Arrowverse Revisions

[ByAsura]

Scales to Season 1 Flash, Arrow's cast, Mirakuru Soldiers, etc.

Lifting Strength
In Three Ghosts, Slade Wilson broke a rifle in half. Context is important here because this is Slade's main lifting strength feat, but he was amped with Mirakuru and clearly not at his normal level of power; before breaking the rifle, he sent soldiers flying with his attack and punched through this man's chest.

However, Oliver Queen, along with many Arrow characters, is able to snap necks with relative ease. So everyone should still be Class 1, just with a specific value. I'm not sure if this would scale to The Flash, since Oliver held him dow and is implied to be more of a heavy lifter (note that he was angry due to metahuman influence, so it may not have been entirely truthful)

• Barry Allen: Absolutely. So you can train, lift weights, climb that stupid barn till your heart explodes, but you'll never be as fast as I am. You'll never be what I am, and that's got to hurt your rock-hard pride, Ollie.

That chain feat could also potentially be in the Class 5 range, depending on its size and grade (see here for the purpose of different grades). But, Class 1 is already pushing it, to be honest.

Attack Potency

Explosive Arrows
Pulverizing a tonne of concrete is actually Wall level+ (0.00398342894 Tons of TNT), but the debris Laurel cleared weren't completely reduced to dust, there's still massive fragments.







Also, Deathstroke and his goons, despite being able to fight Oliver, are clearly far stronger than the likes of Team Arrow to the point where even Brother Blood's minion was able to defeat the Green Arrow without assistance. I'm not saying Roy and Slade an order of magnitude higher, but even the Arrow's explosives are basically nothing to them, which should be an indicator of how much stronger they are. Plus, both Slade and Roy are already comparable to Oliver without the serum.

The Flash
The Flash should still be Small Building level for stopping a tornado, but I doubt it scales to his standard level of combat, since he was building up enough speed with his entire body to reverse it, and feats like this generally surpass his normal ratings. For example, in an alternate timeline, where Weather Wizard creates a tsunami, Barry is briefly able to stop it. Wall level is much more consistent, and the supersonic punch (308,973.544 Joules) would reach these levels of power. Here's a few examples

• Breaks through a windshield at one of his slowest levels of speed.
• Sends an army of clones flying.
• During his fight with Grodd, Barry withstands being launched through a wall, though he's briefly incapacitated.

The Flash - vs. Gorilla Grodd, First Fight

During his battle with Gorilla Grodd, it's shown that Barry still has to build up his speed a lot to perform the supersonic punch, so it still scales above his regular physicals (by this point), but he's withstood hits from the aforementioned Grodd, who managed to block his punch. The first time he ever used this punch (before Farooq's amp) by accelerating to Mach 1.1, he broke his hand.

Also, I think Grodd should be downgraded. He's never done anything like fighting Season 3 Barry again, and it would mean he scales above the Reverse-Flash. Plus, in his next appearance, he's defeated by King Shark. Solovar also scales, though he's superior to Grodd.

Edit: The Grodd thing has been resolved in the comments.

Conclusion
Season 1 Flash (Pre-Farooq amp) is Wall level through scaling to the supersonic punch, while his Post-Farooq stats are the same but to a higher level. Oliver Queen scales to Post-Farooq Barry, and has his own feats to boot, while the Mirakuru soldiers are also Wall level, but to a much higher extent than either of them. All Arrowverse characters who scale to Sarah and Oliver have Class 1 Lifting Strength.

Grodd could be 9-A, since he survived being hit by a trai with little to no injury (as we can see by the end of the episode), and was overpowering King Shark, who outclassed the Flash. Season 2 Barry is able to harm Grodd and Trajectory collapsed a bridge by repeatedly running across its surface.

 

[Greenshifter]

Agree on Class 1, most likely scales to Diggle and the gang as well but not Barry.

I'm not really sure how you got that value, I got 9-A one time by doing the calc but not really sure if metric ton is just 1 cubic metre and the profile says it's rock, not concrete but got no idea if it's true. It might be violent fragmentation tho so best let a calc member do this. The steel door feat of Cyrus Gold also needs to be calced.

For Flash we can do something like Iron Man: 9-B, 9-A overtime.

Grodd should probably have 2 keys, one 9-A and then later on low 7-B for being comparable to Solovar who is one of the only opponents who actually made Flash bleed and it would be very weird for Grodd to be millions of times weaker than Solovar in season 3 and onwards. King Shark should also be considered low 7-B vis scaling to Grodd and thus could potentially lead to pre-tachyon Flash also being low 7-B with lightning.

Did he actually get amped by Farooq?

 

[Ionliosite]

This looks good.

 

[ByAsura]

Concrete weighs 2,400 kilograms per cubic metre, so one tonne of concrete would be 41.666~% of a cubic metre.

King Shark was defeated by the Flash in Season 2 and completely subservient to Zoom in Earth-2. It makes more sense for it to be an outlier for all of them.

He wasn't amped by Farooq, I just said that because it's less verbose than explaining how he got back his powers to a much greater level when all the speed force from his cells was absorbed.

 

[Greenshifter]

Is it rock or concrete tho (pictures aren't very clear)?

Zoom can literally phase kill King Shark before he can blink tho, hard to call it an outlier when we don't even have a statement of Barry growing in power anyways and the way the profiles look right now, he grew in power till post-tachyon enhancement and suddenly stopped growing in power for whatever reason.

Ah yeah sorry just looked at his profile and saw the reason for the "Farooq-amp".

 

[ByAsura]

Concrete. It came from the ceiling of a building.

True. That's probably why it's an outlier; the writers don't always portray Barry as having gotten stronger, until they do, such as the Season 4 premiere, where he breaks out of containment and demolishes a Wally-level opponent.

 

[Greenshifter]

But their lightning remains constant otherwise Jesse Quick wouldn't have been able to supply 1 megaton.

 

[ByAsura]

3 megatons was also portrayed as 3 billion joules in that episode.

 

[Greenshifter]

Exactly I'm probably gonna make a revision thread some time in the future where it's 9-A since even in season 5 they continue with the joules end, possibly low 7-B for metas.

But regardless Jesse does 1/3rd of the feat if I'm not mistaken.

Do we consider the lightning of characters to also grow stronger when they do?

I watched the fights with King Shark and Barry had to use a lot of effort to put him down and use all sorts of tricks so he probably shouldn't be low 7-B pre-tachyon unless we consider their lightning to stay constant regardless of amps.

 

[ByAsura]

She does scale to 1/3rd.

I'm unsure. Barry and Godspeed's lightning has surpassed everyone at one point.

 

[Greenshifter]

Ah didn't watch till Godspeed yet, in that case lightning scales to strength and we just treat it as an outlier/overtime thing with a lot of tricks that Barry can take out a low 7-B King Shark and "tank" one of his punches. Pre-tachyon him can probably scale to Siren's building feat that we also need to calc.

 

[Greenshifter]

Now do we consider violent frag or pulverization for explosive arrows? It would make sense if the result is lower than a supersonic punch (can we still use those for AP with the KE revisions?) since I doubt Oliver can take one of those.

 

[ByAsura]

Frag or violent frag. It is lower.

 

[Greenshifter]

Violent frag, like you said there is some dust and some pieces flying around.

Did the calc and it's still way higher (7708333.33 joules) than the supersonic punch.

So we're basically assuming Flash got at least 10 times stronger post-Farooq so that he can keep up with Arrow? (this would be with his supersonic punch even)

Also isn't getting his by a train only 9-A if you tank the full kinetic energy of the train?

 

[Hellbeast1]

I'd also note that supporting this Deathstroke claims he could survive TNT and then there's the stuff Cyrus does which should scale to Slade (since the Mirakuru soldiers are believed to be as strong as him plus Gold's Mirakuru cane from Slade's blood)

 

[ByAsura]

@Greenshifter The Arrow is still much weaker than Deathstroke, or any Mirakuru Soldier. The difference is probably not 10x, but I could easily see Deathstroke being able to punch 25x harder than Season 1 Barry. 9-A is conservative, It'd probably reach 8-C total kinetic energy (as in the train's energy, not the impact that Grodd took), and Gorilla Grodd clearly took up the majority of the train's front.

@Hellbeast Makes sense.

 

[Greenshifter]

@ByAsura All right then, are you gonna request the calcs on the steel door and the explosive arrows (the latter because we aren't sure whether it's pulverization or violent fragmentation and pixel-scaling could give a more accurate result)?

Also Grodd gets 2 keys then?

 

[ByAsura]

If I can find a clip.

It doesn't really seem like he got stronger.

 

[Greenshifter]

All right

Well in that case I'd just put him at low 7-B from the beginning, it makes no sense for him to be thousands of times weaker than Solovar, so we just treat Barry living after Grodd's punches as an outlier.

 

[ByAsura]

This is just a repeat of what you said before. Solovar did harm Barry, but Grodd is far more consistently on the level of Season 2 opponents.

I'll make a compromise, however. Small Building level, likely far higher (Comparable, though inferior to Solovar, who fought the Flash). It's just that he's highly inconsistent, even overwhelming Season 5 Barry, somehow.

 

[Greenshifter]

Wouldn't he get this just from fighting King Shark who is superior to pre-tachyon Flash?

I'd say at least Small Building level, likely Small City level for both Grodd and King Shark.

 

[ByAsura]

Pre-Tachyon Flash is Small Building level. Ok.

Edit: I forgot they were Small City level instead of Large Town level.

 

[Greenshifter]

Pre-tachyon Flash is Small Building level, likely far higher on his page.

And since to my knowledge everyone that can hurt season 3 Flash is Small City level soooo and since he also overwhelmed season 5 Barry that would be even more of a reason to give him Small City level.

 

[Greenshifter]

Ah yeah with the Firestorm thingy, I kinda disagree with low 7-B Firestorm the way it's worded right now but that can be taken care off in another CRT.

 

[ByAsura]

Which is going to be changed because that value is scaled to his previous tiers.

Look at the edit, I'm fine with likely Small City level. Season 5 Flash is way stronger than Season 3 Flash, further proving how inconsistent they are.

Why do you disagree? He absorbed a nuke and was going to blow up the city. Here's the original thread.

 

[Greenshifter]

Well I'm not really against season 3 Flash being large town level for downscaling from season 4 Flash, the question is what to do with Jesse Quick and Wally. That way Grodd and King Shark can be at least Small Building level, likely Large Town level.

 

[ByAsura]

They aren't Large Town level, they used to be and I forgot they weren't anymore.

 

[Greenshifter]

More neutral on him tanking the nuke after seeing it but absorbing something does not scale to regular AP or otherwise everyone and their mother is low 2-C for Feedback absoring the Big Bang in Ben 10 to give an example.

I know but any downscaling from baseline Small City level is Large Town level.

 

[ByAsura]

It's not just absorbing a nuke, it's also briefly withstanding it (at point-blank range, no less) and creating a huge explosion.

I don't know what you're getting at, no offense. Firestorm is baseline, Reverse Flash is above baseline and Season 3/5 Flash is well above that.

 

[Greenshifter]

Pretty sure during the episode of the 3 megaton nuke they were all gonna supply 1 megaton. Which is with their lightning which should be above their regular AP in the first place.

Firestorm almost blowing up Central City is a suicide attack basically and does not scale to his regular AP.

 

[ByAsura]

Barry has shown to produce much greater amounts of energy, such as his fight against Cicada. Plus, Barry's lightning should be much stronger than Jesse even in Season 3, whose attacks were easily absorbed by Savitar.

It's supporting evidence, and Firestorm still withstood the blast. Also, upon his mere stabilisation, he produced an enormous explosion.

 

[Greenshifter]

Also to re-iterate: Grodd fights season 1 Barry and easily takes a supersonic punch.

Grodd fights season 2 Barry but they opt to send him away.

Grodd fights Solovar who scales to season 3 Barry.

Grodd fights Vixen's mom or daughter depending on the Vixen you're talking about.

Grodd overpowers season 5 Barry and fights King Shark who is superior to beginning of season 2 Barry.

I think small city level is more than consistent enough to warrant a likely on his page if not outright only mentioning small city level and while I am most of the time not a fan of this logic but if Grodd can consistently keep up with Barry as he progresses then he should also have multiple keys as he progresses, we already know his mental powers progresses.

 

[Greenshifter]

That explosion was calced somewhere in the town level range and still not very convinced that it scales to his regular AP.

Barry should get rage power for being able to absorb his lightning into his punches when angry.

We technically don't know how much stronger Jesse has got since the end of season 3 and Jay Garrick tried to get to 1 megaton as well.

Also do Firestorm and Barry actually fight in season 2? Cause it might just be Jax's Firestorm is low 7-B and Barry only becomes his equal in season 4, meanwhile Ronnie's Firestorm is inferior to a weakened Reverse Flash.

 

[ByAsura]

In Season 2, Barry actually harms Grodd, and is able to survive his blows in Season 1. King Shark is exactly the same. Small City level is still inconsistent, as Season 3 Flash (who beat Solovar) is way weaker than Season 5 Flash, who was outclassed by Grodd and King Shark.

I already said I don't disagree with likely or possibly Small City level, but Small Building level also makes sense because all of his feats are at that level. So I'm suggesting Small Building level, possibly Small City level. I'll make the scaling soon.

For the very, very last time, Firestorm still withstood that nuke even before absorbing it. I don't see what's so difficult to understand. The explosion was from merely stabilising their matrix, which is the source of their powers.

 

[Greenshifter]

All right, since Firestorm is more consistently in tier 7 I guess 9-A or 8-C Flash for author statements does seem a little drastic and technically we could scale beginning of season 2 metas to Firestorm's stabilization I guess and give him 2 keys, but that's for another CRT.

Also seems like I need to find the meta's equivalent of growing in power statement that I found for Supergirl if we ever wanna make sense of Grodd

 

[ByAsura]

Flash doesn't scale till very late Season 2.

I think there's something about him mutating.

 

[Greenshifter]

Wouldn't future (but young) Eobard be stronger than weakened (as in trapped in time and needing the wheelchair) Eobard, not sure tho?

Well that's something.

 

[ByAsura]

The one who was erased by Eddie Thawne's death in the Flash's altered timeline can use the speed force in short bursts and constantly supercharges himself with tachyons. He claimed this would make him "invincible", so this version is probably stronger and faster than the Time Remnant. The one on Earth-X and Nora's timeline is most certainly the fastest, though.

I'll try dig it up tomorrow.

 

[Greenshifter]

All right then, thanks for all your effort!

 

[ByAsura]

I couldn't find it, sorry. Here's my ideas.

The Flash

Attack Potency: Wall level (Defeated Tony Woodward, a bullet-proof metahuman who can transform into steel, after accelerating to Mach 1.1), up to Small Building level by running (Stopped a tornado made by Clyde Mardo). Higher after his amp (Physically comparable to the Green Arrow. His cells were stated to produce more energy than before, overloaded Farooq Gibran, who had previously absorbed his powers with ease), can ignore conventional durability with phasing | Small Building level (Casually defeated his past self during the events of The Sound and the Fury, harmed Gorilla Grodd with a supersonic punch. Overpowered Trajectory, who collapsed a bridge by repeatedly running across its surface, by briefly surpassing his limitations), possibly far higher (Briefly fought Reverse-Flash, although he was quickly defeated). Can ignore conventional durability with phasing

Durability: Wall level, Higher after his amp (Survived being thrown through a brick wall) | Small Building level, possibly far higher

Deathstroke (Mirakuru)

Attack Potency: Wall level (Much stronger than Green Arrow and the rest of Team Arrow. Superior to Roy, who punched a hole through a container that no-sold Oliver Queen's explosive arrows)

Durability: Wall level (Should be at least comparable to Cyrus Gold, whose flesh is almost as dense as common concrete, was confident that he could survive a TNT explosio)

Gorilla Grodd

Attack Potency: Small Building level, possibly Small City level (Launched the Flash through a subway wall and caught his supersonic punch. Fought Solovar, who could make the Flash bleed, although he was overpowered. Superior to King Shark, and overwhelmed the Flash in Season 5)

Durability: Small Building level, possibly Small City level (Survived being hit by a train with little injury, withstood the Flash's supersonic punch, who had grown much stronger since they last fought. Was only burned by Heatwave's gun, and survived falling from a skyscraper)

Note: Gorilla Grodd's strength appears to be highly inconsistent...