cart stacked with weights around.

 

[Jasonsith]

Newton's first law states that every object will remain at rest or in uniform motion in a straight line unless compelled to change its state by the action of an external force. So the lifting strength demonstrated in RE 5 should be equal to the lifting strength equivalent to the force required to overcome the rock's friction against the floor.

Then, it is another issue talking about whether or how AP translates to lifting strength.

Like, if some Nintendo mad man (said by DarkDragonMedeus to be "Sony CEO") shoots a missile as an attempt to obliterate a building owned by Sega (while the values of mass of the missile, the missile travel speed and acceleration as well as the time to stop the missile to zero speed can be properly obtained), just for Sanshiro Segata to catch it and steer it away - what is the lifting strength of Sanshiro Segata?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Newton's first law states that you need force to stop or create movement. But it doesn't state that "whether you push something or punch the F outta it, it doesn't matter".

1 is using your actual strength to do something. The other is using speed to generate force.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@Jason, a minor thing, that was the CEO of Sony that launched the missile, not Nintendo in that commercial.

But anyway, the Goku struggling to lift 40 tons was just an obvious PIS given the superior lifting strength feats seen even in Dragon Ball saga; though, it's best to keep everyone beyond that Unknow. However, I do agree that if you punch a giant object to topple it, keep in mind that there is a lot more momentum in a punch that is supposed to be absent in a lift. Even IRL, there are plenty of people who use momentum to throw people 5x larger than they are despite not even being built to lift their own body weight. Also, casually blocking a super strong punch is technically a lifting strength feat I should note, but there's no way to reliable calculate those without resorting to Calc Stacking.

 

[KLOL506]

Like I said, the punch alone is not the be-all, end-all. You still need to push the object back gradually like in the videos I just showed, where the punches collide and they get into a wrestling match to push back the object (Or rather, punch), or like the metal block feat where they pushed back against Wolfram's telekinesis and the giant metal block itself.

 

[DMUA]

That's not necessarily how these feats go

If they punch it to push it back, it shouldn't apply, nor should acceleration apply if they just punch it and it halts, before they then push it.

I'm also pretty sure the All Might and Deku feat is just adding frames for dramatic effect, since them actually halting the momentum and then having to push it wouldn't work without either solid ground to stand on, or the ability to fly, which they don't have.

... actually, looking at the feat itself, they don't push it back at all, they just blow it up... then, jetson themselves at Wolfram?

Anime I guess.

But anyway, the Goku struggling to lift 40 tons was just an obvious PIS given the superior lifting strength feats seen even in Dragon Ball saga

Dragon Ball is generally an exposition that neither Toriyama nor Toei know what a Kilogram is, considering that Low 6-Bs have their power significantly restrained by them putting on like, 200 total. Ultimately, lifting strength is definitely treated way differently than striking strength there.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

If they punch it to push it back, it shouldn't apply, nor should acceleration apply if they just punch it and it halts, before they then push it.

I'm also pretty sure the All Might and Deku feat is just adding frames for dramatic effect, since them actually halting the momentum and then having to push it wouldn't work without either solid ground to stand on, or the ability to fly, which they don't have.

... actually, looking at the feat itself, they don't push it back at all, they just blow it up... then, jetson themselves at Wolfram?

If they push it with their fist (not a punch) it should apply cus they're still pushing. This for example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fePEwnKUUV4#t=2m22s

As for MHA that's true, it does not apply. They destroy it instead of pushing it.

 

[DMUA]

yeah, but I can't think of any actual lifting feats where that happens

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I can't think of any either, but just wanted to clarify on what KLOL meant.

 

[Antvasima]

So what do we need to do here?

 

[KLOL506]

The Hulk stopping the Levianthan is an obvious one (Hulk's punch doesn't fully stop the Leviathan, he has to push it back even more with his fist afterwards).

Then there's the Kiryu vs Daigo where they push each other's punches (Or rather, fists). This is how I view the whole "Halting and pushing stuff with punches" thingamajig.

And then there's Kiryu stopping a bull and Saejima stopping a car and briefly pinning it down for a few seconds before letting it pass (But in this case they grab and don't necessarily punch but the mechanic's the same I guess)

 

[Therefir]

I'm also pretty sure the All Might and Deku feat is just adding frames for dramatic effect, since them actually halting the momentum and then having to push it wouldn't work without either solid ground to stand on, or the ability to fly, which they don't have.

... actually, looking at the feat itself, they don't push it back at all, they just blow it up... then, jetson themselves at Wolfram?

Anime I guess.

No, they can move in the air by propelling themselves with wind pressure, which is why they have Pseudo-Flight in their profiles.

 

[Therefir]

As for MHA that's true, it does not apply. They destroy it instead of pushing it.

Before they destroyed the cube, Wolfram was actively pushing it back with his telekinesis, we can clearly see him struggling.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Before they destroyed the cube, Wolfram was actively pushing it back with his telekinesis, we can clearly see him struggling.

That's just it being dramatic. No matter your argument you don't bust stuff with lifting strength.

 

[Therefir]

What is this "dramatic" thing you are talking about? I'm arguing with is happening in the scene, not some baseless headcanon.

If we're are able to measure the force of these feats, then they are applicable to lifting strength.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

No matter your argument you don't bust stuff with lifting strength.

This is the argument.

 

[Therefir]

This is the argument.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Hahahaha, ok i did not expect that meme.

Anyway we're just gonna get off topic continuing like this. So let's leave Midoriya alone till someone makes a specific thread for that.

 

[DMUA]

What is this "dramatic" thing you are talking about? I'm arguing with is happening in the scene, not some baseless headcanon.

It's common to exaggerate an impact in a way that makes no sense if you really thinking about it

Doing a mid air punch when your ability to fly is based on flicking power and somehow still staying in air to keep pushing a cube doesn't make sense, it just looks better in animation

 

[KLOL506]

Come on guys, keep the BNHA stuff for another thread

 

[Antvasima]

So what do we need to do here?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Im not sure tbh.

We seem to have more people in agreement that "Punching things isn't lifting strength". But i am not sure what the conclusions regarding the rest of the points in the OP are. I was just called here for the "punching = LS" part

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. We cannot scale striking strength to lifting strength just because it mostly makes sense by real world standards, no. Fiction is too inconsistent for that to be applied uniformly.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Okay. We cannot scale striking strength to lifting strength just because it mostly makes sense by real world standards

I mean it doesn't really. Basic physics says that those 2 are not the same thing on any level cus 1 uses muscle strength the other uses speed to generate force. They use completely different things.

 

[KLOL506]

Yeah a simple punch sending things flying is in no way gonna count as LS if you don't then start pushing the stuff you're punching like you're in a wrestling match.