Are layers dimensions?

[Hat_mchat]

I've seen quite a few tier 1-A characters who are justified as 1-A due to transcending infinite layers which you seem to take as dimensions. For example Gan: "Likely Outerverse level (The Black Tower that is merely Gan's physical manifestation, was implied to have infinite steps, each one an infinite number of times greater than the last, and Gan likely transcends it.)".

Why do you assume transcending infinite layers with each layer infinitely larger than the last means transcending dimensions?


For umineko and I/O i had an issue understanding where the 1-A ranking came from as a lot of evidence for higher dimensional feats cane from vague descriptions of infinite layers etc. Could someone either find specific references to higher dimensions, or could you explain how this infinity to the power of infinity of layers somehow means infinite dimensions?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Fiction often has cosmologies which feature not spatial dimensions literally, but rather layers of higher / lower realities, which can be analogued to how we treat spatial dimensions.

In the case of I/O and Umineko, both series explictly compare these layers to spatial dimensions, so it works out. In The Dark Tower, each step is literally infinitely larger than the previous, so it also works out.

Of course, it's perfectly possible for layers to not be infinitely larger than the previous, which is why Magi isn't High 1-B.

 

[Hat_mchat]

Could you find a comparison between layers and spatial dimensions for I/O or umineko.

I'm a bit suspicious about gan though, as each step is infinitely larger than the last but there are cardinal infinities which are larger than others (Saw a Vsauce video about it), why do you assume the infinite steps are analogues to dimensions?

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

The Layers are the steps on an infinite ladder.

This higher realm is in one layer. In Umineko the two are differentiated by reality-fiction interaction.

The dimensionality is dependent on the correlation between higher and lower worlds. They will not simply state there is an infinite number of dimensions, because in truth there are, in Umineko's case, an insignificantly greater number of dimensions than simply infinite.

 

[Antvasima]

We have a Composite Hierarchies page that I think somewhat explains how our system works.

 

[Hat_mchat]

"Within such a cosmology, the difference between these layers/planes is actually greater than the difference between physical dimensions, due to each layer containing several dimensions within them. Otherwise, these can be known as metaphysical layers.

For example: In Umineko, there's at least 5 dimensions added to each higher layer in the lowest domain (+1 temporality). Meaning the difference between these layers is qualitatively greater than the difference between dimensions." -Composite Hierachies

First of all could you find some proof that the difference between layers is actually greater than the difference between spatial dimensions, preferably with a quote that specifies dimensions.

Secondly, could you prove that 5 spatial dimensions are added to each layer in umineko.

Finally, regarding the infinite dimensional structure of Klein bottles in demonbane, all i could find was this confusing image that talks about infinity in a manner suspiciously close to a mere infinite multiverse.

 

[SITHISIT]

^ ive found nothing across its lore, games, etc. that suggests within the Klein bottles are infinite dimensions. Just infinite timelines

 

[Antvasima]

Sera Loveheart and VenomElite might be able to help out.

 

[Antvasima]

We also have the following information pages:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:VenomElite/Official_Demonbane_Cosmology_and_Explanatio

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:VenomElite/When_They_Cry_Cosmology

 

[VenomElite]

Layers are not dimensions. The difference between those layers is greater than the difference between physical dimensions.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, I was also uncertain if Gan qualified for such a high rating, but asked DarkLK about it, and if I remember correctly, he thought that it seemed acceptable.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I think I explained it well enough. .-.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Antvasima

Gan is actually very downplayed to be 1-A. The Outer Gods and Azathoth canonically exist in Stephen King's verse, and the later is just an aspect of Gan if I am not mistaken.

But due to the sheer number of books King's published, it's very hard for me to find the written quotes to prove this.

 

[FTW395]

@Antvasima
Gan is actually very downplayed to be 1-A. The Outer Gods and Azathoth canonically exist in Stephen King's verse, and the later is just an aspect of Gan if I am not mistaken.

But due to the sheer number of books King's published, it's very hard for me to find the written quotes to prove this.

Wait Azatoth is an aspect of Gan?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Canonically, everything that Stephen King ever-wrote is supposed to take place in the same multiverse of Dark Tower, and he has written a few Cthulhu Mythos storylines throughout the decades. So his versions of Cthulhu, the Outer Gods and Azathoth would all be beneath Gan.

 

[Sera_EX]

Klein Bottles are not infinite dimensions. I'd rather not waste time explaining this. It's bad enough I'm still explaining Tier 0s to someone on FC/OC. It's nauseating and extremely annoying to keep repeating the same thing over and over again.

Umineko adding 5 dimensions to each layer is explained on the blog. I/O is quite similar. It's a meta-hierarchy. It's physical and metaphysical hierarchies combined, composite. To understand Umineko cosmology you must analyze Higurashi first, which everyone seems to ignore and it's quite annoying. DarkLK and Ven have explained it over and over and over again.

 

[Kaltias]

His version of the Outer Gods =/= Lovecraft's Outer Gods though

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yes, but I am 100% willing to bet that they have 1-A descriptions.

 

[Sera_EX]

That's not actually what this is supposed to be about guys.

 

[Sera_EX]

Clearly explains a dimension-like difference in the cosmology. Higher and lower worlds , the higher one being qualitatively the previous similar to a 6-dimensional structure is quantitatively and qualitatively superior to a 5-dimensional one.

 

[FTW395]

So the whole multiverse is a dream of Azatoth and that Azatoth is an aspect of Gan. Talk about layers

 

[Sera_EX]

Azathoth (The Dark Tower) not Azathoth (Cthulhu Mythos canon). So it doesn't even matter.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Anyway, I was also uncertain if Gan qualified for such a high rating, but asked DarkLK about it, and if I remember correctly, he thought that it seemed acceptable.

Here's a quote that proves 1-A Gan:

"Out of the Prim arose Gan, animating spirit of the Dark Tower. From the magical waters dripping out of his navel, Gan spun the physical universe. But sensing that one world was not large enough to contain all possible manifestations of life and experience, he divided the universe into multiple, parallel realities, and set six magnetic Beams in place to maintain the alignment of time, space, size, and dimension in all of them. Gan sat at the center of the world-web, singing the rocks and mountains and trees into existence, singing the song of the White"

Basically, Gan creates all possible universes and maintains the alignment of space, time and dimensions in all of them.

 

[Antvasima]

Perhaps this should be explained within his page?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I can try to improve Gan's profile.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you.

 

[Hat_mchat]

The image explaining klein bottles just talks about infinity contained within a larger infinity endlessly, this doesn't neccesarily mean higher spatial dimensions. You can very well account for larger infinities without another dimension with power sets of infinity which essentially are larger cardinal infinities.

You say clearly, but nothing about dimensions in the text is clear, from what I've seen on the wiki, clarity is essential for higher tiers and all the text talks about is bigger infinities.

By the way, I'm not dismissing all of demonbane here, just that very vague description of dimensional hierachy. Tier high 1-B is for infinite dimensional beings, so klein bottles kind of need to be infinite dimensional in one way or another and i don't see that specific description as specific enough.

About the composite hierachies page, there are a lot of claims, but no sources on the page, which understandably led to my confusion regarding I/O and umineko. Thanks for the cosmology links i will check them out soon. I suppose you will know if i understand soon.

 

[Sera_EX]

No it's not. Do you think zero is infinity? It's the exact opposite. It's referring to '''perspective'''. Our "zero" is a lower being's "infinity". Our universe is a grain of sand to a higher being. That is the context and it's further clear in Japanese as it refers to all possible embodiments of space time and multidimensional cosmology extending endlessly across outer chaos.

 

[Sera_EX]

And the Composite Hierarchies page does not make "claims" and you don't need visual evidence for everything.

 

[Hat_mchat]

So is it just poor translation that makes it ambiguous?

 

[Sera_EX]

It's not ambiguous. That's one scan in a 50 hour long visual novel.

 

[Hat_mchat]

I was specifically referring to that one scan which was used as evidence on Nyarlathotep's page.

Also it is a claim as it is an assertion without proof. The page didn't provide any evidence hence it is a claim. Preferrably there should be some form of evidence on the page, perhaps a direct quote or some visual evidence.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

This is going nowhere.

 

[Hat_mchat]

So it seems, perhaps I'm too thick. Thanks for the effort anyway everybody I'll think it all over.

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew Agreed.

Also, Sera and VenomElite are planning to improve the Demonbane pages, if I remember correctly.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Maybe just close the thread.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Matt

To my knowledge, Azathoth, Yog-Sothoth, and any other Outer Gods never actually appear or are stated to exist in King's work, at least nothing I have read. There could be some obscure thing I am missing.

Off the top of my head, graffiti with Yog-Sothoth's name is mentioned at one point in Needful Things, and Randall Flagg was at one point speculated to be an avatar of Nyarlathotep, but this was later suggested to be false and it was just one of the many titles he'd earned for himself, over the years.

@Sera

Isn't there a scan that specifically mentions power beyond all dimensions?

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew Okay.

 

[Antvasima]

Since Azathoth wants some questions answered I reopened the thread.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Already answered the first question to Azzy on a PM.

To answer the second one: Yes, when Etheldreda bestows Master Therion with Outer God-level powers, she says that she'll give him the "power to go beyond dimensions".