Arceus needs a major downgrade

[M4d30fInfiniteS0rr0w]

Arceus is put at 2-B because every game is said to be an alt universe. This is terrible logic. Each game can have there own arceus, correct? every copy has one. So with this, arceus would be less than 232 million times multiversal. Currently, the multiverse of pokemon includes (Interlapping movies, games, and spinoffs) The Ultrabeast realm, The realms of the trios, our realm, and alt universe from one of the shows (lets just say this alt realm has its own trio and ultrabeast realm), and arceus,s realm which we will assume is as big as the rest combined, and we get 20 universes, give or take. maybe we can multiply this by a few, because you can currently get arceus legitamently in gen 3, meaning you can multiply this by 9 (omega ruby and ultra saphire are confirmed different, i assumed this went with ultra sun/moon) and you get 180 times multiversal. Still impressive, but not 2-B


"Isnt this a game mechanic that you can get more than 1 arcues?" just as much as getting more than one game.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

First of all, this is not a vs thread. Honest mistake but still needs to be pointed out.

Second of all, we already had at least two threads on this. One to get this accepted and another to try and revert it, its still here. Unless you have some new stuff that was not included in the op (dunno why you wouldn't) or has shown up that slipped past everyone else, 2-B Arceus is gonna stay.

 

[Zeifyl]

Actually there isn't an Ultra Beast realm. There's a lot of them. Every worm hole in Ultra Space leads to another Universe. And most, if not all Universes got a Mirror Cave, with every mirror leading to another Universe with its own Mirror Cave.

Each of these adds approximately a kgbhillion Universes to the count.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

"The Original One breathed alone before the universe came."

(Also, Palkia debunks it too)

 

[M4d30fInfiniteS0rr0w]

"The Original One breathed alone before the universe came."
(Also, Palkia debunks it too)

He could have created his section. also, the universe.

 

[SomebodyData]

While the first statement can be put into the context of the universe (Heck pretty sure its supposed to be), Palkia's statement firmly puts them at their current tier. @M4d

 

[DMB_1]

You'd be surprised in how mean works of fiction, "Universe" and "World" can actually mean "all of the multiverse" or "all of existence".

 

[M4d30fInfiniteS0rr0w]

Whats this arcues statement? also, the link thing could easily mean each GEN is a different universe, and claiming otherwise is a fan theory. Each game being cannn in a larger multiverse would have to include the many arceus's, correct? Saying that each copy sold has 1 arceus when it denies basic facts are false. and no one has ever confirmed that each copy of the game is its ow multiverse, rather "A universe without mega evolution", and at the end of omega ruby, "Another universe with koygre", not every game. And if these pokemon are unaware of othr games, saying 1 person made everything would not be frced to include this.

 

[NeoZex6399]

He could have created his section. also, the universe.

Arceus created Palkia from his own being, who is the creator of parallel dimensions and master of space and dimensions, also Arceus creates another universe in the HG/SS event so the theory that there is one Arceus per universe was debunked long ago (also that theory doesn't make much sense tbh).

 

[DbzDB2]

I think Arceus scales from Palkia who is 2-B

 

[M4d30fInfiniteS0rr0w]

He could have created his section. also, the universe.

Arceus created Palkia from his own being, who is the creator of parallel dimensions and master of space and dimensions, also Arceus creates another universe in the HG/SS event so the theory that there is one Arceus per universe was debunked long ago (also that theory doesn't make much sense tbh).

The idea that its stated he made "All universes" is fine, but you would need PROOF (Not fanmade theories that we can debate about for days) that these are cannonly connected. The fact that every copy of gen 3 has an arceus is already very problamatic. IF every game was made by arceus, and they are all connected because of the link cable easter egg, why can i legitamately have 2 or more arceus in the same game simultaniosley? The link cable is a theory, so theres nothing i can debunk per say, as i cant tell you my interp is better than yours without looking like an egotist, but what if they just meant other versions of the game? They mention a world with no mega evolution (OG ruby and sapphire), and ANOTHER(Singular) world, but nothing else is mentiond via different games being different worlds. Fan theories arent discovered, but invented. They have no place in a verses debate. Left unseen details that might be real that would put a charecter a million times stronger should not be considered, unless its made clear in someway that you should interprite that way.

 

[Zeifyl]

The idea that its stated he made "All universes" is fine, but you would need PROOF (Not fanmade theories that we can debate about for days) that these are cannonly connected. The fact that every copy of gen 3 has an arceus is already very problamatic. IF every game was made by arceus, and they are all connected because of the link cable easter egg, why can i legitamately have 2 or more arceus in the same game simultaniosley? The link cable is a theory, so theres nothing i can debunk per say, as i cant tell you my interp is better than yours without looking like an egotist, but what if they just meant other versions of the game? They mention a world with no mega evolution (OG ruby and sapphire), and ANOTHER(Singular) world, but nothing else is mentiond via different games being different worlds. Fan theories arent discovered, but invented. They have no place in a verses debate. Left unseen details that might be real that would put a charecter a million times stronger should not be considered, unless its made clear in someway that you should interprite that way.

Arceus didn't create all universes. Arceus created the creator of all universes.

Furthermore, there is nothing wrong with having multiple of the physical manifestation of Arceus, since all those are is avatars, created to interact with the physical world. The true Arceus is a formless entity.

And even if the games aren't connected at all, and there truly is one Arceus per game, this is not grounds for a downgrade. In fact, those 300,000,000 games hardly matters in the calculation of Arceus' AP. The big ones there are Ultra Space, alternate timelines, and Reflection Cave, each of which, individually, puts Arceus in the uncountable range of 2-B.

 

[M4d30fInfiniteS0rr0w]

Arceus can fight an arceus, and 2 arcues can be in the same party. That is not him creating everything. And again, nothing states every copy of pokemon is an alt verse. again, the only 2 that are confirmed are a world without mega evolution (Og games) and a world with the other legendary (the other game). the mirror world, wich is anime exclusive btw, could easily be including these spaces. Using confirmed alts, Again, gives us every gen and version of that gen. So gen 1-4 have 3 games, which is 12. Already enough not to contridict the mirror realm statement. gen 5 has black 1 and 2 alongwith white, so thats now 16. 6 has 2, and 7 has 4, so currently 22. then, lets asume that all of these have an ultra beast realm and an alt timeline from that one episode, it would now be 88. Now add in palkia, dialga, and giratinas verse, so times 4. and lets say arceus's verse alone doubles that. we get a total of about 704. This would be a high 2-c at best. And if the one episode where ash was in a different timeline or the ultrabeats zone wasnt included in every game, it would be far lower. But saying that every game is a universe that arceus made when we have an arceus in every set is not reasonable. This isnt confirmed, and also is challnged by the basic fact that there is not just 1 arceus in every game. And taking the liberty to explain it away yourself instead of having a cannon explanation is also unreasonable, as im not contesting anything other than a theory you or some admin on this wiki made up.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Dude calm down. Address you arguments in a less aggressive tone. Anyway.

Addressing the One Arceus Per Copy
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/210930-pokemon-ultra-sun/75582048?page=1

"The one to create to the ancient world and Pokemon, Arceus!?"

"We will now discuss the tale of a certain trainer's strange experience. They're said to have went to the Ruins of Alph with the mythical Pokemon Arceus.
Then suddenly, their vision went dark, and they seemingly teleported to another location. They were in the far away Sinjoh Ruins. In these ruins, said to be the fusion of Sinnoh and Johto culture, there was a holy stage built to worship Arcues, called the Mystri Stage. Legends say that when Arceus gets on the stage, time, space, and anti-matter mix and create a new world."

"And so Arceus gives birth the god of time Dialga, the god of space Palkia, and the god of anti-matter Giratina."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hi6WyRP6Cog




Entralink
"Oh, someone showed up... Welcome to the Entralink."

"Hm?"

"Judging by the look of you, you don't seem to know where you are."

"This is an island called the Entralink. It's located in the center of the Unova region."

"The Entralink is a mysterious place where you can connect with someone's world."

"If you go to someone's world by passing through this island, you will be able to meet an adventurer in the world."

This supports that each game is its own universe.

Even if we bypass the Arceus part, he still created and stomped the creator of all parallel worlds.

This was all discussed here. https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2323538

 

[NeoZex6399]

This also confirms that the Pokémon Multiverse is composed of countless world.

 

[Zeifyl]

This also confirms that the Pokémon Multiverse is composed of countless world.

And considering Ultra Ruins is in an Alola, there is an exactly 0% chance that "worlds" in this context doesn't mean "universes".

 

[NeoZex6399]

>"Arceus can fight an arceus, and 2 arcues can be in the same party"

See: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Game_Mechanics

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Assuming "worlds" doesn't mean universes here would mean ignoring context. There aren't different planets. And it isn't just one big planet either as they use the words "various" and "worlds" in a plural sense.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

What? Ultra Ruins is totally not in Alola, or at least not this Alola. Legit the latest episode of the anime further backs this up.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Also the anime is seen as secondary canon and can used to both upgrade and downgrade the verse. Same with the Manga. As such information given through those mediums are in fact usable.

 

[NeoZex6399]

The term "world" generally means universe/reality in pokémon, for example:

"... ... Everything is ready for the creation of a new world. Now, all will end. And everything will begin. With this, the Red Chain made from the crystals of the three lake Pokémon. And this, the Red Chain I replicated with technological means... With these Red Chains I will pry open the portal to another dimension. I command that you unleash your power for me..."

~Cyrus (Pokémon Platinum)

"Gah! Even I, a Commander, only managed to buy us time? But that's fine. A child like you will never be able to stem the flow of time! Team Galactic will get the three legendary Pokémon of the lakes! With their power, we will create an entirely new universe! By now, Mars should have captured the Pokémon of Lake Verity..."

~Saturn (Pokémon Platinum)

 

[Zeifyl]

Even if you go for an extreme lowball, and only factor in a lowball for both Ultra Space and alternate timelines (limiting the number of lightyears Ultra Space is with a 64 bit integer), Arceus is still in the Decillion range (9 223 372 036 854 775 807 Light Years with an Ultra Wormhole on average every 250 Light Years, times one timeline per universe due to there being no way Palkia and Dialga hasn't created the same amount of stuff, plus Ultra Space itself = 1 361 129 467 683 753 853 558 350 524 547 721 Universal spacetime continuums).

 

[Zeifyl]

What? Ultra Ruins is totally not in Alola, or at least not this Alola. Legit the latest episode of the anime further backs this up.

I said in "An" Alola

EDIT: Sorry for double posting

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

My humble apologies, man. I thought you were the other guy lol.

 

[NeoZex6399]

Even if you go for an extreme lowball, and only factor in a lowball for both Ultra Space and alternate timelines (limiting the number of lightyears Ultra Space is with a 64 bit integer), Arceus is still in the Decillion range (9 223 372 036 854 775 807 Light Years with an Ultra Wormhole on average every 250 Light Years, times one timeline per universe due to there being no way Palkia and Dialga hasn't created the same amount of stuff = 1 361 129 467 683 753 853 558 350 524 547 720 Universal spacetime continuums).

That's a really big number.

Also apparently the universes in Pokémon are infinite, for example:

"...Ah, hello. You're here to read, too? Books are wonderful things. The thoughts of people written in books stretch beyond time and space. I was just reading a collection of letters written by an artist long ago. More precisely, they were written to the artist's younger brother. 'The stars above tantalize from across infinite space. Feeling their gaze from so far away, I am charmed again by life.' The artist must have come to a conclusion seeing the night sky... It's an affirmation of life. It's very moving. I imagine we'll see each other again at the Pokémon League. Take care."

~Lucian (Pokémon D/P/Pt)

 

[Kepekley23]

I completely, wholly and inversely agree with the OP.

 

[TriforcePower1]

The term "world" generally means universe/reality in pokémon, for example:

"... ... Everything is ready for the creation of a new world. Now, all will end. And everything will begin. With this, the Red Chain made from the crystals of the three lake Pokémon. And this, the Red Chain I replicated with technological means... With these Red Chains I will pry open the portal to another dimension. I command that you unleash your power for me..."

~Cyrus (Pokémon Platinum)

"Gah! Even I, a Commander, only managed to buy us time? But that's fine. A child like you will never be able to stem the flow of time! Team Galactic will get the three legendary Pokémon of the lakes! With their power, we will create an entirely new universe! By now, Mars should have captured the Pokémon of Lake Verity..."

~Saturn (Pokémon Platinum)

The same thing should apply to Zelda ovo

Anyway, I agree with Cal and Dragon here

 

[Kepekley23]

To be serious, however, Dragon is completely right here. Palkia's feat is already 2-B just by itself.

 

[NeoZex6399]

The same thing should apply to Zelda ovo

Anyway, I agree with Cal and Dragon here

Maybe it's true, BOTW's art book can confirm it.

 

[Zeifyl]

And to add to all this, the existence of Rainbow Rocket confirms that every generation is linked as well.

 

[Dragopentling]

why isn't this thread closed yet?

There's always been several other previous threads that discussed a similar downgrade and already debuked.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

I would support a downgrade just to spite Cal OvO.

No but seriously, this alone debunks the notion of there being multiple Arceus. It's the same one.