Another Mihawk CRT

[LordGinSama]

That's a fair interpretation, which i respect but I'll have to kindly disagree with that notion.

I'll suggest two ideas.


Mihawk gets Prediction and Technique Mimicry as a "Possibly" or alternatively we can write down that these are feats that Mihawk scales above in his intelligence section. I've got a long day ahead of me so I'd like to wrap this up as soon as possible.

 

[SamanPatou]

The only one here that is even arguably intelligence derivative is possibly Information Analysis, the rest are stemming from Zoro's experience with swordplay, Prediction is gained through skill, as is his technique Mimicry. He started using skill based Prediction not much longer after Mihawk yeeted him with a butter-knife and his Technique Mimicry is literally centered around copying swordplay techniques.

Experience and skill are still part of Zoro's intellect. Reading the opponent's move is something that all expert fighters, swordmen and such can do even in real life, it's part of general skill, we just can't give it to all characters because they supposedly can do it. Zoro has demonstrated it, but just like technique mimicry we can't just scale that stuff to other comparable characters, otherwise Vista too gets it for being more skilled than Zoro, Shanks for being equal to Mihawk and then all characters that are better than Zoro.

Zoro's again, is based off of his own skill and experience when it comes to his discipline, his Prediction and Technique Mimicry are a consequence of his skill in that field, one that Mihawk greatly outdoes.

We can't be sure, it's a specific type of skill that Mihawk might not possess

You mean like how we already do? We literally do this with several verses, Baki the Grappler, Kengan Ashura, the list goes on. Also this only applies to Zoro since Mihawk TRAINED him and canonically scales above what Zoro is capable of.

This is a non-thing, because other verses being wrond don't make this good.

He's a different type of Swordsman, Mihawk unlike Zoro is able to change his style between Goken based sword play like Zoro and Juken based sword play, like Hakuba, and his base swordmanship is already drastically superior to Zoro's 3 styles.

His style being superior to Zoro's doesn't make him skilled in the same specific style. If we assume Mihawk can do everything Zoro does, including intellect-based things, that we have to assume he could wield two swords and one with his teeth and all the rest. We just don't scale skill in this way, the only exceptions are plain statements like "X can do everything Y does" or similar.

No, it isn't actually. What you wrote there is quite literally your own head canon, Mihawk is stated to be the most skilled Swordsman in the verse, Brook cannot be better than Mihawk in any form of Swordsmanship. Mihawk isn't called the most skilled two handed swordman, he's outright stated to be the most skilled Swordsman in general.

It was an example, Mihawk being more skilled than Brook doesn't make him more skilled than him in the same style. But it was a random example, a karate pratictioner might be more skilled than a pugilist, but it doesn't make him better than him in boxing. I meant that being more skilled than someone else doesn't make you able to replicate every single thing the less skilled person can do.

Expect your ignoring the blatant context here. Mihawk stands at the pinnacle of Swordsmanship in general, he isn't just better than the rest in one regard, again he is the most skilled Swordsman, it makes no mention of Mihawk's form of Swordsmanship making him the most skilled. Baki, Kengan and History Strongest Disciple all do this, so I don't see the issue here.

It's never stated that he knows every existing type of swordmanship, technique, maneuver and so on, he is indeed the most skilled but he isn't an omniscient swordfighter, he is """just""" incredibly good with his styles. And again, if Baki and Kenichi are wrong they are wrong, keep out the other verses.

 

[SamanPatou]

Okay I buy the rest but I really doubt Brook is a better fencer lol

It was an example to say that Mihawk is the best in his own style(s), but it doesn't necessarily makes the best in every field of swordmanship.

 

[LordGinSama]

Experience and skill are still part of Zoro's intellect. Reading the opponent's move is something that all expert fighters, swordmen and such can do even in real life, it's part of general skill, we just can't give it to all characters because they supposedly can do it. Zoro has demonstrated it, but just like technique mimicry we can't just scale that stuff to other comparable characters, otherwise Vista too gets it for being more skilled than Zoro, Shanks for being equal to Mihawk and then all characters that are better than Zoro.


We can't be sure, it's a specific type of skill that Mihawk might not possess


This is a non-thing, because other verses being wrond don't make this good.


His style being superior to Zoro's doesn't make him skilled in the same specific style. If we assume Mihawk can do everything Zoro does, including intellect-based things, that we have to assume he could wield two swords and one with his teeth and all the rest. We just don't scale skill in this way, the only exceptions are plain statements like "X can do everything Y does" or similar.


It was an example, Mihawk being more skilled than Brook doesn't make him more skilled than him in the same style. But it was a random example, a karate pratictioner might be more skilled than a pugilist, but it doesn't make him better than him in boxing. I meant that being more skilled than someone else doesn't make you able to replicate every single thing the less skilled person can do.


It's never stated that he knows every existing type of swordmanship, technique, maneuver and so on, he is indeed the most skilled but he isn't an omniscient swordfighter, he is """just""" incredibly good with his styles. And again, if Baki and Kenichi are wrong they are wrong, keep out the other verses.

Will say this, his Analytical Prediction & Technique mimicry have only been shown usage from Zoro in the form of swordmanship and nothing else, thus it's fair to say they are related to swordmanship skill and not just purely IQ that Zoro can apply in any manner he wishes.

This literally counters half of your argument alone, but after I come home I'll give a detailed reply.

 

[SamanPatou]

They are related both to swordsmanship and IQ because that's what Zoro does, just like other characters with the same might abilities apply them to combat and not to everything in their life, I don't see how this counters my arguments.

 

[LordGinSama]

actually I'm gonna address that IRL Prediction example, fighters in irl predict next moves based on muscle movement, placement and Telegraphing, they aren't seeing into the future or predicting in the same fashion that Zoro does. Zoro doesn't predict based on muscle movement or Telegraphing so that comparison falls flat.


I actually did boxing for quite awhile so I'm pretty familiar with how fighters predict in real life, it's nothing like fiction so let's not even make that comparison.



Also no, Post Time Skip Zoro is without a doubt more skilled than Vista? You literally have no evidence for that claim, and an extraordinary claim requires extraordinary evidence. Can't just say he's more skilled than current Zoro based on a clash that last for a few seconds against Mihawk who wasn't even trying.

 

[SamanPatou]

I know that super precise levels of analytical prediction don't exist in real life, it was to say that exactly because Zoro's is a "ground level" prediction you might assume that Mihawk can do it, just like any expert fighter, swordsman, warrior and so on can out of pure skill.
With the same reasonins you can very well give it to half the cast of One Piece.

We just don't list it within the abilities of a character unless they demonstrated of being able to do it.

The other reasons why I disagree with skill scaling still stand.

 

[Eminiteable]

Yeah I did say this and I agree the strongest title only refers to strength, but iirc there are different statement's in the Databooks referring to him as "the best/most skilled swordsman" using different kanji from his regular one, I would personally use them over the strongest title.

Here it is:

 

[XDragnoir]

Well, now i agree he should get these skill things Zoro has, but i think Gin's suggestion:

Mihawk gets Prediction and Technique Mimicry as a "Possibly"

Makes more sense due to the amount of quotes about Hawk's skill being way less than those about his strength, i disagree with only adding them to his intelligence section tho, i don't think we should be that strict with something so minor.

 

[Eminiteable]

Yeah I did say this and I agree the strongest title only refers to strength, but iirc there are different statement's in the Databooks referring to him as "the best/most skilled swordsman" using different kanji from his regular one, I would personally use them over the strongest title.

I agree with this, but you can have it both ways if there are seperate statements for both respectively and I do believe i remember there was some statements of "Best/most skilled" (Looking for them now).

More stuff for this:

 

[XDragnoir]

Expect your ignoring the blatant context here. Mihawk stands at the pinnacle of Swordsmanship in general, he isn't just better than the rest in one regard, again he is the most skilled Swordsman, it makes no mention of Mihawk's form of Swordsmanship making him the most skilled. Baki, Kengan and History Strongest Disciple all do this, so I don't see the issue here.

Also, i said i already agree with the proposal, but those 3 verses are completely different from what we have with Mihawk, his statements about skill come mostly from the databooks and aren't that many and he also has no feats for his skill, while i am sure these 3 verses (even tho my knowledge is limited in the 3) do have feats as well as statements of the MC doing X thing with skill or having mastered Y style as much or even more than someone else with Z feat, since skill is a much more important thing in them than in OP.

I think their case may be equal to Mihawk where the best feats are in different characters and the top tiers get them via scaling and not by doing it themselves but the statements about "mastery of this", "more skilled than him" and/or "could do that but better" are way more common in those 3 verses.

 

[LordGinSama]

I know that super precise levels of analytical prediction don't exist in real life, it was to say that exactly because Zoro's is a "ground level" prediction you might assume that Mihawk can do it, just like any expert fighter, swordsman, warrior and so on can out of pure skill.

That wasn't my point, the point wasn't to showcase Zoro's Prediction being better than Muscle movement and Telegraphed based Prediction, but rather it was to show the massive difference of mechanics between the two. Zoro gained all of his techniques via experience, experience in which Mihawk greatly outdoes. Mihawk being the same person who trained Zoro personally for 2 years, and after his training Zoro show cases the ability to Mimic techniques. That comparison again falls flat due to the mechanic's differing greatly from one another.

Character X has been trained by Character Z for 12 months, and within those 12 months Character X gains the ability to copy techniques from his 12 months of experience. Character Z trained Character X personally and has decade's of experience, it's logical to assume that Character Z is capable of doing the same as Character X since the copying is based upon experience.

With the same reasonins you can very well give it to half the cast of One Piece.

Luckily that's not what I'm arguing since nobody aside from Mihawk scales to Zoro's skill in Swordsmanship for the time being. Again, a flawed example and also a borderline Strawman Fallacy, none of what I'm arguing insinuates that half the verse would scale to Zoro.

We just don't list it within the abilities of a character unless they demonstrated of being able to do it.

We literally do that for several verses, Yhwach isn't directly stated to be able to use Stern abilities but we do it anyway. Yujiro Hanma isn't stated to be able to utilize every technique in the Baki verse but we still do it, Hayato isn't stated to be able to use every technique in Kinichi but we still do it. And let's not bicker back and forth about personal opinions, those threads were reviewed and accepted by staff members so it cleary isn't something that's not accepted in the wiki.

The other reasons why I disagree with skill scaling still stand.

And I strongly disagree with those reasons since a lot of them fail to address the actual argument in the OP without the usage of some type of fallacy, be it false comparison, borderline Strawman Fallacies and overall personal scaling that doesn't like up with what we're shown in verse. Brook in no way is a better fencer than Mihawk, Brook is a Juken based user, Mihawk is the world best Juken and Goken style user (such as Zoro.), with him being the only one in the verse to perfectly use both of these arts. Vista isn't a better swordman than Zoro, he hasn't shown any interactions with Zoro or displayed skill on Zoro's level. Mihawk was holding back against Vista and they clashed for a few seconds. Mihawk personally trained Zoro for 2 years, and we never saw how Water 7 (iirc.) Zoro would perform against Mihawk in comparison to his fight in the Arlong arc. Overall your argument utilizes a lot of Fallacies and very unsupported assumptions.

 

[Damage3245]

Yhwach isn't directly stated to be able to use Stern abilities but we do it anyway

Yhwach only has them as a possibly. Frankly it is the biggest bit of nonsense on this wiki that he has them in my opinion.

Yujiro Hanma isn't stated to be able to utilize every technique in the Baki verse but we still do it

That should be changed then.

Hayato isn't stated to be able to use every technique in Kinichi but we still do it.

That should be changed then.

 

[LordGinSama]

Yhwach only has them as a possibly. Frankly it is the biggest bit of nonsense on this wiki that he has them in my opnion.

I said I could settle for a possibly for Zoro's 2 abilities, Prediction and Technique Mimicry. That 1 out of the 2 proposals, with the 2nd being that we add the feats that he scales above such as Zoro's Prediction, Information Analysis, and technique Mimicry into his intelligence section. I prefer the 1st myself but either one of these should be done regardless.

That should be changed then.

Feel free to make the CRT then.

That should be changed then.

^

 

[Damage3245]

I said I could settle for a possibly for Zoro's 2 abilities, Prediction and Technique Mimicry. That 1 out of the 2 proposals, with the 2nd being that we add the feats that he scales above such as Zoro's Prediction, Information Analysis, and technique Mimicry into his intelligence section. I prefer the 1st myself but either one of these should be done regardless.

Where does the manga say he scales above Zoro's Technique Mimicry?

Why should we assume he has better Prediction and Information Analysis skills than him? Because people say he's the strongest/most skilled swordsman? Because he beat Zoro with a tiny sword? Those are not compelling pieces of evidence to me.

 

[LordGinSama]

Where does the manga say he scales above Zoro's Technique Mimicry?

Zoro gained his Technique Mimicry after the 2 year time skip where Mihawk trained it, Zoro's Technique Mimicry is skill derivative and his skill isn't near the level of Mihawk's via narrative, feats and statements.

Why should we assume he has better Prediction and Information Analysis skills than him? Because people say he's the strongest/most skilled swordsman? Because he beat Zoro with a tiny sword? Those are not compelling pieces of evidence to me.

Those are all based on Zoro's skill and Experience in Swordsmanship, Mihawk greatly outdoes him in skill and experience. Those are are compelling arguments to me and several others, Mihawk is inherently more skilled than Zoro in Swordsmanship via several statements. If Mihawk couldn't overcome or wasn't superior to Zoro's skill based Techniques then he wouldn't be called the World's most skilled Swordsman or him being at the "pinnacle" of Swordsmanship as a whole.

 

[SamanPatou]

I'd appreciate if you could stop calling my arguments strawmen and fallacies as I had a personal grudge againts your or this thread, or I was derailing on purpose.

Bringing on other verses is just pointless, if they're wrong they're wrong even if they don't get corrected asap and it doesn't make this good.

I'D agree with this if Mihawk was stated to know all swordmanship skills in the world or if that he taught Zoro everything he has learned or used after that training.

Zoro showing skill after training with Mihawk means that he got better, we don't know what he has learned from Mihawk himself or what he has developed on his own, otherwise you can take any master-type character and give them the abilities shown by any character they have trained.

And you can very well say that Vista and Shanks are better swordmen than Zoro, so they get those skills too.

Or even giving Mihawk all sword-related skills possessed by any swordman within the OP world because he is canonically much more skilled than them.

The Brook thing was an example, as I said, about the fact that being the most skilled in something doesn't make you exactly as skilled as everyone below you. Give Mihawk 3 swords and he might not be able to wield them as Zoro does, or a different sword and so on, we just don't know.

If this goes through we are basically opening the doors to skill-scaling to any character that is stated to be better than someone else in anything, martial arts, manipulating fire, using ki and so on, I could make plenty of examples.

 

[LordGinSama]

I'd appreciate if you could stop calling my argument strawmen and fallacies as I had a personal grudge againts your or this thread, or I was derailing on purpose.

Que??? Since when was addressing arguments for what they are any indication of a personal grudge against me or a thread? That's definitely jumping to conclusions, this is a debate, I am going to address Fallacies if I see them. Think your being a little defensive there.

Bringing on other verses is just pointless, if they're wrong they're wrong even if they don't get corrected asap and it doesn't make this good.

They aren't wrong, they were approved and accepted by staff members. If they were wrong then this would have been brought up, you saying it's wrong doesn't change much for me especially whenever we have staff alright with it and there being no rule or practice. You keep claiming it's wrong but you haven't even addressed WHY it's wrong.

I'D agree with this if Mihawk was stated to know all swordmanship skills in the world or if that he taught Zoro everything he has learned or used after that training.

Mihawk trained Zoro personally during the 2 year Time Skip, Zoro didn't have Technique Mimicry before his training with Mihawk. He's stated to be the world's best and most skilled Swordsman, standing at the pinnacle of Juken and Goken style Swordsman, which are the only 2 classes.

Zoro showing skill after training with Mihawk means that he got better, we don't know what he has learned from Mihawk himself or what he has developed on his own, otherwise you can take any master-type character and give them the abilities shown by any character they have trained.

Again, you gotta stop with these Strawman Fallacy and false comparison. Not only that but you should practice what you preach, you keep saying "other verses don't matter" yet you continue to bring other and all verses into the equation. Can't have your cake and eat it to, Mihawk personally trained Zoro, he trained him in Haki and Swordsmanship, Zoro's Technique Mimicry comes from his swordmanship using Occam's Razor we can assume that he gained his Technique Mimicry by training with Mihawk.

And you can very well say that Vista and Shanks are better swordmen than Zoro, so they get those skills to.

No, actually you can't. They lack the feats that Zoro does, and have never interacted with Zoro. What's your evidence that Shanks and Vista are more skilled than Zoro? The former clashed with Mihawk for a few moments and Mihawk wasn't taking him seriously either. The latter keeps up via Haki and AP, and we have know idea how they fought.


I'm not gonna reply to the rest, I've stated my side and I'm tired of the repetition. Agree to disagree and that's that.

 

[SamanPatou]

Apologies for the first thing, then.

That having been accepted by staff members doesn't mean it can't be wrong, I also said "if they are wrong", I don't know the verses nor the context, but it doesn't help this anyway, because I'm not changing my mind because of them, I could very well disagree with their reasons too.

The point is that we don't know neither if Mihawk has taught him to copy techniques nor to analyze the opponents. These are intellect/skill-related abilities that Zoro might have developed on his own during that training, and we don't know if they are specifically related to the Juken and Gouken styles.

The difference here is that this is a wiki-wide forbidden thing that allows exceptions only out of direct statements or specific power systems, as Zara said. And this would also affect a lot of other verses, otherwise we would create a double standard.

They are both swordsmen with more experience and that held their own against Mihawk, even if he was casual, better than how Zoro did. Mihawk even recognized Vista as a famous swordsman. The point is that it's not farfecthed and they might be, so they could very well get the same abilities for the same reasons. But you really can take any OP character that is stated or proved to be more skilled than others in something and give them a handful of skills from other characters out of nothing.

 

[Damage3245]

Still fully agreeing with SamanPatou here.

 

[LordGinSama]

I disagree with that entirely but I'll settle for the second proposal, which wouldn't give Mihawk any of the abilities mentioned but rather simply adding notable Swordsmanship feats that he scales above into his intelligence section.


So it would basically look like "Mihawk as the best Swordsman in the world scales above the likes of Roronoa Zoro who can predict, analyze and copy his opponent's techniques accurately." so while he wouldn't have them himself his Swordsmanship itself would be >>> Zoro's feats.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Zoro didn't have Technique Mimicry before his training with Mihawk.

Zoro does not have the ability to feel and cut anything before his fight with mr1

All what you are saying is still speculation and we don't scale resistances to people, if not orochimaru is about to get a lot of resistance, and Rayleigh too

 

[LordGinSama]

Zoro does not have the ability to feel and cut anything before his fight with mr1

All what you are saying is still speculation and we don't scale resistances to people, if not orochimaru is about to get a lot of resistance, and Rayleigh too

First of all, I'm not arguing resistances so maybe learn how to read the English language instead of reading words that aren't even there.

 

[KingTempest]

Relax Gin.

And Pain, nobody's referring about resistances, and please don't bring up Naruto in here.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I think where the problem comes from.is language barrier and I have to use machine translations sometimes and yes, my English is not good.
What I meant was we don't scale abilities to people that taught them, if we were never told they taught them the said ability

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Bumpo

 

[Deceived3596]

Necro.

(Also Sam's and Damage's arguments were straight Dookie IMO)

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Stop bumping ancient threads.

I also disagree with this, being better at something doesn't mean you can do anything in this something's field, that's dumb reasoning.

 

[KingTempest]

If yall don't go somewhere, this is over