Arceus Revisions

[HeeHomeboyMokey]

So, I have a problem with the Arceus page.

The thing is, most Arceus should be universal, as there is more than one per universe, as they have multiple origins. Arceus apparently resides in a dungeon in Mystery Dungeon, a different universe, yet it is stated that it is the creator of the Sinnoh region and the universe in the main canon, but no where does it say that there is one Arceus and it created the multiverse of Pokémon. I disagree, there are multiple Arceus, with some different feats (check out that Arceus upgrade thread where they talk about manga feats) but Pokémon on par with Arceus can lose to ordinary mons? When bloodlusted? (Primal Dialga, who also watches over Temporal Tower, yet is also somehow in all of the Pokémon universes, jumping from one to another? That just doesn't make sense and sounds ridiculous.)

Jumping from universe to universe not only sounds ridiculous but it is also false. Time exists because Dialga is in the Pokémon universe via statements and space is kept in order by Palkia, because Arceus had them govern them. However, when they all appear on the same screen and there is "only one" of them, that is a contradiction to these statements since they exist within another universe.

So there are multiple versions of Arceus, but there is likely a multiversal manga one, because I know nothing about the manga, or maybe I missed something. I typed this up within five minutes and I not only likely missed a lot of info, but I may have put in false info or contradicted myself.

Sweet dreams.

 

[Alakabamm]

A higher level being can exist in multiple places at once, you know?

And nothing says the events of each game happen at the same "time"

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

And nothing says the events of each game happen at the same "time"

Correct. They hint at quite the opposite, actually. We already know for G/S/C come after R/B/G/Y, B/W hapen after that, and obviously are followed by B2/W2. We also know from OR/AS that it takes place in a different universe/timeline than R/S/E, and HG/SS confirms Arceus exists outside of traditional universes in its own separate realm.

There's probably more things I'm missing too, but yeah, it's definitely beyond universal.

I also forgot to mention that, in the anime, Palkia and Dialga spend a good chunk of their screentime jumping between universes, so it's as far from an unfounded claim as possible.

 

[Akuto_Sai12]

If we only go by the primary canon which are the games then yeah but I believe his page is composite?

Regular Arceus Universal

Composite is Multiversal but on this wiki multi universal

Also someone should probably fix the lake trio subduing a char doesn't give you their AP otherwise I'm sure hoopa would also be low 2-C

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

Azathoth pretty much covered this. Please read up on omnipresence. As for being hurt by regular mons, game mechanics and PIS. Regular mons cannot hurt a 4-Dimensional being.

 

[HeeHomeboyMokey]

No, the problem here is that there are multiple Arceus with abilities that they have only shown. If we say that Pokemon Rumble and the main canon have the same Arceus then IDEFK what to say about that.

In fact, we have seen multiple legendaries of the same kind before, but the only difference is that this is the Creation Trio with multiple of them.

I'm not saying that we demote him to Universal when other sources clearly show a different Arceus, but I think when we have a Creation Trio that takes a few minutes to start creating a new universe in the main canon, some crazy anime black hole shit going on in another, and one where that black hole shit is done casually, there are different versions.

 

[HeeHomeboyMokey]

Azathoth pretty much covered this. Please read up on omnipresence. As for being hurt by regular mons, game mechanics and PIS. Regular mons cannot hurt a 4-Dimensional being.

If you are saying I don't know what omnipresence is, that doesn't have relevance to the topic at hand.

I am saying that there is no Arceus that casually has shown to jump from one universe to another, omnipresence is a completely different concept between actually creating a portal and moving.

 

[Alakabamm]

Can you prove they are different Arceus? I really doubt that you can.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I am saying that there is no Arceus that casually has shown to jump from one universe to another

He really doesn't need to when three beings he directly created have shown to do so.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

Arceus is just the physical manifestation of the The Original One, the only way for there to be completely different manifestations is for there to be completely different Original Spirits, which of course is completely contradictory to what was established in lore.

The god tiers, unlike almost every Legendary in any media, are treated to be wholly unique.

Also, Pokemon rangers, Arceus has been shown to teleport individuals and itself to another Universe. Same for Dialga, Palkia and Giratina. You have yet to give us a proper reason to downgrade them.

One of your arguments is that game Arceus is Universal. Except that doesn't make any sense as Giratina and Palkia, in the main canon, have been stated to reside in their own realms, automatically making you incorrect, and whilst no such thing was mentioned of Dialga the fact that it was mentioned to be needed to summon it via a completely different portal (instead of the one Palkia came through) pretty much makes the idea that the established dimensional hierarchy mentioned in the movies hold true, as confirmed in HGSS where Arceus holds its own dimension.

 

[HeeHomeboyMokey]

Arceus is just the physical manifestation of the The Original One, the only way for there to be completely different manifestations is for there to be completely different Original Spirits, which of course is completely contradictory to what was established in lore.

The god tiers, unlike almost every Legendary in any media, are treated to be wholly unique.

Also, Pokemon rangers, Arceus has been shown to teleport individuals and itself to another Universe. Same for Dialga, Palkia and Giratina. You have yet to give us a proper reason to downgrade them.

One of your arguments is that game Arceus is Universal. Except that doesn't make any sense as Giratina and Palkia, in the main canon, have been stated to reside in their own realms, automatically making you incorrect, and whilst no such thing was mentioned of Dialga the fact that it was mentioned to be needed to summon it via a completely different portal (instead of the one Palkia came through) pretty much makes the idea that the established dimensional hierarchy mentioned in the movies hold true, as confirmed in HGSS where Arceus holds its own dimension.

The way I see it, these alternate universes are likely pocket dimensions, as they can be accessed within our (Pokémon, kek) universe, by entering a cave, and it's structures are similar to that of our world, so we can say that they are not actual universes themselves.

Also, I think it has been well-established now that they can enter another universe: I contradicted myself twice typing this and another message, especially since I cited the manga upgrade thread. In there, Palkia and Dialga have been able to create portals.

However, the other god tiers are not unique. The reason being that Dialga is surprised that you are a human, and that right there says that if there was only one of the god tiers, then why is Dialga even surprised anymore?

Also, I never wanted to demote him, I have said multiple times that there are different versions, and that needs to be established. Given that the Mystery Dungeon series can show us there is a different being governing space and time, I don't see why other god tiers can't be the same, especially since every AU has stated it is the creator of this universe. In fact, that was the way Arceus was before, and I don't know why that changed on the wiki, and I really wanted to find out why as well, and maybe learn something in the process. (the page wasn't helpful if all it states is: Created multiverse.)

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

It's not accessed by the cave, but a portal formed after you've defeated Giratina which combines two different space-times and thus is not a logia you can use to assume something is a pocket Univers especially when said Dimension is stated to be a parallel Universe.

We have no clue how big Palkia's and Dialga's dimensions are in the games, however in the anime they are depicted as not only existing completely outside the Pokemon Universe but are also comparable in size to it which means they can't be termed pocket Universes.

Humans don't exist in the Pokemon Dungeon Universe.

Correction, you assumed he would be only Universe level+ going by game canon which has already been proven incorrect.

Mystery Dungeons show us the very opposite, that Palkia and Dialga are explicitly stated to be the Masters of Time and Space.

I don't quite understand you're question. Usually when a god tier is stated to create a particular Universe and said Universe us revealed to be a multiverse the god tier automatically scales.

Not that this matters as the term the "World" is a vague terminology in the Pokemon Universe that has been referred to as Galaxies, populations, Earth, Universes and even the multiverse.

Complete Arceus was probably never Universe level+ for any considerable amount of time, considering how close to the release of the games the Movies were.

 

[HeeHomeboyMokey]

Alright, well that is that then, but there is one problem with what you said:

"Humans don't exist in the Pokemon Dungeon Universe."

Actually, Grovyle said himself that his partner in stopping Dusknoir in the future world, so actually, humans, to some extent, do exist.

Edit: last paragraph I wrote made no ******* sense. What I meant was this:

Grovyle said his partner in stopping Dusknoir and Primal Dialga was a human.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

You're right, humans do exist in the PMD Universe though so few they're referred to as "Fairy Tales" in a separate installment. My mistake.