AP Negating Power Nullification

[YungManzi]

Introductio

In a recent VS thread, a topic has been brought up regarding how we treat Power Nullification and Resistance to it, here.

The issue stems from whether or not an ability which can negate AP can also be applied to power nullification scaling based on how the verse in question treats it, and if that makes it inherently superior to power nullification which relies on AP.

Now let's get started.

My Argument
Since the argument stemmed directly from Katekyo Hitman Rebor, I'll use that to present my case. (I also don't know of any other verses that do this)

Sky flame users such as Tsunayoshi Sawada have power nullification via turning their opponent's attacks into stone (Aka Petrification). You cannot overpower your attack being turned into stone, so it should be superior to other forms of power nullification which can be overcome with superior AP.

Counterargument
Petrification is not Power Nullification. You cannot equate the two.

My Rebuttal
In the story it is called power nullification alongside Rain Flames (Such as what Takeshi Yamamoto uses), which have the effect of weakening or negating attacks. It is also treated similarly in terms of nullification and resistance. The "Harmony" aspect of the Sky Flame has been shown to work against other flames, box weapons, and even black holes (Explanation of the harmony attribute here, It being shown to work against black holes, Tsuna states that his Harmony flame wouldn't defeat Daemo, Xanxus is shown nullifiying an attack not just a box weapo, Byakuran negates Tsuna's attack using the sky harmony element, and finally; just like other power nullification in the franchise people who are considerably stronger can resist it seen when byakuran's dragon wasn't turned into stone upon his first clash with Mantello di Vongola Primo but began crumbling away after Tsuna's power up, Seen here)

So, what's the consensus here? Should power nullification which negates AP be considered to be above standard power nullification automatically; and what would constitute as "AP negating Power Nullification"? Would this be enough?

 

[YungManzi]

Finally done. This was a lot...

 

[YungManzi]

Lil bitty bump.

 

[DontTalkDT]

You cannot overpower your attack being turned into stone, so it should be superior to other forms of power nullification which can be overcome with superior AP.

Don't really know the verse and I don't quite get what is debated, but but certainly you can overpower your attacks being turned to stone via AP.

After all the petrification power surely can't turn an infinite amount of stuff to stone at once. So if you throw more stuff at it than it can turn to stone at once you would have beaten it via AP.

 

[YungManzi]

Uh, that's not AP. That's area.

That's like saying you can overpower matter manipulation by throwing more matter. Which technically isn't false but doesn't have much to do with pure AP.

 

[Wokistan]

I think it would depend on the mechanics of the ability. Some power null works around sorta smothering the opponent's power with your own, which should be beatable via AP. Other power null works more like Nicol Bolas, Culexus Assassi, or Oryx, the Taken King, where the user is cut off from their own ability or has some integral part of them stripped away from them. That sort of thing I wouldn't think would be beaten by AP.

 

[DontTalkDT]

If you are turning energy into stone (which I assumed is what that technique was supposed to do) then energy is the "amount of stuff" that the power acts on.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I think it would depend on the mechanics of the ability...

I mean, yes, more or less that. Is that what that thread was about?

We relatively recently had a thread were the result was just that, no?

 

[YungManzi]

Other power null works more like Nicol Bolas, Culexus Assassi, or Oryx, the Taken King, where the user is cut off from their own ability or has some integral part of them stripped away from them. That sort of thing I wouldn't think would be beaten by AP.

I thought we always assumed that kind of power null to rely on AP as well. The power nullifcation page really doesn't make much of a distinction between power null which relies on AP and power null which doesn't.

 

[Wokistan]

why would it rely on AP for you to just be unable to access your own stuff, or for your abilities to no longer exist?

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I'm reading this but why is turning an attack to stone power nullification, that's transmuation. You're not nullifying the attack, you're changing it's composition so that it can't harm you.

It will be like a character changing bullets into a butterflies to not be harmed.

 

[YungManzi]

I actually disagree with that interpretation, it's just, the page itself doesn't make much of a distinction.

And what do you think about the second part of this argument, do you think we should consider Power null which relies on AP< Power null which doesn't rely on AP?

 

[YungManzi]

I'm reading this but why is turning an attack to stone power nullification, that's transmuation. You're not nullifying the attack, you're changing it's composition so that it can't harm you.
It will be like a character changing bullets into a butterflies to not be harmed.

Same way TSB's in Naruto are matter manipulation with Power Nullification qualities. Sky flames are Transmutation with Power Nullification qualities.

 

[Andytrenom]

They will be better on a functional level, but I don't think we would, say, consider them as direct progression in a ranking system or something

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Perhaps it's just my own personal take on power null. I always saw it as something that pervents a user from using their abilities. But I see now that stopping an attack or making an attack useless can also be considered a form of power nullification, even if it is through transmuation or erasure (TSB).

But to your question: I think powernull that is based on AP is inferior to powernull that doesn't rely on AP. My reasoning for that is that, with the latter ability, someone who is weaker can use that attack on somoene stronger (as long as they have been shown to PN an attack of that caliber).

 

[YungManzi]

Bumpy Wumpy Stumpy.

 

[Ayewale]

It's transmutation, not power nuliification. Simple.

 

[YungManzi]

Okay. I'll give another example.

Yogiri Takatou has Power Nullification via being able to inflict his 2-B conceptual Instant Death onto magic and other abilities.

If someone were to resist their power being killed by him, would we say that any other 2-B power nullification with higher scaling should be able to overcome that resistance?

 

[YungManzi]

And by 'Higher Scaling' I only mean being higher in the 2-B tier.

 

[Wokistan]

Given that he uses his death power to do that it would make more sense to resist death manip there

 

[YungManzi]

But just because you resist death, doesn't mean your power/ability does.

 

[YungManzi]

Bump.

 

[Ayewale]

Okay. I'll give another example.
Yogiri Takatou has Power Nullification via being able to inflict his 2-B conceptual Instant Death onto magic and other abilities.

If someone were to resist their power being killed by him, would we say that any other 2-B power nullification with higher scaling should be able to overcome that resistance?

Yogiri shouldn't have Power Nullification there, thank you for pointing out that mistake.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Hmm? Why he wouldnt? He basically "kills" the attacks, nullifying them

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

It should be listed as Power nullfication via transmuation (list reason) or Power nullification via death manipulation (list reason)

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Seems good, I agree

 

[YungManzi]

I don't have a problem with that listing reasoning, that's aside from the purpose of this thread.

The question is if a resistance to something like resisting your power being killed by Yogiri is superior vs. powernull like Son Goku (Dragon Ball Super)'s, or Sonic's.

 

[YungManzi]

Reason being; We assume Powernull relies on AP unless there is a known mechanic behind it which tells us otherwise.

So, would powernull which isn't AP based always be superior to powernull which is?

 

[Wokistan]

Goku shouldn't even have power null tbh

 

[Ayewale]

Everyone would have power null via (x) (reason), if we use your logic.

 

[PhantomØ4]

What? So killing the ability to suction souls and thus you cannot use your ability anymore is not Power Null? Now it just seems like the definition is being narrowed by you.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Everyone would have power null via (x) (reason), if we use your logic.

If a character had displayed feats of nulling other abilities with powers like conceptual manip, death manip, sound manip, EE, etc its still powernull and there would be no problem to add to a character's profile

 

[Ayewale]

What? So killing the ability to suction souls and thus you cannot use your ability anymore is not Power Null? Now it just seems like the definition is being narrowed by you.

By your logic, anything that uses a very broad term of cancelling out an ability is power null.

Vegeta should have power null since his attacks are so powerful that they cancel out the opponent's.

 

[PhantomØ4]

That's called overpowering an attack... nice analogy but that ain't it. Excerting equal or greater opposite force is nowhere near the same ballpark.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

What? So killing the ability to suction souls and thus you cannot use your ability anymore is not Power Null? Now it just seems like the definition is being narrowed by you.

By your logic, anything that uses a very broad term of cancelling out an ability is power null.

"Power Nullification, or Negation, is the ability to simply nullify the powers and abilities of others, negating their effects. The mechanisms by which this effect is accomplished and their restrictions vary from character to character, but the ability is often limited to a certain type of power, such as supernatural phenomena in general, or magic. In some cases, an ability can only be negated once it's been used or activated, but in others, powers can be nullified before they're even utilized. The effect may be temporary or permanent, and may be restricted by touch, or be something that the user can apply to any ability they see, or within a field that negates any powers within.

Some characters accomplish these effects through applications of other abilities rather than an standalone ability in itself, such as using Power Modification to render powers useless. In addition, there are characters who combine this ability with Power Mimicry to not just seal the abilities of others, but steal them for themselves; this is known as Power Absorption."

 

[YungManzi]

^^Welp, Oblivion shut down that argument,

The page itself acknowledges power nullification achieved via other abilities, and different types of power nullification having different limitations.

Now it's a question of if we consider "AP negating Powernull" superior to powernull which doesn't display those properties.

 

[YungManzi]

Bump, I kinda need this wrapped up to continue revisions.

 

[YungManzi]

Bump.

 

[YungManzi]

Bump.

 

[YungManzi]

Bump.