• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Arceus created the concepts of space and time

Status
Not open for further replies.
DaFritzi

DaFritzi

590
35
I don't know if this has been discussed before, if so please excuse it.

Arceus has created the concepts of space and time. This would imply that prior to Arceus creating them there was no time and no space.

Therefore there was no universe/multiverse, there was nothing, not even dimensions (since for them to exist there needs to be a concept of space). Wouldn't existing in a void without dimensions make Arceus outerversal? For existing where no dimensions are he would have needed to stand above dimensions in general.

I'm curious on other opinions on this topic.
 
I don't believe the existence of higher-dimensional space beyond four dimensions has been confirmed in Pokemon thus far, so I don't think we'll be getting 1-A Arceus any time soon.
 
Outerversal, what? You do know that outerversal characters are beyond conceptualizations of dimensions right, what arceus created was a 4-D Multiverse, not a infinite dimensional multiverse much less outerversal which is beyond that, a lot of characters have create universe/multiverses, but we don't put them at outerversal, that's ridiculous unless they are proven to be beyond the concept of dimensions altogether.
 
I do know that the pokemon multiverse Arceus created is assumed to be 4-D.

But the void Arceus was in was not 4-D, it was not hyperdimensional either, rather it lacked the concept of dimensions at all. The existence of dimensions came when Arceus created the concept of space (dimensions are a property of space).

What differs Arceus from others who created multiverses is the fact that he created the first multiversal spacetime continuum in his verse as well as the requirements needed for multiverses to exist at all. And doing so requires him to do it from outside of it (because where else would he have been). And outside is only the outerversal void where spacetime constructs regardless of the dimensional scale are exist in.

Or in other words taking the definition of 1-A this wiki has:

Basically, a being or an object which is outside and beyond all concepts of time and space.

Arceus created those concepts, they did not exist before him, whereelse would he have been if not outside of them.


However if all of you are against this, I guess I'll have to accept it.
 
@DaFritzi

I'm sorry, but a number of characters have existed in a void before concepts existed.

For example, Digimon's God accomplished the exact same feat, but is only 2-A for creating a multiverse with infinite timelines, despite predating literally everything else except for ENIAC, which formed the concept of existence in the Digital World in the first place.
 
What Reppuzan said many beings existed in a void before concepts, putting them at outversal because they predate concepts is ridculous though, as for one we have to go by feats, which is the universe/multiversal they created, and what level of dimensions it has, you can't put every character who existed before the creation of universe at outversal when they don't have the feats to back it up, simply existing in a void before concepts is =/= being beyond concepts.
 
So you are not beyond the concepts of space and time even if you created them?

This seems to contradict logic, but I'll have to accept it.

So what you meant is in order for Arceus to become 1-A the concept of space he created would need to be able of containing a hyperverse?
 
Creating 4-D space doesn't mean you are altogether beyond the concept of space, you would have be beyond such things as dimensions, infinite dimensions would be trivial to outerversal characters, such characters can't be conceptualized.

And again predating something doesn't mean you're beyond it, what's that's guys name from doctor strange from the MCU, he predates time yet he isn't beyond it.
 
@Celestial Pegasus

That's Dormammu.

@DaFritzi

In order to be 1-A, you have to transcend all concept of dimensions in the first place.

For example, the characters of Dies Irae utilize Taikyoku, which is the source of all reality and dimensional space, and subsequently transcend all dimensional space over the course of the story.
 
Ok, no tier upgrade, but what about other abilities that derive from him existing prior to space, time and dimensions.

- Able to exist in the Outerverse (a dimensionless void outside of the multiverse) (he must have been there since there was nothing else prior to him creating said concepts)

- Able to exist without dimensions, therefore without matter (without the concept of space there can be no matter) (consequence destroying the matter Arceus is made of does not hurt him, same with destroying the space-time he is in (would mean immune to everything low-godly can regenerate you from), also 4-D space/time manipulation would have little to no effect)

- Able to leave the multiverse (since he once was in the outerverse, he should be able to return there) (consequence he can flee from battles or leave the multiverse and manipulate it from the outside)

- Able to BFR his opponents into the outerverse (he already has BFR this would only amp the scale of it, all opponents who have not shown to able to exist in the outerverse/without dimensions would lose instantly) Or is his BFR already at that level, only the description doesn't state it?

Or did he lose those abilities when he manifested the original spirit into what we know as Arceus. Please correct me if I made a mistake, but please also think it through. I believe my reasoning makes sense.

Would be very happy if those could be added to Arceus profile, still I will accept it if you are against it.
 
@DaFritzi

However, in order to transcend the concept of dimensions, you would have to confirm that there is infinite dimensional space in the first place. The Pokeverse has yet to display dimensionality beyond four dimensions, so we can't say he exists in Outerversal space since that would imply that there is in fact an infinite number of dimensions.
 
He actually does have one good point in there. Arceus isn't Arceus, per se. Arceus itself is the manifestation of the original spirit. If so, should non corporeality and/or his regen be bumped up to Low Godly due to the fact that the Original Spirit can just fashion up a new body in theory.
 
@Kukui. Dude. Diamond and Pearl. Time and Space. Kinda obvious lol.

@Ever. Found it. The Hiker's stories when you show him Arceus.
 
@Rep I accept your first statement, but I have to disagree with your second one.

This wikis definition of outerverse:

This "space" in which there is no dimension can be the background for any dimensional space. Within such a dimensionless "space", a dimensional structure with any number of dimensions can be placed, because there are no restrictions regarding dimensions.

This means that any space-time construct is placed in the outerverse, should one exist in said fiction. Also dimensions are a property of space.

So prior to Arceus creating the concept of space, there were no dimensions, there was no multiverse.

Which further means that by stating that a being existed before all dimensional constructs (that those are only 4-D in the end doesn't matter here) they also state that there must be something those dimensional constructs can be placed in. And this "space" those can be placed in matches this wikis definition of outerverse.
 
@Cal

Having read it, it doesn't really imply that Arceus is an avatar of the Original Spirit or anything, just that he's the OS given physical form.
 
Oh. No. I didn't mean that Arceus wasn't the original one, or simply an avatar. Just that the physical form is just a manifestation. I interpreted it as just the fact that Arceus has more form than the llama god itself, and that if the body is destroyed, the OS isn't.
 
Also, something else I got out of that is that Arceus has its spirit inside every human and Pokemon. Could that be like how some of the SMT characters can only be permanently destroyed if their followers are too?
 
@cal

I'm not so sure about this Reliant Immortality and Regenerationn thing you're proposing. I know the anime was rife with PIS, but Arceus was brought to the point of death even though humans were alive during the Jewel of Life.
 
That likely shouldn't be an argument. Arceus already is a type 4 immortal. He shouldn't have been brought to near death at all. Also, that is the most PIS movie in Pokemon's history. I don't think any other legendary other than Giratina was shown with that disrespect.
 
Well why wouldnt it be an NLF? If what your saying was true then that would mean even if Arceus gets "killed" in a fight, as long as the Pokeverse survives he'd keep coming back. Unless am I interpreting it wrong?

Also IIRC when Arceus was "Dying" in the movie Ash and the others immediately started to get erased from existence. Brock even said something like "We're Alive!" when they started remateralizing back but I could be wrong.
 
@Rep. no worries. For me, the anime goes 1, 2, 7. Because Serena will never be Misty.

@Kukui. You're not interpreting it incorrectly. That's just not an NLF. There's already characters with that immortality. Also, the gang was being "erased" (quotation marks because they were being returned to the present iirc) because of timey wimey paradoxes, given that Arceus' death doesn't give them a reason to go back.
 
Ah k. My apologies too I didnt know that kind of Immortality was a thing. However im not sure if they were being returned or not because given Brock's reaction to them no longer disapeering, if they were just going back to the present he especially shouldnt have been saying stuff like "We're alive!" or something like that.

PS: Lillie>>>Serena and Misty :p
 
Back to the topic, what do we do with Arceus and the Original Spirit.

I agree with cal on the non-corporeal and low-godly regen on the arceus profile, it should be explained though that those derive from Arceus being a manifestation of the OS.

What do you say about my other suggestions, cal? (reasoning above)

- Able to exist in the Outerverse (dimensionless void outside of the multiverse)

- Able to leave the multiverse

- Able to BFR his opponents into the outerverse (dimensionless void outside of the multiverse)
 
I obviously agree with the rest of the staff that creating 4-D spacetime continuums is nowhere near tier 1-A.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

JustChari
Question about qualitative superiorty
Replies
3
Views
2K
Digital_Franz
Digital_Franz
Everything12
  • Locked
Arceus Qualitative Upgrade
2
Replies
58
Views
14K
LephyrTheRevanchist
LephyrTheRevanchist
Everything12
Arceus Avatar Tiering Issue Solution?
Replies
30
Views
5K
TheGreatJedi13
TheGreatJedi13
CNBA3
Would this give greater range? (Higher Dimensions)
Replies
6
Views
816
ActuallySpaceMan42
ActuallySpaceMan42
StrymULTRA
Arceus and the Jewel of Fake Interviews
Replies
30
Views
4K
Imaginym
Imaginym
Back
Top