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Arceus vs Othinus

The_real_cal_howard

The_real_cal_howard

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Another Othinus vs someone who begins with A thread. Arceus is missing the Meadow Plate, but that's it. Speed is equalized. Will probability beat conceptuality? Or will the goat with a control panel destroy the blonde with an eyepatch?

493Arceus Grass Dream
Ironically, the plate to get this form is missing

Othinus2
 
More glasscanon vs people with universe level+ durability you mean ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

(I mean she doesn't know about his weakness at all, so the missing plate isn't even relevant given that nobody would normally choose that ineffective of a attack method)


Othinus manipulates math to make arceus PP all 0, kappa.
 
Vote for Arceus, seems to be overall stronger, can match most of Othinus' powers, has a wider array of actual combat moves and can even summon the Creation Trio if it's feeling lazy and doesn't want to fight. Probability Manipulation can only do so much.
 
Why is Arceus missing the meadow plate?

Why the meadow plate in particular?

I feel like virtually no other beings on Arceus' level use attacks of that type.

As for the match itself, I don't know, because I have no idea exactly how close all plates -1 Arceus is to complete Arceus, who is at least 2-C.
 
I just chose the meadow plate because we had a picture of the meadow plate form of Arceus lol. Irony is king :p

On a note. DontTalk is awesome. What a guy, his comment making me laugh XD.
 
Oh yeah. Well tell me when the tier High 1-C character gets hurt by a Meteor after being weakened by Silver Water.
 
Changed my mind. Arceus lacks Meadow Plate, so Othinus drops Ygdrassil on its head. XD

Since I don't follow Pokemon since the first two games I wasn't aware that there was a scene like that. Man, that seems like the kind of thing downplayers love, like the Goku laser stuff from RoF. Or Mikoto struggling against a single Powered Suit from the Railgun anime filler.
 
LazyHunter said:
Since I don't follow Pokemon since the first two games I wasn't aware that there was a scene like that. Man, that seems like the kind of thing downplayers love, like the Goku laser stuff from RoF. Or Mikoto struggling against a single Powered Suit from the Railgun anime filler.
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It's the reason stuff like "Country level Pokemon God-Tiers" still exists despite the franchise having multiple, repeated tier 2 feats. lol
 
Dragonmasterxyz said:
Oh yeah. Well tell me when the tier High 1-C character gets hurt by a Meteor after being weakened by Silver Water.
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That high 1-C character got pwn'd by a spray paint can. A SPRAY PAINT CAN. AND NOT THE CAN ITSELF And couldn't catch up to two 13 year olds. By the way, they were barely teens. However, f***ing silver water... I can let meteor get by, but f***ing. silver. water.
 
LazyHunter said:
Changed my mind. Arceus lacks Meadow Plate, so Othinus drops Ygdrassil on its head. XD
Since I don't follow Pokemon since the first two games I wasn't aware that there was a scene like that. Man, that seems like the kind of thing downplayers love, like the Goku laser stuff from RoF. Or Mikoto struggling against a single Powered Suit from the Railgun anime filler.
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Oh trust me go on any Arceus vs match on anywhere but here. There is a guaranteed one person who will bring that scene up as an argument.
 
@Cal Dude Spray paint is deadly. If it gets in your eyes...OUCH!!!XD.

Anyway it seems Arceus either wins or gets crushed by a meteor. Either than or Orthi creates some silver water...
 
on a more serious note, 1st, how would Othinus's Phases be handled? i mean, Arceus -might- be able to undo them, but probably not instantly, and she might be able to instakill Arceus due to it being technically vulnerable to the same things pokemon are (at worst, she just keeps embedding phases untill something works)

2nd, about the Silver Water incident. do we even know what material this is referring to? i've heard some speculations that it's Lead in some liquid-but-not-molten form but i dunno. Othinus would probably end up recreating it at some point, but it's unlikely since she doesn't know Arceus is weak to it. it DOES however prove that despite the plates, Arceus is still weak to anything that's not a pokemon type. so it does give Othinus some breathing room, making the plates that she probably wouldn't even know about slightly less relevant.

3rd, despite being a fan of both series, i'm honestly not too familiar with their feats (due to not knowing any of the manga stuff for pokemon, and not being able to afford the Toaru LNs irl, nor being able to find them online), so take this post with a grain of salt
 
well, it does say that arceus is missing 1 plate, arbitrarily decided as the grass-type plate 'cause they had a picture, so i'd assume incomplete.
 
Arceus can still potentially use all abilities known in the pokemonverse so i can see stuff like Wonder Guard, Trace, Imposter and some other notable abilities being helpful here. It should counter any move that isnt classified under a pokemon type.
 
Those abilities were never shown to be applicable to 2-C extent.

In general durability enhancing abilities, resistances and immunities require exactly the same feats as normal durability feats in order to claim that they work against anything more powerful than shown (except it is explained how they work so that we can reason based on the mechanics).
 
DontTalk said:
Those abilities were never shown to be applicable to 2-C extent.
In general durability enhancing abilities, resistances and immunities require exactly the same feats as normal durability feats in order to claim that they work against anything more powerful than shown (except it is explained how they work so that we can reason based on the mechanics).
Click to expand...
Right but we also can't just purely ignore them due to Arceuss status. It's logically implied Arceus should be able to possess them because of him being the creator of the verse. That note is even placed on his profile. If it wasnt applicable at all there would be no point in making a note like that in the first place.
 
Also, abilities like Wonder Guard, Imposter and Trace are not any of what you have listed at all. Wonder Guard forces the opponent to only use moves that work well against the user, Trace replicates the opponents abilities and Imposter is basically Ditto's transformation power only its done automatically before the battle even begins.
 
Yes, and if you tell me that trace can replicate any ability, even though it was only shown to replicate the low tier ones from normal pokemon, that wonder guard makes every move miss that isn't effective (given that the literal text only states that "only supereffective moves hit") even though it only has to deal with normal pokemon moves or that it can transform into everyone replicating their power you are going far beyond what this abilties are shown to be capable of, completly into the NLF territory.

In a 2-C fight this abilities simply have no showings that would suggest that they work on the given level of power. That is not "simply disregarding" them, that is just logically saying that a Shedinja will hardly stay alive if arceus decides to purge the timelime, just because the type of that move wasn't super effective. Arceus tier in this case is irrelevant, since his power doesn't necessarily influence the power of the ability at all, not even to mention above that of his own durability.
 
well, let's just assume for convenience that Arceus does possess the abilities of every other pokemon, we still have no proof those work on non-pokemon types nor to what extent they'd work. on the other hand the silver water incident proves Arceus is able to be dealt with by non-pokemon types, so even if the silver water itself may as well be a meme at this point, it stands to reason that Othinus could do other such non-type related actions.

Also, i really feel we should have a couple posts explaining how the phases would work vs arceus. i remember something to the effect of "It depends on priority, if the reality warper negates the existance of casuality warping, the casuality warper can't warp casualty to regain said casualty warping due to no longer having said warping" but i'd feel this is something closer to reality warping vs reality.... creation? if that's even a distinction? because so far as i know, Arceus only created the creation trio, they did the more reality warping aspects.

so assuming it was a phase that didn't negate arceus's abilities, how quickly could arceus "fix" the world, or could arceus remove the phase before it's embedded, Kamisato/World Rejector style?
 
DontTalk said:
Yes, and if you tell me that trace can replicate any ability, even though it was only shown to replicate the low tier ones from normal pokemon, that wonder guard makes every move miss that isn't effective (given that the literal text only states that "only supereffective moves hit") even though it only has to deal with normal pokemon moves or that it can transform into everyone replicating their power you are going far beyond what this abilties are shown to be capable of, completly into the NLF territory.
In a 2-C fight this abilities simply have no showings that would suggest that they work on the given level of power. That is not "simply disregarding" them, that is just logically saying that a Shedinja will hardly stay alive if arceus decides to purge the timelime, just because the type of that move wasn't super effective. Arceus tier in this case is irrelevant, since his power doesn't necessarily influence the power of the ability at all, not even to mention above that of his own durability.
Click to expand...
Trace im not sure about, Wonder Guard probably wouldnt miss only be negated, especially in Arceus's case who can negate attacks on a daily Basis. Even in game mechanics for someone with Wonder Guard it doesnt say the move will miss. And its not a NLF here when we are talking about a pokemon who not only has infinite/immeasurable speed but is also omnipresent on a 4D and higher scale. Transform also isnt an NLF, just because you can replicate their power it doesnt mean its as good as the original. Ditto has done this in every part of the franchise and it has been beaten, at least in the anime. IIRC, Ditto can copy every stat accurately except for HP meaning the move Transform in general still has its flaws and limits to it.

Shedninja is a horrible example because it has quite a number of weaknesses like ghost or fire, something Arceus can easily acomplish and take advantage of without needing to resort to "purging the timeline".
 
Just because it has a weakness doesn't mean it isn't a NLF.

And the power of arceus is irrelevant to the question how powerful the ability is, he still requires feats for how strong that particular ability is on him and I can tell you he doesn't have any that would justify that it protects him against more than his normal durablity does.

And Shedninja is a very good example, since you are claiming that if arceus just purges the timeline he would survive that. That arceus can defeat it through other methods is irrelevant here, you are still claiming that Shedninja would survive it if arceus would try that approach, which is nonsense. Basically you would even further saying that a 1-A entity can not damage it without using a move its weak to. Complete nonsense.

And as far as the ability description goes it literally says "Only supereffective moves will hit." as far as I am aware. In battle representation is less relevant in that context, since the battle are stronger effected by the game mechanics. And if we are talking about the mechanics of the move wonder guard doesn't protect against typeless moves like struggle in the first place, so it wouldn't even do more than the plates already do.
 
The real cal howard said:
This got even more off topic lol.
Click to expand...
Discussions in which I discuss 90% of the time. I don't know why, probably because I often only discuss certain arguments, not fights.
 
DontTalk said:
Just because it has a weakness doesn't mean it isn't a NLF.
And the power of arceus is irrelevant to the question how powerful the ability is, he still requires feats for how strong that particular ability is on him and I can tell you he doesn't have any that would justify that it protects him against more than his normal durablity does.

And Shedninja is a very good example, since you are claiming that if arceus just purges the timeline he would survive that. That arceus can defeat it through other methods is irrelevant here, you are still claiming that Shedninja would survive it if arceus would try that approach, which is nonsense. Basically you would even further saying that a 1-A entity can not damage it without using a move its weak to. Complete nonsense.

And as far as the ability description goes it literally says "Only supereffective moves will hit." as far as I am aware. In battle representation is less relevant in that context, since the battle are stronger effected by the game mechanics. And if we are talking about the mechanics of the move wonder guard doesn't protect against typeless moves like struggle in the first place, so it wouldn't even do more than the plates already do.
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...Im sorry, how exactly? The point of NLF is to assume the ability has no limit to what it can do. If it has a weakness then its clearly limited.

IIRC, abilities such as these are haxes and most hax abilities ignore AP. And if thats the case then why not just have the ability work for as strong as Arceus is? So that the ability doesnt work on beings who have stronger AP then his durability?

No I didnt. I never once claimed that. You were the one who has brought that up concerning Shedninja and if it can obviously be dealt with such simple tactics such as using fire, ghost, dark, flying or rock abilities, then purging a timeline or similar tactics like that will obviously kill it. So yes its a horrible example when doing something on that magnitude against a fodder being is completely uneccsary and outlandish. Actually, in pokemons case, arent Roar of Time and Spacial Rend, moves that warp time and space, considered Dragon type moves? What do you have to explain that in this case?

Are you refering to Arceus or Shedninga? Because a 1-A being would clearly have abilties that can kill Shedninja. As for Arceus it would kill it too since 1-A is in a completely different tier than what Arceus is in

And just for reference Struggle isnt typeless its a normal type move- http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Struggle_(move)
 
NLF is more for assuming an ability can do something at a scale beyond what it's shown to be able to do in cannon due to not having been given an upper limit. a "weakness" isn't really a limit since if you have an ability that theoretically can reach infinite attack but was never shown to, but the character has a weakness to, i dunno, pizza, that infinite attack argument would still be NLF because a weakness to pizza would have no bearing on the attack itself. This is, effectively what you're saying although my example is still a bit exagerated.

In other words, assuming arceus can do things far beyond what the ability has been shown to do, assuming he even has access to that ability, is NLF even if the ability still has weak points.

Also, about the RoT/SR being dragon type, remember that in Pokemon Mystery Dungeon Explorers of Time/Darkness/Sky, in the postgame Darkrai was messing with space to effectively use Nightmare/Dark Void on everyone, which are ghost and dark type respectively. A slightly less cannon example, but point being, spatial and temporal distortions aren't always the same type, which also means that there's no reason why they're prevented from being typeless as well.

Further on the distortions topic, how would Othinus's phases fare against Arceus?

-How long would it take Arceus to undo a phase

-Would Arceus be able to destroy a phase before it gets embedded like Kamisato/World Rejector did in cannon (although the phase was a different Magic God's, rather than Othinus)

-Would Othinus simply be able to embedd a phase that strips Arceus of it's power?
 
Problem here is that Othinus is a glass cannon. Arceus can tank her hits while she cannot tank his. His hax will eventually overwhelm hers since he has Conceptual Manipulation. Meaning arguing his other pokemonly(That is now a word XD) abilities is a waste of time. He would simply one shot her considering her durability is too low to survive a hit while his is indeed high enough to tank hits from her.
 
Hmmm... one thing though. Othinus does have a feat where she manipulates the probability of her one weapon so that it will nearly unfailingly hit the target (i don't know of a time where it's failed, but it's theorized that against someone like Accelerator it might?) and Pokemon has a LOT of rng, in the games anyways. couldn't she technically manipulate all of Arceus attacks to miss? i dunno, just a random thought.
 
Nah because Probability is a concept. Meaning Arceus' Conceptual Manipulation is still more powerful.
 
Wyver Luna said:
NLF is more for assuming an ability can do something at a scale beyond what it's shown to be able to do in cannon due to not having been given an upper limit. a "weakness" isn't really a limit since if you have an ability that theoretically can reach infinite attack but was never shown to, but the character has a weakness to, i dunno, pizza, that infinite attack argument would still be NLF because a weakness to pizza would have no bearing on the attack itself. This is, effectively what you're saying although my example is still a bit exagerated.
In other words, assuming arceus can do things far beyond what the ability has been shown to do, assuming he even has access to that ability, is NLF even if the ability still has weak points.

Also, about the RoT/SR being dragon type, remember that in Pokemon Mystery Dungeon Explorers of Time/Darkness/Sky, in the postgame Darkrai was messing with space to effectively use Nightmare/Dark Void on everyone, which are ghost and dark type respectively. A slightly less cannon example, but point being, spatial and temporal distortions aren't always the same type, which also means that there's no reason why they're prevented from being typeless as well.
Click to expand...
That depends on the weakness of the user because what if that said weakness effected something as such like Stamina or energy usage? Then it would effect the ability or said attack or how you even use them respectivly. Then its no longer a NLF.

If thats the case then why is he noted to potentially have them all? It's literally written as a note on his profile that he can potentially use any and all pokemon abilities due to his status as the creator of the verse. If it was really an NLF, or if he really couldnt use them, then he wouldnt be given that note at all. Just because an ability looks NLFish doesnt stop it from becoming a legit vs battle technique. Besides, all abilities in pokemon seem to depend on the level of the user any way. For example, Pikachu's ability static can paralaze anything that comes into physical contact with it. Doesnt mean its ability is better than let's say a more powerful electric type like Zapdos. Or if let's say a Charmander is in use of its Blaze ability to power up its fire attacks. Clearly a Charizard with the same ability would have stronger usages. It's only an ability used on a higher level because of the user. If this is really the case, then there's no reason why we cant lable every Pokemon ability for Arceus to be on Arceus's level and nothing more, that way no one in let's say the 1-A tier would lose to him just because of an ability like Trace or Imposter and it wouldnt become NLFish. We cant just simply ignore the possibilty of him having these abilities in VS battles when he's noted to possibly have them.

Other than the fact that, like you said, its a lesser canon, did Darkrai's ghost/dark type moves effect space or did he effect space first to use those moves? Because if he did, then I dont see the connection your trying to establish. In fact how would we even describe typeless moves? Outside of elemental types like Fire or Water, attributes like Dragon, Fairy or Normal can literally be classified as anything you can think of. For example, Twister is just a move that is labled as a bunch of swirling air yet its classified as a Dragon type move. Hyper Beam or Signal Beam are just beam attacks and yet one is classified as normal while the other is bug. And like the example i gave before, even something as complex as Space and Time manipulation is classified as Dragon Type moves...there's absolutely no connection between any of these moves being classifed the way they are. Im not really saying just any move in fiction can be classified as a Pokemon type but how can you describe "typeless" moves when at least 3 of the types can have anything under its classification?
 
1st, you're somewhat missing the point about my NLF thing, although you are right about me overlooking stamina concerns although even that can get borderline NLF on occasion.

It's not that arceus can't have those abilities, because having those abilities isn't NLF. assuming it has those abilities but upgraded when the abilities have shown no feats of the kind your considering and assuming that the abilities can be and are upgraded simply by the being possessing said abilities being stronger than the original when there have been no feats of this is NLF

2nd, i'm honestly not sure if Darkrai used the moves to warp space or vice versa, it's never specified, just that he's doing it without Palkia's consent and in a way Palkia can't fix until after Darkrai's defeat/amnesia

3rd, i'm pretty sure types for non-moves depend on the use/user in cases where it's not obvious (like that one person mentioned dropping Yggdrasil on Arceus, obviously a plant). something like reality warping could be any type or typeless due to how it's getting warped. i'm pretty sure Othinus isn't normal, that magic gods don't count as fairies, and that Othinus has no associations with dragons built into her abilities. she also doesn't fall under any of the elemental types.
 
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