Ash vs. Red: True Final Battle for World Champion! (5-0-0)

[Kingofwolves999]

Question popped in my head after watching the last bits of the anime. Surprised this hasn’t been done yet.

Ash’s Journey Team

Red’s Gen 7 Team

Speed Equalized

Fight takes place at the Master’s 8 Tournament

Both have some knowledge of the others team (as far as having seen the other fight through the tournament)

All gimmicks allowed. Red can use all Mega’s.

Ash Ketchum from Pallet Town

vs.

Red from Pallet Town

Age-old Pokémon debate finally settled. Who deserves to be world champ?


TEAMS
Ash:

Pikachu (Gigantamax and Z-Move - Electric)
Moves: Thunderbolt (can be amped by Ash and Pikachu’s bond to go past their limits), Iron Tail, Quick Attack, Electroweb, [Counter Shield]

Dragonite (Dragon/Flying)
Moves: Dragon Dance, Dragon Claw, Hurricane, Draco Meteor

Gengar (Gigantamax- Ghost/Poison)
Moves: Sludge Bomb, Shadow Ball, Dazzling Gleam, Will-O-Wisp

Lucario (Mega-Fighting/Steel)
Moves: Bullet Punch, Reversal, Double Team, Aura Sphere (can be amped by Ash’s Aura to become stronger)

Sirfetch’d (Fighting)
Moves: Brutal Swing, Fury Cutter, Meteor Assault, Detect

Dracovish (Dragon/Water)
Moves: Water Gun, Ice Fang, Fishious Rend, Dragon Rush

Red:

Pikachu (Electric)
Moves: Volt Tackle, Quick Attack, Light Screen, Nuzzle

Charizard (Fire/Flying) (Mega-Fire/Dragon)
Moves: Will-O-Wisp, Fire Blast, Air Slash, Focus Blast

Blastoise (Mega-Water)
Moves: Hydro Pump, Flash Cannon, Ice Beam, Dark Pulse

Venusaur (Mega-Grass/Poison)
Moves: Bulldoze, Leech Seed, Leaf Storm, Sludge Bomb

Snorlax (Normal)
Moves: Crunch, Heavy Slam, High Horsepower, Body Slam

Lapras (Water/Ice)
Moves: Surf, Blizzard, Ice Shard, Psychic

VOTES:
Ash: 5 (CloverDragon03, Fezzih_007, Ret_of_Guys, MintyBoi1, Undylan)

Red:

Draw:

 

[StekFence]

Ash seems stronger, being > Leon > Cynthia = creation pokemon, while red is = S/m protag = creation Pokémon.

 

[StekFence]

He’s also way smarter in battle it seems.

 

[TheGatememer]

Think Elio/Selene should scale above the CT, since they defeated Cyrus, who commands both Dialga and Palkia

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Think Elio/Selene should scale above the CT, since they defeated Cyrus, who commands both Dialga and Palkia

True, but in the same vein, they defeated Red. So he would scale to Cyrus not exactly above, which is also where Ash is scaling.

They should be very equal in terms of AP. If there is a gap from either side, it’s not incredibly high and is based more on “x managed to beat y” than something that would make one inherently weaker than the other.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Bump

 

[noninho]

So he would scale to Cyrus not exactly above, which is also where Ash is scaling.

He does with mega
But how is mega comparable to dynamax?

Excluding this, Red is for sure less reckless and more experient than Ash so... by this standard he'd take it, the problem is really in the question above

 

[Kingofwolves999]

He does with mega
But how is mega comparable to dynamax?

Excluding this, Red is for sure less reckless and more experient than Ash so... by this standard he'd take it, the problem is really in the question above

Dynamax and mega seem comparable enough to not much matter. A mega can beat a dynamax and a dynamax can beat a mega. Like Ash’s Lucario which beat Cynthia’s Dynamax Togekiss. Pikachu seems outlier to this as whether it’s Dynamax or Z-Move, it kinda deletes whatever is in front of it. Ash’s Z-Move in particular seems to be way higher in power than anything else since it’s directly fueled by his and Pikachu’s bond. Same goes with his Mega Lucario and Ash’s Aura making it stronger when they connect.

Recklessness has also led Ash to many victories, specifically against experienced enemies. And I’d definitely hesitate to say Red has been through as many gauntlets, quests, adventures and challenging fights as Ash despite the age gap. His unorthodox fighting style and intelligence is why he has gotten where he is after all, so this isn’t a simple age gap win given Ash’s skill has outpaced that innumerable times in the past.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Also in case people don’t know, the teams are:

Ash:

Pikachu (Gigantamax and Z-Move - Electric)
Moves: Thunderbolt, Iron Tail, Quick Attack, Electroweb

Dragonite (Dragon/Flying)
Moves: Dragon Dance, Dragon Claw, Hurricane, Draco Meteor

Gengar (Gigantamax- Ghost/Poison)
Moves: Sludge Bomb, Shadow Ball, Dazzling Gleam, Will-O-Wisp

Lucario (Mega-Fighting/Steel)
Moves: Bullet Punch, Reversal, Double Team, Aura Sphere (can be amped by Ash’s Aura to become stronger)

Sirfetch’d (Fighting)
Moves: Brutal Swing, Fury Cutter, Meteor Assault, Detect

Dracovish (Dragon/Water)
Moves: Water Gun, Ice Fang, Fishious Rend, Dragon Rush

Red:

Pikachu (Electric)
Moves: Volt Tackle, Quick Attack, Light Screen, Nuzzle

Charizard (Fire/Flying) (Mega-Fire/Dragon)
Moves: Will-O-Wisp, Fire Blast, Air Slash, Focus Blast

Blastoise (Mega-Water)
Moves: Hydro Pump, Flash Cannon, Ice Beam, Dark Pulse

Venusaur (Mega-Grass/Poison)
Moves: Bulldoze, Leech Seed, Leaf Storm, Sludge Bomb

Snorlax (Normal)
Moves: Crunch, Heavy Slam, High Horsepower, Body Slam

Lapras (Water/Ice)
Moves: Surf, Blizzard, Ice Shard, Psychic

Adding to OP

 

[CloverDragon03]

Ash sweep

 

[noninho]

idk, gamewise Red'd win and i hope very much he can win this lmao
don't know pokémon outside of the usual games so i don't think i can say much around here

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Bump

 

[CloverDragon03]

Ash has much better versatility with all the gimmicks he’s got access to, plus the fact that he’s known for his out-of-the-box thinking when it comes to battling. He might also have better scaling but I’m not too sure about that one. Even still, I think Ash takes this much more often than not, so I’m voting Ash

 

[TheGatememer]

Pokémon masters states that Red is the strongest trainer in history, and the game has Ash, so Red is stronger

 

[CloverDragon03]

Pokémon masters states that Red is the strongest trainer in history, and the game has Ash, so Red is stronger

Well that doesn't even work because Ash seems to tie with the player in battle and the player is able to defeat Red. Ash's prowess even impresses Red (though the two never fought in Masters sadly)

 

[TheGatememer]

Well that doesn't even work because Ash seems to tie with the player in battle and the player is able to defeat Red. Ash's prowess even impresses Red (though the two never fought in Masters sadly)

Well, strongest doesn't necessarily mean unbeatable. iirc, the only reason the player won is through the power of friendship or something.

Either way, not on the profiles, so it's unusable for the matchup anyhow

 

[noninho]

PLEASE someone get an argument for Red

 

[CloverDragon03]

There is none. Ash is simply better

 

[LaserPrecision]

There is none. Ash is simply better

Gold better than both

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

There is none. Ash is simply better

truuuuuuuu

 

[TheGatememer]

Since you said all gimmicks allowed, do Red’s pokemon have their alternate movesets?

Also, what stops Red from spamming full restores

 

[noninho]

Since you said all gimmicks allowed, do Red’s pokemon have their alternate movesets?

Also, what stops Red from spamming full restores

Oh yeah, and Red's pikachu is buffed by his item

 

[CloverDragon03]

Since you said all gimmicks allowed, do Red’s pokemon have their alternate movesets?

That’s not a gimmick so no

Also, what stops Red from spamming full restores

Y’all really want Red to win

I don’t believe Full Restores come up in VS matches between Trainers. Though in Red’s case, he has a few. Factoring those in, that’s a potential win-con - but Ash’s Pokémon have really good stamina (particularly his Pikachu)

Oh yeah, and Red's pikachu is buffed by his item

50% boost yeah, but Ash’s Pikachu has its Z-Move… which is literally so strong that it bypassed Electivire’s Motor Drive ability (which gives it immunity to Electric-type moves) and defeated it

 

[TheGatememer]

Y’all really want Red to win

If ash is really a Pokémon master, why doesn’t he spam full restores?

 

[CloverDragon03]

If ash is really a Pokémon master, why doesn’t he spam full restores?

Because Pokémon anime

You don’t see Origins Red spamming Full Restores either, do you? Not my fault Ash is simply better

 

[Emerald]

Ash seems to have a bigger scaling chain and he's smarter and can pull out better strategies

 

[TheGatememer]

Because Pokémon anime

You don’t see Origins Red spamming Full Restores either, do you? Not my fault Ash is simply better

Cause origins red is mid

 

[CloverDragon03]

Anyways voting Ash

 

[CloverDragon03]

Also Ash actually very much has the better scaling chain:

Red’s is: Red ~ Elio/Selene > Cyrus ~ Dialga/Palkia

Ash’s is: Ash > Leon > Cynthia ~ Dialga/Palkia

And in addition, I believe in Red’s case, Dialga/Palkia was in a Poké Ball (which somewhat limits it if I’m not mistaken)

 

[TheGatememer]

So basically, Ash seems to have an edge in strategy/skill + AP, while Red has an edge in survivability and experience

 

[TheGatememer]

Also Ash actually very much has the better scaling chain:

Red’s is: Red ~ Elio/Selene > Cyrus ~ Dialga/Palkia

Ash’s is: Ash > Leon > Cynthia ~ Dialga/Palkia

And in addition, I believe in Red’s case, Dialga/Palkia was in a Poké Ball (which somewhat limits it if I’m not mistaken)

Would Ash really scale above Leon? Maybe with Pikachu’s final thunderbolt, but he was on the verge of losing before Pikachu had his whole “power of friendship” moment.

I’d say It’s more like Leon ~ Ash < Pikachu Friendship Thunderbolt or something

 

[CloverDragon03]

Probably yeah, though I don’t think Pikachu was amped there, it was just using everything it had left

 

[CloverDragon03]

Also yes, being in a Poké Ball limits Dialga/Palkia’s power, while the Red Chain doesn’t.

Cynthia scales to Dialga/Palkia with the Red Chain, Elio/Selene scales to Dialga/Palkia in a Poké Ball

 

[TheGatememer]

Probably yeah, though I don’t think Pikachu was amped there, it was just using everything it had left

Yeah, I didn’t really mean Pikachu was amped, more so that in normal battle, Pikachu can’t access that kind of power without being pushed to the limit.

 

[StekFence]

experience

doubt, ash basically played every mainline Pokémon game in a row.

 

[TheGatememer]

doubt, ash basically played every mainline Pokémon game in a row.

I meant in age, since Ash is still (word i cant say)ing 10 for some reason, while Red has been a trainer for decades.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Okay but Ash’s combat intelligence is such that an advanced supercomputer was completely unable to comprehend it

So like… I think this is kind of a case of quality vs. quantity. Red’s been a trainer for longer, but Ash still ends up with the better intelligence/skill feats

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Bump

 

[MintyBoi1]

Seems like Ash has the battle IQ and shenanigans to win this

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Bump