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Arceus/Creation Trio Hax Additions

ProfessorKukui4Life

ProfessorKukui4Life

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I recently just realized this and, if no one has any problems with the proposed hax, they should be guranteed, if not, perfectly acceptable to add for Arceus. Most of this will be coming from the Hoopa movie as well. Anyways, here are some hax that I think should be okay for Arceus to have:

-Sealing and can nullify it (Hoopa was sealed away in the Prison Bottle by Ghris, who created and used the bottle using a fragment of Arceus's power; Barza used his fragment of Arceus's energy to break the seal on the bottle set by Ghris)

-Life Manipulation (Ghris used his power from Arceus to grow plants; the Jewel of Life can restore life to an entire region with a mere glow)

-Nature Manipulation (According to Mary, Ghris combined his power with the Fire, Water and Ground type plates to create the Prisom Bottle, whcih are described as "The 3 Great Forces of Nature".)

-Can Nullify Absorbtion or Existence Erasure (Arceus casually halted and then destroyed the distortion in space-time made by Hoopa near the end of the movie, which was absorbing/erasing everything it came into contact with.)

-Possibly Resistance to Possession (His power was used to not only seal, but surpress Hoopa's Darkness, which could posess targets, even Hoopa himself, fairly easily)

-Can possibly decrease the power of someones abilities (When Hoopa got sealed away, his power was limited as Confined Hoopa and could not use his hax to the same extent as Unbound Hoopa to the point where Confined Hoopa could only summon with his rings but not pass through them and could not summon as many things as when Unbound.)

And here are some Bonus ones that I think should be discussed further, one for the Creation Trio:

- Apparently, from what Barza said, he and Mary's ancestors were similar to their grandfather Ghris and that they could communicate with Arceus prior to Arceus giving them power in return. Taking this seriously, we are considering these people to have abilities similar to Damos and Sheena from Jewel of Life. Since they can communicate with a being who's beyond space, time, and...well..everything itself, what can we make of this?

Now for the Creation Trio

-While stumbling back on the Giratina movie, there was something interesting I noticed Newton, a professor in the movie, stated about the Distortion World:

"When there are imbalances in the real world....this world the corrects them to maintain the balance between Time and Space...whenever this occurs, a black-cloud appears..."

Basically to make the story shorter, Newton is saying that if anything happens to Time and Space, aka Dialga and Palkia, what would effect or harm them would be redirected to Giratina's Distortion World to keep both safe and that would then create a pollution cloud. And as seen in the movie, Giratinas world is full of them. Its why it got very pissed at Dialga and Palkia because of its home being polluted to protect them. But back to my point, it would seem Time (Dialga) and Space (Palkia) in the pokemon verse cannot be destroyed by anything (sans Arceus) until the Distortion World is out of the picture because whatever happens to Time and Space will just effect Giratinas world instead. So wouldnt this give Dialga and Palkia some kind of advanced immortality? If its not acceptable im perfectly fine about that.

Any thoughts?
 
The decrease of power comes from the sealing in my understanding, so those two abilities would be the same, I think (so only sealing?).

Than again that in itself is questionable. Just because someone can use your power to do something doesn't mean you can do it. For example in a verse with magic every magician can produce the mana that can be used to produce every spell, but not every magician can practically cast every spell.


In regards to resistance to possession: If only his power was used and he himself wasn't present I don't see why he would need that. In the first place Arceus himself is so above Hoopa that I don't see why the latter would ever have a chance of actually targeting him, so I don't think that ability is needed to explain what happened.


Resistance to existence erasure: The void manipulation page explicitely mentions that no character should have resistance to this ability. So obviously this is a no.


To the additions:

1. that they have telepathy. Not more.

2. No. This only refers to the distortion world supporting the stability of the real world, not that it is healing Palkia and Dialga or anything. Nothing in that direction is actually said.
 
Kk im fine with that too.

Well I highly doubt that a bunch of humans can learn to use the god of the verses power in ways that even the god tier themselves don't know how too. And Arceus is giving them the power to do so in the first place so he should know how to do them if he's passing it on to other life forms. But i'll wait for more input on this.

Fair enough but i'll wait for more input.

Im fine if its not existence erasure because I wasnt sure which it would be. Would it still be absorbtion?

Yes but the level of telepathy is what I was trying to get talked about. How strong would it be since they can communicate with someone whos beyond existence?

I know it wouldnt heal Dialga and Palkia but what I wanted to know is if would keep them alive since the distortion world uses that function to keep Time and Space in balance. This even applied to them when they fought in the Unown's dimension outside of the normal human universe. And their fighting was causing Time and Space to collide with one another.
 
Regarding the absorption: I haven't watched the movie, so I go by how you described it.

If he "halted and then destroyed the distortion in space-time" then that sounds to me like he just used his spacetime manipulation to stop it. (actually isn't that part of the reasoning given for arceus spacetime manipulation?)

In regards to telepathy: Strong is the wrong word here. What this means is that they have a large range. Then again do we really know that they communicate with it while is is outside of the universe? I am not sure where exactly arceus is usually chilling around, if it has nothing to do. Thought the spear pillars or something.


Regarding distortion world: As said I don't think it affects them at all. I only think it stabilizes the world, not affect the pokémon.
 
Well, in the main games it is stated that Giratina is literally the distortion world, in addition Cyrus says that the universe can not be redone or altered while the distortion world remains in existence, not even with the power of the Red Chains along with Palkia and Dialga .

It could be a possible resistance to Reality Warping by Giratina
 
Im not sure but it could be part of the explanation. Still, even if that was the case, he would still be given resistance to absorbtion period if we go by what Hoopa did no? I mean not even Dialga and Palkia's space-time hax could do a thing against it yet Arceus's stopped it dead in its tracks to prevent it from absorbing anything else and then dispersed it later on. Now obviously Arceus's abilities are light years ahead of the trio's but if Hoopa's distortion is great enough so that is weaker than Arceus's but better than the trio's, it could give him a kind of resistance to him or his power being absorbed.

Well based on what Barza said to Ash, it was his and Mary's ancestors that were able to communicate with Arceus so that implies generations upon generations in the past. I see no reason for Arceus to be around instead of outside the multiverse at that time.

Maybe but the problem here is that Dialga and Palkia are quite literally time and space itself from what we already are aware of. And if Newton is referring to all of time and space, then that would mean he's referring to both them and the verse being alive for as long as the Distortion World remains to take in whatever damage would be against them.
 
Dialga and Palkia should have fear inducement due to the Intimidator IQ skill they both have as bosses in PMD:EoT/D/S, which can scare the opponent into not moving. I forget, but I think Uxie has this as well.
 
@Kukui: Unless he tanked an attack that he usually should not endure, without using his abilities to conter I see no reason to hand out resistances.


Thing is if you don't know where he was that is a weak argument. Do we even know that they could realy reach arceus at any given time they liked and not just when they where relatively close to it?


They are representing time and space, and time and space are dependend of their existence, but they are not the same as that. It is not like opening a whole in space would hurt palkia for example.

The world and the distortion world have a relationship where the distortion world acts as pillar and supports the world to prevent it from collapsing, which is exactly what the given statement refers to.

Applying that to the pokémon without it ever being mentioned is extremely far-fetched.

@cal: that is pretty off-topic... Either way is that really a supernatural ability or just the representation of the fact that, well..., normal pokémon are pretty scared of the god entities appearing before them? It kinda makes sense that they would be...
 
It's an IQ skill that anyone with a high enough IQ, even the main party and their lackeys, can get so...no.

Mentioning it instead of the normal topic because I don't really care about the CT anymore, given that I normally screw up with them.
 
From name alone it doesn't sound like Fear Inducement, just typically striking fear into someone.
 
Maybe...i'll see what others say but that is a good point. Maybe it means he can stop/nullify absorbtion then instead of being resistant to it?

Well again these people are strikingly similar to Sheena and Damos and their telepathy is quite good, good enough to communicate with Dialga and Palkia from different universes without being physically present within them. Furthermore, we'd have to give a reason to why Arceus would be on earth in the first place when its supposed to be dormant in its own realm like the lore of the verse says it is and IIRC its not like each person with Arceus's power has to get it directly from Arceus themselves. Barza, Mary and several other children in Arche Valley were able to use the power they got from Arceus without ever even meeting him and we know they never meet him as Arceus's only appearance in the Hoopa movie is the very first time they get to see him in person. For about 10 seconds at best.

Of course it wouldnt but the problem with that example is opening a hole in space doesnt affect space as a whole. We're supposed to be considering threats that are able to affect the entirety of time and space period, like if Dialga and Palkia were to ever face someone who could threaten their very existence and if ever harmed the distortion world would take in whatever damage they would get so time and space don't get unbalanced. The only acception to this is Arceus for obvious reasoning. Depending on how we treat the Dialga/Palkia and Time/Space relationship, keeping balance between both forces would logically keep the balance with Dialga and Palkia no?
 
NeoZex6399 said:
Why Dialga and Palkia are not equipped with their respective objects?

I say this because when Arceus creates them they come equipped with orbs.
Click to expand...
I've been meaning to ask about that myself. Why aren't the Adamant and Lustrous Orbs listed? They specifically give their respective Mons a boost to their STAB attacks. Griseous Orb does the same with Giratina's so I don't get why that isn't mentioned there either. To take it a step further the Plates do the same with their respective Types.
 
@Kukui

Dialga and Palkia also have to have Life Manipulation as Cyrus in the manga directly says that Dialga is going to recreate life again.

P.D. Possibly Arceus could also have Chaos Manipulation, due to being "a whirlwind of chaos and confusion where all things are one"

Pokemon DP vol05 p111-me
 
Which parts of this did DontTalk accept?
 
The Creation Trio part likely still needs discussing but it would seem everything else for Arceus has been accepted.

Could I unlock his profile and add the suggested abilities?
 
I don't agree with any of these additions.

Just because he used Arceus's energies to create the bottle doesn't mean Arceus gets it by default. It's backwards scaling again.

You can use nuclear power to create steam by heating water, but it's nigh-impossible to generate nuclear energy with steam alone. Unless Arceus has demonstrated the ability to seal his foes by himself, then it shouldn't be added.

The other abilities fall squarely under Arceus's existing space-time manipulation, reality warping, and creation powers.
 
Yes it does because Ghris, Mary and Barza were given the specific abilities to do that by Arceus and its strange to suggest a human can use a power in a way the god tier that gave them the ability in the first place cannot. Especially since in order to create the sealing bottle you need Arceus period. You need his energy and his type plates to do so, which was how Ghris made the bottle in the first place.

And now that I remember, its not like Arceus hasnt shown sealing before. He sealed the creation trio into their own sealed forms and gave the lake trio the power to bind Dialga/Palkia.

And how is stopping something from being absorbed fall under space-time hax?
 
@Professor

1) Mind citing that scene from the movie? I'm skimming through it and I can't find it.

2) As you said, it was a space-time distortion, which would be easy for Arceus to undo with his existing powers.
 
Kaltias said:
@Kukui
You said yourself that it was a space-time distortion
Click to expand...
Yes but Hoopa's space-time distortion wasn't merely a normal one, it was absorbing everything it came into contact with. It even absorbed attacks from the creation trio. Not that something like this would affect Arceus himself anyway, but wouldnt him halting it and then dispersing it casually mean he can nullify said absorbing?
 
@Professor

That's just a more powerful space-time rift then. It doesn't mean it's beyond anything that he already has.
 
That's something that a real life black hole could do. As Reppu pointed out, it's just a stronger space-time manipulation
 
My fault for not getting back to this, was kind of busy.

Anyways, alright i'll concede on the absorbtion point then as that is just even stronger space-time manip (tho I guess a mention of this wouldnt hurt but again its not neccessary in the slightest).

As for the stuff about Ghris, Barza, Mary and Arceus, here you go.

It starts at 26:30. When Ash gets reminded about Arceus after Clemont comments on him being "a very powerful man", Barza mentions that their ancestors were able to communicate with Arceus. And in return, Arceus granted them powers, which Ghris was able to master so he could use said power to seal away Hoopa Unbound. And if you go here to Serebii , it notes that Barza and Mary's family are actually connected to Arceus's power through their neckclaces. Same thing here on Bulbpedia which mentions all of the powers their family has are from Arceus.

And to support this more, even after getting powers from Arceus, Ghris still required the fire, ground and water life plates from Arceus in the past to use their powers of nature to originally create the prison bottle (Barza and Mary didnt need the plates however but thats only because the power of the plates still existed in Dahara Tower, they just needed the 3 types of Pokemon to activate them).

So if no further objections, this means all of the powers and abilities these people can do with Arceus's power literally get it from Arceus period.
 
@Kukui

I'm still opposed to the use of backwards scaling. Yes, it's stated that Arceus granted Ghris's ancestor that power, but what creators are able to give does not always equal what they're capable of.

For example, Kaguya bestowed the power of chakra to her sons, but she herself isn't able to use the Chibaku Tensei technique they devised.

In addition, you're interpreting "connected" as "channeled". Yes, Arceus granted them power. But never was it mentioned that Arceus was the one who granted them the power to seal things, it was just mentioned that Arceus granted them special mysterious abilities due to their ability to communicate with it. The statement just means that the source of their powers came from Arceus's blessing, not that Arceus himself can seal things.
 
Well, about Arceus and the humans, I agree with Kukui here. Arceus is the God of his verse. Humans are humans, if arceus gave a normal human any ability, he himself should scale to whatever that human can do (because he is a "normal human with Arceus'powers" not a "superhuman with powers himself with Arceus' powers). Any supernatural thing the human can do, comes from arceus.
 
I think that Reppuzan makes sense.
 
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