• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Arceus and Chaos

15,130
6,905
Here we go again with another Arceus ability addition as we already didn't had enough threads for that. Basically here is a pretty interesting info I found on True Form Arceus which I'd like to show here. Let's take the Original One again:

In the beginning, there was only a churning turmoil of chaos.
At the heart of chaos, where all things became one, appeared an Egg.
Having tumbled from the vortex, the Egg gave rise to the Original One.
From itself, two beings the Original One did make.
Time started to spin. Space began to expand.
From itself again, three living things the Original One did make.
The two beings wished, and from them, matter came to be.
The three living things wished, and from them, spirit came to be.
The world created, the Original One took to unyielding sleep...

Basically the egg from where Arceus was from is made of chaos, and thus Arceus should logically be made of said chaos.

But what is the chaos in this context? Simple, pure nothingness. Let's take the Platinum, BW and B2W2 Pokédex entries:

It is said to have emerged from an egg in a place where there was nothing, then shaped the world.

In short, chaos and nothingness are pretty much related to each other. This is a pretty blatant reference to the Greek and Biblical tradition, where the chaos was simply the state of pure void that predates existence.

What am I trying to say? True Form Arceus should get Type 2 Nonexistence Physiology, also due of the description of said ability:

2: Idealistic Nonexistence: The lack of absolutely everything to a state of nonexistence at a conceptual level. Such a state defies even the most basic logical principles and is unknowable in the truest form, as it is not a state at all. Such entities are typically presented as primordial voids or pure emptiness, or any abstract state which precedes or opposes the state of existence on all levels. In terms of binary, this would be something that is neither 1 nor 0, where 1 is existence and 0 is nonexistence.
Arceus is basically this, the void that predates existence and its concepts (basically the Creation and Lake Trios) other than being the Reality of all the Pokémon verse. It should also get Void Manipulation since PokeGods are shown to manipulate what they embody.
 
correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't creation also just an aspect of Arceus? Couldn't embodying both nothingness and everything qualify for some sort of transduality as well?
 
correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't creation also just an aspect of Arceus? Couldn't embodying both nothingness and everything qualify for some sort of transduality as well?
Nope, Arceus is also the Reality of the Pokémon verse (CT and LT) other than the Void that predates it. They're pretty much unrelated.
 
I want to wait till the Pokémon Gods Blog is complete so we can get a more accurate look at what this means with the Japanese text.

However, if we take what the Opening Post currently says. Then no, I disagree with this. Not enough evidence for Non-existent Physiology Type 2.
 
However, if we take what the Opening Post currently says. Then no, I disagree with this. Not enough evidence for Non-existent Physiology Type 2.
Tho is weird, since the Egg is actually made of the Chaos/Void. Wouldn't that hint that Arceus is made of such as well?
 
Here we go again with another Arceus ability addition as we already didn't had enough threads for that. Basically here is a pretty interesting info I found on True Form Arceus which I'd like to show here. Let's take the Original One again:

In the beginning, there was only a churning turmoil of chaos.
At the heart of chaos, where all things became one, appeared an Egg.
Having tumbled from the vortex, the Egg gave rise to the Original One.
From itself, two beings the Original One did make.
Time started to spin. Space began to expand.
From itself again, three living things the Original One did make.
The two beings wished, and from them, matter came to be.
The three living things wished, and from them, spirit came to be.
The world created, the Original One took to unyielding sleep...

Basically the egg from where Arceus was from is made of chaos, and thus Arceus should logically be made of said chaos.

But what is the chaos in this context? Simple, pure nothingness. Let's take the Platinum, BW and B2W2 Pokédex entries:

It is said to have emerged from an egg in a place where there was nothing, then shaped the world.

In short, chaos and nothingness are pretty much related to each other. This is a pretty blatant reference to the Greek and Biblical tradition, where the chaos was simply the state of pure void that predates existence.

What am I trying to say? True Form Arceus should get Type 2 Nonexistence Physiology, also due of the description of said ability:

2: Idealistic Nonexistence: The lack of absolutely everything to a state of nonexistence at a conceptual level. Such a state defies even the most basic logical principles and is unknowable in the truest form, as it is not a state at all. Such entities are typically presented as primordial voids or pure emptiness, or any abstract state which precedes or opposes the state of existence on all levels. In terms of binary, this would be something that is neither 1 nor 0, where 1 is existence and 0 is nonexistence.
Arceus is basically this, the void that predates existence and its concepts (basically the Creation and Lake Trios) other than being the Reality of all the Pokémon verse. It should also get Void Manipulation since PokeGods are shown to manipulate what they embody.
This is NEP 1, it refers to metaphysical states both in the wikipedia definition of void and vsbattles' def. of NEP 1. They match perfectly. But I will wait for others to say.
 
This is NEP 1, it refers to metaphysical states both in the wikipedia definition of void and vsbattles' def. of NEP 1. They match perfectly. But I will wait for others to say.
Except that for Type 1 NEP to be a thing concepts should already exist, while in Arceus' case they don't yet.
 
That part of the nep 2 is really just a example who tipically has it, it is not an actual requirement, is been discussed before.

You need to match the requirements of the rest of the text to get it, simple being a primordial void that lacks some concepts is not enough as far as I know.

you have to lack more important concepts like nil lacking "something".

But I'm not very knowledgeable on nep so maybe it could work, but I assume that blog would explain it so LeT'S WAit fOR bloG.
 
NEP 2???
Oh boy Arceus is becoming unstoppable
images

I agree with the CRT btw
 
Okay so with the extra context this still ain't nep2, cause just predating something doesn't mean you lack it wholly, and hell the existence of chaos itself forming Arceus implies that it shouldn't be nep2 cause you have to lack everything up to/including the conceptual level
 
Okay so with the extra context this still ain't nep2, cause just predating something doesn't mean you lack it wholly, and hell the existence of chaos itself forming Arceus implies that it shouldn't be nep2 cause you have to lack everything up to/including the conceptual level
This kinda of ignores what said. Chaos here is the pure void before existence due of it being a reference to the mythologies which treat chaos as such. Plus the Pokédex entry confirms it as it straight up says that there was simply nothing before Arceus came in.
 
This kinda of ignores what said. Chaos here is the pure void before existence due of it being a reference to the mythologies which treat chaos as such. Plus the Pokédex entry confirms it as it straight up says that there was simply nothing before Arceus came in.
Firstly you cant use mythology to prove a point without showing that that is the source that is being drawn from for the whole series or for that particular area, and even then being called a pure void is not enough to be nep2 hell while the profiles were still here greek chaos wasn't nep2.
 
Firstly you cant use mythology to prove a point without showing that that is the source that is being drawn from for the whole series or for that particular area, and even then being called a pure void is not enough to be nep2 hell while the profiles were still here greek chaos wasn't nep2.
Absolutely.
 
Firstly you cant use mythology to prove a point without showing that that is the source that is being drawn from for the whole series or for that particular area, and even then being called a pure void is not enough to be nep2 hell while the profiles were still here greek chaos wasn't nep2.
I said that it was a reference, since Chaos and Void were used as the same thing in Pokémon like it was in Greek Mythology. I know that Greek chaos isn't Type 2 NEP, but Pokémon references it for its own Chaos, which is Type 2 because of it predating the concepts of the reality.
 
Existing before=/= existing outside out just cause a number predates a set doesn't mean it isn't included in it
 
Existing before=/= existing outside out just cause a number predates a set doesn't mean it isn't included in it
False Equivalence. Before the Concepts that shape the multiverse, there was logically nothing. What else should've been before the Creation Trio and Lake Trio except Arceus, who itself is made of said nothingness? Plus, Type 2 NEP description on this very site exactly references to the primordial voids before the concepts that shape existence.
 
actually, wait just remembered that Giratina is anti-existence and Palkia and Dialga are existence, and so with Arceus being neither of them he would qualify for the latter half of nep2
 
I want to wait till the Pokémon Gods Blog is complete so we can get a more accurate look at what this means with the Japanese text.

However, if we take what the Opening Post currently says. Then no, I disagree with this. Not enough evidence for Non-existent Physiology Type 2.
In a way the Arceus myths are the ones with the most amount of changes from the source material, from what I could see (At least from the games, the biggest change in context remains the Viz translation of D&P Adventures)
 
actually, wait just remembered that Giratina is anti-existence and Palkia and Dialga are existence, and so with Arceus being neither of them he would qualify for the latter half of nep2
Yeah I was going to bring that up
Also The Void in Pokemon exists outside of Arceus's Avatars dimension which contains The Creation trio so it both predates and exists outside of it
 
I thought about this justification for Type 2 NEP if this goes throught

(Embodies chaos, which is the primordial void that predates the Pokémon Reality and the concepts that shape it)

Is it good?
 
In a way the Arceus myths are the ones with the most amount of changes from the source material, from what I could see (At least from the games, the biggest change in context remains the Viz translation of D&P Adventures)
Any opinion on this CRT tho?
 
Back
Top