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Anime Buu saga/GT upgrade.

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So, in the anime we see this scene of a galaxy getting erased by Majin Buu. This is the English dub but the Japanese scene is virtually the same. The only noticable difference between the two is Supreme Kai doesnt say in the Jap sub "entire Galaxies were erased from existence" which isnt relevant anyhow. If this site allows streaming sites Ill gladly post the Japanese sub if asked:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UnVB_4GXYns

Now, according to Herms the anime specified there are 4 Galaxies:

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The daizenshuu states each of the 4 galaxies exist infinitely in all the Universe. It also states that the Universe is an endless, expansive space with each of the galaxies being made up of innumerable nebula, each nebula made up of innumerable stars and planets. This shows all 4 galaxies are massive in size, at least equal to 25% of the Universe:


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This Would mean that Buu essentially destroyed one fourth of a Universe. In the Jap Sub, Supreme Kai states it took a few years for Buu to destroy several hundreds of planets. Afterwards, we see the galaxy disappear with no dialogue attached to it. Might seem odd that he only mentioned hundreds of planets, but right after Vegeta states that even Saiyans can accomplish destroying hundreds of planets in a few years. Its also impossible to destroy even a normal galaxy at a rate of hundreds of planets in a few years, let alone a super massive one.


This leads to the idea that Supreme Kais dialogue and the Galaxy scene could be viewed as seperate, which means one can argue that the galaxy bust could have happened far faster if not in one instant. Not to mention connecting the dialogue would lead to the conclusion the average Saiyans can accomplish destroying a galaxy over time. Nevertheless, to destroy a galaxy that's one fourth the size of the Universe even in a few years undoubtedly puts him at multi galaxy. Not to mention I see calcs that just ignore the dialogue as well and go by the pink lightning visuals.


There is also when he nearly busted Grand Kais planet, a planet that is visible in the skies of Heaven which is the size of the Universe:


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It was also stated in Daizenshuu that Supreme Kais realm was destroyed "even moreso" than the anime indicating it was damaged even in the manga and the Kai realm is one tenth the combined space of the afterlife and mortal world:

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There is also Super Buuhans Vice Shout feat, which is essentially an overpowered Kiai shout that Daizenshuu 7 stated covered the entire Universe. A Kiai is a ki attack in the form of a shout such as when Goku used a kiai to shout away Nappas attack. The Vice Shout was destroying the dimensional walls that are large enough to seperate the universe from other dimensions and powerful enough to prevent universe crushing alternate dimensions from rushing in and crushing the universe. Just the energy to cover the Universe should be at minimum multi galaxy, while destroying the dimensional walls would be higher.


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Vegito, who is at best a bit above Ssj4 Baby saga Goku, told Buu to hit him with that power and treated it like nothing.

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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ygI2FTxuzAA

Finally, there's a myriad of statements that say Buu will destroy the Universe such as these:


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I'd like to conclude with the Buu saga that everything shown here was also shown in DBZ Kai, which is stated to be the "Toriyama cut" though the primary point is for anime incartion to get bumped

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As for GT, the previous Shadow Dragon before Omega destroyed galaxies instantly after their birth, or at the very least "soon"


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Syn Shenron has the power to destroy a galaxy according to GT perfect files 2:

syn shenron/ishinlon(text red)

is endowed with an extraordinary destructive force that will cause to destruction of the galaxy.

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Reminder that a Galaxy in the anime continuity exists infinitely in all the universe which is an endless, expansive space. Each Galaxy is made up of innumerable nebulae, each nebula made up of innumerable stars and planets. Also, considering how Syn is far above baby saga ssj4 Goku, he more than likely is capable of much more.

Of course, he then becomes Omega Shenron who Would spread his negative energies to destroy the entire universe, including the supreme Kai realm:


https://youtu.be/xEIVRmDNWaI

Another thing to mention is the Kais realm is one tenth the combined space of the afterlife and mortal universe as already mentioned, however the Afterlife possibly dwarfs the mortal Universe considering it contains a Universe sized planet called Heaven. This also would mean the realm dwarfs the mortal Universe, since it is a tenth of the afterlife.


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Omega more than likely would also destroy the Afterlife, since "The Universe" whenever is used by Elder Kai refers to the mortal world, afterlife, and his world like Goku vs. Beerus. We even see the Afterlife getting threatened in that fight to further back that notion up at thr 00:50 mark.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sujqgUHKrQw

Nevertheless, Omega definetly will destroy Supreme Kais realm, a universe+ reality which also exists outside of the Macrocosm as shown earlier.

Final note: Anime Buu saga should be multi-galaxy possibly universal, GT around that to possibly universe+
 
I agree 100%, except that we should treat the Universe as a standard model. Even if we use a standard Universe model in place of the 4 large galaxy model, there is ample proof when considering all the anime feats and statements that Buu is multi-galaxy level, with Buuhan and Vegito possibly being Universal or Universal+, since he was destroying the Universe by manipulating it's space-time, not just it's matter, and stated to be about to cover the entire universe with his own generated space.

And although non canon, since this site uses movies and anime interchangeably, you could bring up SSJ3 Goku being able to shake the entire larger than universe sized afterlife, causing massive earthquakes all around it by powering up, or Janemba passively warping the entire afterlife, or the fact it is stated by multiple sources in the movie that Broly would destroy the Universe if left unchecked, that is why running was not an option, and considering he only has maybe 100 years to live that would require multi-galaxy level power.

SO even though these things often get swept under the rug or downplayed, I for one agree 100% with my friend here that it is consistently shown that Buu saga guys should be multi-galaxy easily, and potentially even greater in the case of Buuhan with vice shout and vegito or others who scale.
 
Sorry to derail but I'm super happy to see you back, other Ryu!
 
Nice to come back in. My good friend here from YT hit me up with a msg, so I felt it was a good time to come back. Also this was a topic that I feel is not fully resolved here, so I wanted to talk about it. As well as a few others in the near future.
 
@Dark649 Actually those feats are not discussed due to not in manga, and people applying them to canon all the time, Buu galaxy feat from what is shown is 4-A, but the slew of other things is not so cut and dry, but in this case we are talking anime, so they reasonably can be.

Also if that is the official decision that afterlife is not low 2-C I will make a thread on why it is now, and prove beyond a shadow of doubt it is, as long as the thread isn't unjustly closed before proving otherwise, which is something I been meaning to do, then we can get back to this topic.
 
@Dark649 the calc assumes the galaxy is 110K light years in diameter. I am arguing that the 4 Galaxies are each one fourth of an entire Universe, which would make that calc much higher using the supermassive galaxy model I am proposing. There is also Kid Buu nearly busting Grand Kais planet and I am not too familiar with the discussions on Vice shout, just that its considered an outlier here, which going from the evidence in the post suggests otherwise.
 
Going by the supermassive galaxy model is certainly going to yield multi galxy level feat for buu, but even without it evidence is very strong for multi galaxy level statements and feats in anime, and even some Universe-Universe+ ones as well.

Also for the cosmology thing, I made a thread to discuss why the other world and living world are two separate space time's.

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1640775
 
This again? Legit everything here has been brought up countless times before, and now people want to scale GT from Super?

Absolutely no for ridiculous shit like Infinitely-sized galaxies, or Omega Shenron being Tier 2. It takes a severe amount of time for him to destroy the universe with his attack.
 
Matt. I agree the normal universe model should be used. Omega being tier 2, plausible but I can see why the pushback, he only really would scale from buuhan so that could be outlier if you wanna ignore it.

However there is ample proof of multi galaxy level power for anime.

1. Goku shaking universe sized other world physically. (this alone is a direct undeniable feat of multi galaxy level raw power and enough.)

2. Janemba warping all other world passively.

3. Buu being stated multiple times to be able to destroy the Universe as an immediate threat.

4. Pushing back a spirit bomb powered by the universe.

5. Being able to destroy grand kai planet, which is depicted as a good portion the size of heaven, meaning multi galaxy in size.

6. Broly being stated multiple times to be able to destroy the universe even though he would have at best 100 years, which would be multi galaxy.

7. Then we have the shadow dragons with many statements about being able to destroy galaxies to.

8. And finally the vice shout of Buuhan that can cover the Universe with his warped space and collapse it.

Alone sure you could call outlier or hyperbole, but taken together there is overwhelming proof of multi galaxy level power for anime Buu tiers and up.
 
Why is it absolutely no for the supermassive 4 Galaxy model? On RM97s dbz cosmology thread members were stating Pre DBS db only had 4 galaxies, I merely revealed more on their sizes through Daizenshuu. If we go by that model, then Buu destroying a galaxy in the anime is a multi galactic feat no way you cut it.
 
@SSJRYU1

To add to that, Kid Buu vs SSJ3 Goku was destroying the Kaioshin Realm as stated by Elder Kai (anime)

Buu was stated to be stronger than Beerus 75 million years ago, Beerus at that time could destroy the Kaioshin realm (which backs up the point above. This was manga)

Some things you can add to your argument
 
Buuhan isn't Universal and neither is Omega. The later is much stronger and his best feat is slooowly destroying the universe through a chain reaction. 3-B is generous, and it doesn't scale to his fighting stats as the power of the attack grows exponentially with the passage of time.

Goku never shaked the whole afterlife and Janemba doesn't exist. That isn't canon. Buu is a universal threat because he cannot be stopped by anyone and would continuously wreck havock.

The Kaioshin Realm is that large. The planet is just a planet. And the Universal Spirit Bomb is 4-A.

Universal Broly is the most hilarious thing I ever heard.
 
Pretty sure 3-B Omega is based off of him destroying multiple galaxies in the past, and not his Negative Karma Ball.

Super Boo's feat is hax, and not AP.
 
He never destroyed any galaxy in the past. He was born in GT. That line isn't even about the immediate destruction of multiple galaxies. It's just saying that one galaxy was destroyed by an Evil Dragon in the past. It's 4-A.
 
Multiple fluent translators confirm "instantaneously destroyed several galaxies", actually.
 
I've seen the Kanji and the line. Nothing about that line implies "instantaneous", there's no word in that phrase which means that. And choosing "galaxies" is arbitrarily as Ginga has no plural.
 
Im also not using Super to scale to GT, I'm just using it as an example of how Elder Kai when he refers to Universe even means the afterlife and hia dimension. We see another example when discussing Buu how if he is not stop the Universe will be destroyed and he would eventually come to his realm and destroy it as well.

The time frame for Omega is never mentioned, but considering Elder Kai thought it would be pointless to try and escape despite Kibito kais power it is implied to be fast. Not to mention, the OG Shadow Dragon destroyed the galaxy/galaxies it was in instantly.
 
"A long long time ago, the Evil Dragon appeared on another planet. That planet was immediately destroyed, as were the galaxies surrounding it". - Source

"I think the inaccuracy is that it should be all the galaxies around the planet were wiped out. Also, the word star can also mean planet, so depending on the context this might be about a star being destroyed but that's less likely." - Source

ALRF also confirmed this translation was accurate.

According to Herms, the word "Ginga" can indeed be pluralized with surrounding context.
 
@zenkai Im pretty sure the buu> beerus thing was ethier a mistranslation or at the very least was retconned. In kai for example which is known for being accurate, elder kai just says beerus isnt as bad as buu. Plus the buu> beerus point is never mentioned again.
 
Also I wasn't clear on something. The Daiz differentiates Kaioshin planet and Kaioshin realm, stating BOTH werr damagrd during Goku vs. Kid Buu in both anime and manga.
 
While 3-A and low 2-C is not false for Buuhan feat, it is high end, but the main purpose was to show 3-B is consistent Matthew, ever since buu saga in anime actually.

This is not "canon" versions only. This is anime versions we are talking about so non canon is an irrelevant argument since we use the anime and movies with GT interchangeably here from what I understand.

Goku did shake the entire afterlife in FR, and janemba does warp the entire thing.

Also Broly is stated by multiple sources to be able to destroy the universe specifically, and that is why they don't flee. But it is high end for the time so could be outlier, although since broly stomped them and was clearly way strogner maybe not.

Either way 3-B is reasonable for buu saga anime and GT guys for sure for reasons above, including what Kep said to on GT.

I believe we should alter the GT profiles to show this, as well as SSJ3 Goku level guys and up for Goku shaking the Afterlife like janemba, Gogeta, hirudegarn etc.
 
Elder Kai specifically stated the Kaioshin Realm itself would be destroyed, which does mean the whole thing.

It's 1/10th the size of the entire macrocosm as stated in the Daizenshuu

The macrocosm includes Heaven, Hell, The afterlife, The mortal universe and the Demon Realm, each of which are universal in size.
 
Heaven being as wide as the universe is based off of gossip Videl heard from the inhabitants in the fillers. Not sure how reliable it is.
 
Gossip from random people is not reliable in any verse, and definitely not here.

Buuhan's feat is an outlier and scales to no one as it would have killed even himself.

Nope, most of the movies are non-canon, they don't fit the timeline at all.

Nope. Broly would never be stopped. It isn't a one-shot. Context is a thing you ignore.
 
Goku shaking the afterlife is absolutely a legit feat. But some calculations I've seen done here and on OBD suggest universe shaking isn't too impressive. (Like 4-A) However since I suck at math I can't really judge.
 
Yeah. Shaking a universe is 4-B to 3-C at max wank. So it is at least consistent with Kid Buu in the anime wiping a galaxy fairly quickly.
 
Heaven is also stated that it is as wide as the universe in daizenshuu and the map shos it as well, so it is confirmed.

No proof Buuhan would die, never stated, and he had a barrier up so unlikely if he intended to survive. Also it is still such power.

We apply movies to anime here, it is applicable to GT verse and anime which we treat non canon.

I do not ignore context, Broly is said to be able to destroy the Universe, I apply basic logic that even if he took 100 years, his life span, he would need multi galaxy level power to accomplish this.
 
Heaven being as wide as the Universe was confirmed in Daizenshuu. It appeared in anime first as gossip but Daizenshuu proved the statement.

Again, the Daiz specifically says Kais realm and planet were both damaged, shows in the scan I posted way up. Plus Kid Buu nearly busting Grand Kais planet as well.

The main point is trying to prove 3B tier Buu saga/GT at the very least, im not sure what's the verdict as of now.

Also, GT specifies there are 4 Galaxies in the first episode. Considering Daiz states the 4 Galaxies are "infinite" existing in all of the Universe, busting one is 3B minimum.
 
The map actually debunks it. Heaven is the blue planet in the upper edge of the globe.

Actually, Ryu, Broly only needs to be a few million times FTL to be able to destroy the universe in a few dozen years...
 
Heaven isn't as wide as the universe. That's demonstrably false, again. States that are debunked go into the bin, no matter how appealing. Sorry.
 
Shaking the Universe is 3-B. The 4-A level is from a 4 galaxy model. Your literally shaking trillions of galaxies and crossing all the billions of light-years of space between them. If you don't believe me have somebody crunch the numbers.
 
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