Analyzing Dimensional Tiering (Staff only)

[Antvasima]

Also he has already talked with several admins about this for what it's worth.

You know very well that he should have informed all of the bureaucrats about this in private first, not talked with you and a few other admins to instantly clear this for application after a rushed public discussion. It is strongly against our rules to do so.

 

[Ugarik]

Still logicaly there is absolutely no way a lower dimentional being can harm nor comprehend a higher dimentional one. So I guess I'm staing neurtal on this

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

I don't think it would be hard to find comments here if you're specifically conversing with someone. Also regular users should have their views added because mods aren't the only people with valid and intellectual points.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, I have to sleep now, but I am very disappointed in everybody who were directly involved in planning this.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Perhaps it would help if someone could give examples of what this would affect and why?

Off the top of my head, there aren't actually a whole lot of Tier 1/high end Tier 2 verses already established on the site that would be affected by this change, which is in a way just an extension of a rule we already try to enforce (albeit a bit of an unspoken one), if not a bit more strict.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

That's not how it's going, Ant. It's not disrespectful or wrong to suggest something publicly to get public opinion; it's better to be transparent. None of this was a slight against you or anyone else, and I knew this would be happening sooner or later, personally, and the only reason I didn't talk about it before is because it's... really not a big deal?

I don't really care if we close it or not if it's gonna be discussed privately, but transparency is a good thing. This will effect a lot of verses so it's best if people know about it.

Listen to her, Ant. You are overreacting.

 

[Agnaa]

I don't think it would be hard to find comments here if you're specifically conversing with someone. Also regular users should have their views added because mods aren't the only people with valid and intellectual points.

You can give your input by messaging a staff member on their wall, either telling them directly or asking them to post on your behalf.

When regular users comment willy nilly we get relatively useless posts clogging up the thread (such as you simply saying you agree, this isn't being put to a poll).

@Staff Could one of you guys delete the more tangential posts from this thread?

Perhaps it would help if someone could give examples of what this would affect and why?

Off the top of my head, there aren't actually a whole lot of Tier 1/high end Tier 2 verses already established on the site that would be affected by this change, which is in a way just an extension of a rule we already try to enforce (albeit a bit of an unspoken one), if not a bit more strict.

I'm not familiar with every verse so I can't comment on all of them. It would downgrade most SCP god-tiers. Any verse that has higher-D statements but doesn't specify that higher-dimensions give a qualitative superiority would get downgraded.

 

[Antvasima]

That's not how it's going, Ant. It's not disrespectful or wrong to suggest something publicly to get public opinion; it's better to be transparent. None of this was a slight against you or anyone else, and I knew this would be happening sooner or later, personally, and the only reason I didn't talk about it before is because it's... really not a big deal?

I don't really care if we close it or not if it's gonna be discussed privately, but transparency is a good thing. This will effect a lot of verses so it's best if people know about it.

I strongly dislike going completely against our protocols in a potentially extremely uncontrolled chaotic manner, but I am half-asleep, and stressed out by real world issues as usual, so it is possible that I am overreacting, yes.

 

[KLOL506]

Anyway, I trust Kep and Matt's judgment over the proposals and thus, I agree with them.

Also, let's not derail on who was derailing the thread and let's strictly focus on the thread. The sooner we can finish this, the better.

 

[Antoniofer]

Still logicaly there is absolutely no way a lower dimentional being can harm nor comprehend a higher dimentional one. So I guess I'm staing neurtal on this

Point is, that dimensions are coordinates, not a transcendent plane of existance; a 4D being just means it can move at 4 different coordinates. If we go with (3+X)D being aleph-x times stronger, anyone with this power would be Low-2-C or 2-A.

 

[SomebodyData]

I'm neutral (slightly leaning pro) too as well assuming the-

""They're higher-D-tier unless it's contradicted" to "They're only a higher tier if the verse gives higher-D beings qualitative superiority""

-Is the general change.

I'm not knowledgeable on dimensions really, so I don't exactly follow the rest of the changes.

 

[Agnaa]

Point is, that dimensions are coordinates, not a transcendent plane of existance; a 4D being just means it can move at 4 different coordinates. If we go with (3+X)D being aleph-x times stronger, anyone with this power would be Low-2-C or 2-A.

4d beings aren't stronger because they can move in higher dimensions, they're stronger because they physically have another dimension, making their size infinitely larger.

I don't think characters with 3d bodies that could move in higher dimensions have ever been 2-A+

 

[Overlord775]

Point is, that dimensions are coordinates, not a transcendent plane of existance; a 4D being just means it can move at 4 different coordinates. If we go with (3+X)D being aleph-x times stronger, anyone with this power would be Low-2-C or 2-A.

1. Powerlisting wiki is not reliable in the slightest

2. A 2-D object is almost non-existant to a 3-D person, as something infinitelly thin has no way to interact with anything. This should also apply to 3-D to other higher D dimensions,

 

[Antoniofer]

if any, the only issue here is the regular users commenting and burying the thread in comments.

Cherrypicking
Matt and other admins were derailing AS SWELL

I was refering to commenting in an Staff thread rather than delay, everyone delay nowadays I can pass that; bit this thread was made here in order to reduce the number of comments.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Perhaps it would help if someone could give examples of what this would affect and why?

Off the top of my head, there aren't actually a whole lot of Tier 1/high end Tier 2 verses already established on the site that would be affected by this change, which is in a way just an extension of a rule we already try to enforce (albeit a bit of an unspoken one), if not a bit more strict.

It would downgrade all characters who are Tier 1 purely for being Nth-Dimeneional. But if the character created or destroyed an Nth-Dimeneional cosmology, then Tier 1 is fine.

 

[Sera_EX]

Well, characters like BB already get this treatment. She has Higher-Dimensional Manipulation rather than being 1-C because of 8-dimensional shenanigans which people dismiss as outliers but they aren't outliers. Nasuverse is one of those verses where higher dimensions don't grant qualitative superiority. This is what I was talking about Ultima + Matt all those months ago. I said find specific examples in fiction to make this process much easier, rather than rush things.

 

[Agnaa]

It would downgrade all characters who are Tier 1 purely for being Nth-Dimeneional. But if the character created or destroyed an Nth-Dimeneional cosmology, then Tier 1 is fine.

Why wouldn't this downgrade the latter? Going by the OP's arguments, there's nothing special about destroying an Nth-dimensional cosmology, unless it's stated to be qualitatively superior to a 3rd/4th-dimensional cosmology.

 

[Sera_EX]

Ultimator is High 1-C simply for being 10-D though.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

I was never a fan of dimensional tiering, so to see it be removed and replaced with a more logical and sound proposition is much better in my eyes. I'm also glad it points out the confusion and mishaps the current system has on new users and visitors with its pseudo-intellectual jargon.

In effect, it is choosing to apply to all of fiction an incredibly specific and erroneous interpretation of how Dimensions are supposed to work, which itself only applies to the cosmologies of a set of specific franchises. Like, I said, this is borderline favortism towards these franchises, and I see absolutely no reason to put the way they treat Dimensions within their Cosmologies as an objective way to Tier all of fiction, rather than a more realistic approach to the concept, which is far more general, unitary and unattached to any specific Cosmology of any specific work of fiction....

Not only are the last two paragraphs extremely self-contradicting, but they are effectively stating that certain Authors are idiots who don't know what Dimensions are just because their Cosmologies and Interpretations aren't aligned to the Cosmology of completely disparate fictional settings.

Absolutely agree. We shouldn't apply such a standard to all of them and belittle authors for not knowimg that standard. An author's interpretation will not always be equal to another's, their higher dimension could be equal to another's lower dimension in definitions, statements and feats.

 

[Kepekley23]

List of things this would change:

1. Being higher-dimensional by itself wouldn't be worth any tier - the verse would need to imply that Higher Dimensions are being treated as Higher Infinities and that such a being is powerful enough to affect the whole of a Higher-Dimensional structure.

2. Lower-dimensionals who are of a certain tier wouldn't be assumed to be unable to affect Higher Dimensionals with their abilities anymore.

The first one is the most fundamental change.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

It seems there is a great deal of derailment that's making the actual debate here a mess to follow, so I'm going to go through and remove purely joke posts and a lot of the previous derailment accusations.

 

[Hellbeast1]

I agree with this for the record

 

[Antvasima]

Ultimator was vastly superior to the 5-D imps, in the same manner that they transcend regular humans. It was just a story told by Mxyzptlk though.

 

[Overlord775]

Ultimator is High 1-C simply for being 10-D though.

DC threats dimensions as infinity jumps, as seen with Mr. Mxy

so get another exemple

 

[Agnaa]

List of things this would change:

1. Being higher-dimensional by itself wouldn't be worth any tier - the verse would need to imply that Higher Dimensions are being treated as Higher Infinities and that such a being is powerful enough to affect the whole of a Higher-Dimensional structure.

2. Lower-dimensionals who are of a certain tier wouldn't be assumed to be unable to affect Higher Dimensionals with their abilities anymore.

The first one is the most fundamental change.

Why would affecting higher-dimensional structures make a character a higher-tier if higher dimensions are just other directions?

If higher-D structures just have more dimensions there's nothing special about affecting them, except that the character has better range.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, I much prefer our current praxis to not allow massive higher-dimensional tiers if this is blatantly contradicted by the story, but if there is an established qualitative superiority, it should be fine.

An official rule is preferable naturally.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

It would downgrade all characters who are Tier 1 purely for being Nth-Dimeneional. But if the character created or destroyed an Nth-Dimeneional cosmology, then Tier 1 is fine.

This seems like it would affect very, very few of the most notable pages that utilize higher dimensions, then.

Marvel, DC, Cthulhu Mythos, Umineko, TES, 40k, SCP, Masadaverse, D&D, Doctor Who, SMT, Digimon, Nightside, The Dark Tower, etc.

All of these seem like they'd be mostly untouched, with the possible exception of a small handful of fringe cases in some of the verses. I could be completely missing something, but this does not actually seem like it would cause that big of a change, in practice. Not "taking sides", just stating I don't see the major upsides or downsides this would have so far, beyond better clarification on what's required, and possibly downgrading a small number of existing pages.

 

[Sera_EX]

I know, I know. I was just saying that on its page it literally just says

"Attack Potency: High Complex Multiverse level (is a 10-dimensional entity)"

 

[Kepekley23]

> Why would affecting higher-dimensional structures make a character a higher-tier if higher dimensions are just other directions?.

Explained it in the exact thing you quoted:

"the verse would need to imply that Higher Dimensions are being treated as Higher Infinities"

 

[Agnaa]

> Why would affecting higher-dimensional structures make a character a higher-tier if higher dimensions are just other directions?.

Explained it in the exact thing you quoted:

"the verse would need to imply that Higher Dimensions are being treated as Higher Infinities"

My bad, I'm dumb.

@Azathoth SCP would be downgraded to 2-A for every character except SCP-3812 and Swan. SCP doesn't treat higher dimensions as higher infinities, and the rest of the god-tiers only have 1-B because of statements of higher-D statements.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Agnaa

Really? I could have sworn there were at least a few quotes suggesting several higher levels of existence for the normal top tiers, but I may be remembering incorrectly.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

"this is borderline favortism towards these franchises"

For some reason, this stuck with me the most out of everything said. I agree with most of what Ultima said btw. But this is something I thought of since I first joined.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I probably should write something on this in detail, but it's late here so not today anymore.

But to start with the Hausdorff stuff: We use Hausdorff for the reason that the formulation is as general as possible and the theorems necessary are particularly easy to access.

The same applies on a (by necessity of formulation) less general level for the Lebesgue-measure, which is what is used to measure size in every form of science ever (Which has reasons). Restricting the Hausdorff-measure to less general spaces, like those used in physics, makes it the same as the Lebesgue-measure (well, the standard volume to be strict).

The difference in sizes there has also nothing to do with fractal dimensions. The theorems hold if you resitrict it on integer dimensions just as well (which is the lebesgue case).

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Ultimator is High 1-C simply for being 10-D though.

The Ultimator and the Cathexis are two characters which have very bad profiles with no justifications so I think they should just be deleted.

Another example of a bad profile that uses higher dimensions is the Mother of Infinity, who is 1-B simply because of a comic mentioning 28 Dimensional theory.

 

[Agnaa]

@Agnaa

Really? I could have sworn there were at least a few quotes suggesting several higher levels of existence for the normal top tiers, but I may be remembering incorrectly.

If there is, it's never linked to dimensionality and they're always capable of affecting each other.

Many exist outside of the normal multiverse (tree of life, etc) but I don't see any of them getting out of tier 2.

I'm, of course, not familiar with the other verses you listed, but they'd have to be gone over with a very fine-toothed comb to make sure that they actually won't be downgraded.

 

[Antvasima]

@Kepekley

I doubt that is explicitly spelled out in most cases, so this change might largely cripple our tiering system if applied too strictly.

As I mentioned earlier, our current current praxis is to not allow massive higher-dimensional tiers if this is blatantly contradicted by the story, but if there is an established qualitative superiority, it should be fine. Demanding that the exact words "higher infinities" should be spelled out is too strict though.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

SCP would actually be High 1-C. Última recommended using Brane Cosmology on the OP and a multiverse of Eleven Dimensions is actually quite consistent in the verse.

 

[TriforcePower1]

I disagree with Lower Ds now being able to interact with Higher Ds. I'm sorry if this counts as derailing, but I'd ask to hear me out about this.

Think of an explosion. A completely normal explosion that you can find everywhere in fiction and in Real Life. How is energy dissipating itself during said explosions? In a spherical formation (more or less), because it's dissipating itself in 3 Dimensions. An Explosion doesn't travel across time or other dimensions, as we all know.

Let's take this concept to a 2 Dimensional Universe. Now, any 2-D Explosion would dissipate its energy in a circular formation, it's dissipating in 2 Dimensions. But 2D dimensional things, no matter how strong they are, they wouldn't be able to interact with 3D objects. Anything 2D that tried to hit you, would just travel across you without hurting you at all. Because it needs 3 dimensional axis to affect 3 dimensional objects.

Energy is a scalar, but force, which is needed for two objects to interact, is vectorial. Without forces, objects cannot interact between each other.

 

[Antvasima]

I really have to go to sleep now though. I will probably have to work around 12 hours making sure that the wiki doesn't collapse into chaos tomorrow as well... And no, waking up to a 400 replies long thread tomorrow that might wreck part of our tiering system, and is organised by a permanently banned member, doesn't help in that regard.

 

[Ugarik]

2. Lower-dimensionals who are of a certain tier wouldn't be assumed to be unable to affect Higher Dimensionals with their abilities anymore.

I don't agree with that one. I can see why being higher dimentional wouldn't grant you an ability to annihilate anything that is lower dimentional. But higher dimentional being are still completely beyond comprehention of lower dimentional ones hence can not be affected by them.

And no, the olny reason we can calc hypervolume of higher dimentional objects is because we have enough data about their lower dimentional counterparts (like square -> cube) and the consept of dimentions itself. Those objects are still beyond our comprehention