An Unordinary Pyscho Battle - John Doe vs Shigeo Kageyama

[PTSOXMONKEY99]

Finally got around to reading UnOrdinary and Mob Psycho 100 season 2. I think you can figure where I'm going from here. Too lazy to think of an intro though.

Power Copying Boi vs Telekinetic Boi

Unrestrained John vs Base Mob

John has his abilities from his fight with Juni

Mob starts in Base

Both start 20 feet away from each other

Location: Z-City

WHO WINS AND WHY?

Mob: 1 (Ciruno Fortes)

John: 2 (Litentric Teon, Dargoo Faust)

Inconclusive:

 

[PTSOXMONKEY99]

BUMP

 

[PTSOXMONKEY99]

BUMP

 

[Litentric_Teon]

Assuming they're both about baseline, I'm going to side with John here.

John has precog here, so he'll be able to see what Mob will do before he can do it. What's more, he can copy all of Mob's abilities. Once he copies his TK, he'd probably use it to maim him, like twist his arm or something. It certainly helps that John can amp his speed here as well, as he'll be able to move in and out of Shigeo's line of fight.

But, John is simply a more brutal fighter than Shigeo. So once he has TK he'll use it to instantly incap him so he won't get back up, which is something that Shigeo doesn't do IC iirc.

 

[PTSOXMONKEY99]

BUMP

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

John FRA.

 

[PTSOXMONKEY99]

Should I change it to John from his fight with Zeke so that it's more fair?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Phase Shift has a pretty hefty speed amp for John and we're debating Speed Amps in speed equal matches rn so probably not.

IMO looking at how Mob fights the Arlo fight key might be the most appropriate.

 

[PTSOXMONKEY99]

But then he gets healing on top of getting a second barrier (which will stack from the barrier he'll get from Mob)

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

John can't self-heal with Elaine's ability, he can only regen with Tanner's ability.

But yeah Arlo's Barrier + Mob's Barrier would probably make this worse for Mob.

 

[PTSOXMONKEY99]

So should I switch to another power set?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Nah. The result will sort of be the same regardless of what version of John is used tbh (Barring him restraining himself), and this isn't a stomp.

IMO John's precog isn't as good as Litentric is advertising it.

 

[Litentric_Teon]

Honestly, I think John just using power mimicry wins this just because he's much more violent than Mob.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Honestly, I think John just using power mimicry wins this just because he's much more violent than Mob.

Not really. From what I've seen of Mob he's brutal as heck even in his base form.

John has the advantage of gaining Mob's stats on top of his own, though, and typically uses the powers he copies to greater effect than the original user anyways.

 

[Litentric_Teon]

Oh really? I didn't know. Then I guess it depends on how brutal Mob is. I just never recalled him using his TK to just up and break someone's leg or dent their chest cavity. Something of that nature. Which is something I can see John doing.

True.

 

[Epiccheev]

Shouldn't base Mob be 8-C for beating Koyama?

 

[PTSOXMONKEY99]

BUMP

 

[Ciruno_Fortes]

The main issue with power absorbing is that a lot of people have done that to Mob before. The only time it really worked was on that one room and even that was on base form. His 100% has him no selling power absorption and doing his own absorption.

However, was John able to use the ability of people that weren't with him? Cause I remember talking a lot to a pal wondering about if that works.

On the other hand though, I think powers are treated differently between Mob Psycho and UnOrdinary. In UnOrdinary you have a set power. In Mob, many have the same power but different power levels. John might only be able to copy that power aspect and he would not be able to capture just how much energy Mob has. Not to mention that even with precog, Telekinesis have the high efficiency of always capturing targets. Cause you know you just grab them and go.

Mob's immense energy also means he doesn't have much for weaknesses.

Additionally, Mob can also mimic the abilities of enemies like when he mimicked how a plant user could use plants. Cant' say he's gonna copy everything John has but he might take inspiration on the more obvious ones.

I'm gonna have to side with Mob here since nothing is stopping him from going to 100% or ???% even.


That said, I love this match and I really need to get back to reading Unordinary.

 

[Litentric_Teon]

But Mob doesn't start at 100% iirc. And John's power is power mimicry, not power absorption, lol. And when John copies powers, he improves them and they should be a bit more powerful than the original.

The reason I think John wins is less about how is more powerful and more about who will use the power better. John has no issues with using TK to incapacitate Mob with something like break his leg, arm, etc. Mob seems to mostly fling people around or hit them with force iirc.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes]

Nope. But he can reach it. He starts at Base. And considering how John acts, I think he might press Mob's triggers.

That's true on the Power mimicry... But can we say for certain that the powers at MP 100 work entirely like in Unordinary however? Like for example I don't think he can copy the entirety of Han Jee-Han's powers in one go, it might be a bit of a stretch to do that. Mob on the other hand contains 'something' inside him, and is indeed a power... But everyone else has a similar power to him. He just has so much battery.

So while John and Unordinary's powers are basically unique data and that's easy for him to improve upon. It's usually a different power for each one but some can share similar powers.

Meanwhile Mob's power is a literal power developed from stress and some other means. It's why we have actual espers and exorcists. And that TK power is much more wide. The way I see it, it's likely that John gets a powerful version, probably outdoing Ritsu and maybe even Teruki. But we can't say for certain if he's gonna get everything in that power.


Through but with comes raw power comes less need for techniques in the first place. If he were to do that to Mob, that's an easy acceleration to 100%. And usually those fling and toss people around are so powerful that he could knock them out. Last time he did that against someone, Mob actually tore up the limbs of someone (in Season 2 episode 5). The tier jumping would be very very deadly to John.

I don't disagree that John is much more skilled, but his power mimicry is hard to apply in certain verses.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Verse Equalization would absolutely allow John to replicate Mob's powers, given that they are based on a biological trait (Think Heroes, My Hero Academia, etc.).

If we started to get more specific on how one verse's laws apply to another we'd get nowhere, as clearly every fictional continuity does its things differently than others. Therefore we equalize similar aspects of each verse. From my knowledge of Mob Psycho John should be able to mimic his power.

IDK how far John is into 9-A but I don't see any calcs related to Mob (which I might rectify after watching the series), so John might have a pretty decent AP advantage.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes]

@Dargoo

Fair on that, but it doesn't dismiss the fact that his ???% is not something that one can mimic considering it's his literal personality and just the output of his powers. Even then I'm not really convinced John can copy exactly everything about someone's power, and then an increase in level. It seems a bit NLF to claim for anyone too strong for him.


After all, Base Mob is what we start with, but he can still go 100% or ???%

 

[Nico-v11]

Nah John can definitely copy Mob's power but he definitely won't know everything he should be capable of. So like if John sees Mob use tk John will only think he has TK and not the rest that Mob actually has.

Mob's powers actually allow him to stall and wait for John to just lose his powers. Btw Mob is BRUTAL when pissed off, look up Mob vs Koyama on YouTube (second time Mob fought him he literally ragdolled him around a room destroying everything).

I honestly doubt that 100% Mob will come out since Mob has no emotional connection with John or anything and he'd have to get knocked out of ???% to come out. Even then that's such a stat increase that John would get stomped instantly. John can copy powers but his durability isn't going up to where he can tank that and he's not gonna be skilled enough with Mob' powers to make good barriers around his body like Mob.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes]

Thing is {Mob starts in Base}

And if John really is pragmatic enough to break limbs and try to do anything brutal, Mob is gonna have to use his powers. Even against any superpowered folks Mob tends to get more serious. And even then, the 100% is more like a no barell "all in" sort of deal.

How long does John's power snatching last?

And even then, if Mob gets knocked out, which is the aim of the fight, that's going to be the goal.

I think the ideals of John could also seriously bring out Mob's own 100% due to that. Also Mob can still absorb energy from others which he does a lot so there's nother helping factor

 

[SinsofMan]

Honestly? I have a complaint on how the matchup is setup. If John only has his key from Juni, he should not 9-A 9-A comes from him copying abilities from the class at New Bostin and/or scaling to Isen who stopped Semi or when Arlo was stated in an interview to be able to stop a truck with his barrier.

John tier should honestly be changed to Varies to avoid confusion but forgetting that.. I am going to side with John high diff. John vs Mob is tricky since Mob at first will have the power and strength advantage, but John's precog should help avoid anything overtly dangerous and allow him to keep his distance. Even assuming he does get hit, both should be 'baseline', John should take this with the amplified copied ability Also, It is an argument from incredulity, I admit; but John has learned how to use abilities BETTER then even the original host. I could be forgetting something, but I dont recall Mob wanting to use his maximum potential start ever. He has to be 'pushed' to go beyond his limits or even hut other people.


Johns mindset, as stated above, at least in this case is naturally bloodthirsty A few hits for John, but John will likely get twice as many more with each counter and then some. John will try to incapicitate Mob, either with close range combat or knocking him out. John via his personality, his amplified power mimicry, and the ability to likely use abilities better then the original host. It is close though. (Although I am really turning off my brain with this because John with just Juni abilities is like, 9-B at best.)

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Honestly? I have a complaint on how the matchup is setup.
If John only has his key from Juni, he should not 9-A 9-A comes from him copying abilities from the class at New Boston and/or scaling to Isen who stopped Semi or when Arlo was stated in an interview to be able to stop a truck with his barrier.

9-A comes from John stomping people on the same level of a guy who can do what was possibly a 9-A feat, not his New Bostin or Arlo fights, nor is Arlo's barrier stopping a car the feat we define him by, although it's good support for his tier.

Even when John hadn't stolen powers he's still kept up with people who scale to a 9-A feat when his powers are active. 9-B is just him holding back and pretending to be a cripple.

John w/his powers is basically like a lower-end 9-A who can continuously amp himself with other people's stats, not a 9-B who amps into 9-A.

 

[Litentric_Teon]

What Dargoo said.

Also, ragdolling someone isn't the same as literally using TK to just up and break someone's leg. Part of John mimicking someone's powers in that he uses it better than what they've shown. So John would likely be flying about, and simply use his power to crush Mob's body parts, or something similarly brutal. That doesn't really compare to tossing someone across a town. It's similar to how the guy from supernatural uses Tk to literally rip people's heads open. Then brutal like that, just toned done slightly so that John won't kill. Hence why I'm discussing the breaking of bones in their totality.

 

[Litentric_Teon]

As for the Han Jee-Han example, that actually depends on what powers Han uses. It's not like if Han uses his mana arrows that John would suddenly get all the powers Han has. But he would likely gain the ability to spawn the arrows. He can only take powers he's seen from what we've seen so far, so someone would have to first use their power in order for him to take it. There's also plenty of powers he likely can't copy. Like summons, or abilities that come from armor or weapons. But none of that is the case here.

 

[PTSOXMONKEY99]

Loving the debate guys

 

[Ciruno_Fortes]

@Sins and Dargoo

My key thing with this is whether he will replicate the ability of everything or not. I simply cannot accept the idea that he can copy even the strongest power user's power and make it even stronger. It's not about verse equalization that I'm concerned about. It's the fact that it might come off as NLF. Even with other existing limitations.

Tier jumping with powers when the verse itself doesn't have much to offer or hasn't shown the 'ceiling' of what he can do is dangerous.

@Litentric (Ragdoll)

See that's my issue. Why would crushing Mob's body part NOT activate his 100% at the very least? That's going to make him believe that the enemy enjoys using his power against others. Not to mention by the end of the series, Mob has accepted who he is so technically there's no ???% gap anymore. Nonfatal or nonkilling doesn't matter when Mob decides that the enemy is not someone who's against using powers against other people. Even against other espers he does this.

@Litentric (Gamer)

But won't that contradict the idea of how the Gamer's Body is something else entirely? The way I see it, it's too unbelievable to say he can jump great tiers. I'd be shocked if he can achieve the same level of raw output of Misaka Mikoto or Cole MacGrath or dare I say Goku.

True on those ones then.


But yeah I'll have to vote Mob with high diff.

 

[Litentric_Teon]

@Ciruno

I don't see how it's NLF when that's literally how the power works. He obtains the ability and gains the stats of the wielder. So he would gain TK and stats proportional to what Mob has. And he would be able to use TK in ways that Mob has yet to show. As he's done in basically ever single one of his fights. It's not NLF, it's merely consistent with how his ability works. I don't see why him copying the ability to use Mob's TK is so hard to accept here. It's John's whole gimmick as a character.

And to address your other points

1. Mob having his body crushed would kill him, lol. I don't think John would really hesitate all that much to kill under SBA, but in character he tends to just brutally beat down. But with Tk, it takes it to an entirely different level. Even with ???%, John can actually combat Mob's TK with his own TK. Not to mention that he has precog in this key, so he can see what's coming and adjust accordingly. He can also boost his speed with catch up. These abilities still play a role here. And while they're not as dominant as TK, they push the battle into John's favor.

2. As for the Gamer, Han is honestly not the best comparison. And I didn't mention the Gamer's body for a reason. I gave examples of plausible abilities he couldn't absorb.

3. As for the tier jump, that should be irrelevant as that's not the case here. I could see NLF here, since John's stats do raise proportional to the ability that he's copied. But Mob isn't a tier above him, so this isn't really worth discussing on this thread.

I can understand why you think Mob would win. I just think John is too brutal to let Mob get much of anything started. Fighting with broken legs and/or arms is rather difficult, and Mob could possibly pass out from the pain itself.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes]

Unless I see him mimicking an ability exactly that's a much much higher tier than his I really am finding it hard to believe it.

1) Is it in character for John to do so? He's violent but I never took him for a killer. I also again find it hard to believe he could pull that off against ???%

2) Exactly. There's a limit to what he can absorb. It's why if he absorbs the ability of an esper to manipulate TK energy, he's not copying how much energy they already stockpiled in advance. Which seems to be a frequent thing with espers.

3) Well... he is.... Especially 100% It's literally MCB vs Building. Quite a big gap. The only thing John can mimic is his initial form.

Fighting with broken legs and arms is ... not exactly gonna hold back someone who just uses their mind to blow stuff up everywhere. Heck Mob was delimbed frequently in his latest fight. And making him pass out from the pain? Last time that happened was with Teruki. And he got a ????% to the butt. Heck even being KOed by Truck-kun is enough to trigger ???%. I really don't see the reason for why it won't activate especially with how John acts

 

[Litentric_Teon]

1. In John's first fight he nearly killed someone by letting them fall from a great height. And nearly killed someone else by piercing the back of their neck. It's honestly a wonder that he hasn't killed anyone yet, given how brutally he tends to defeat his foes. He's honestly more than brutal enough to be a killer, but no has died because...PIS?

2. You misunderstand. John doesn't absorb powers. He copies them. Absorbing them assumes that Mob wouldn't have them at that point. No, he'll have his powers. I don't see why that wouldn't include the built up energy since he also obtains the stats comparable to the person he's copying. Arlo has likely been fighting as King for at least a year or two, yet John copied his power and made better use of it than Arlo could despite having his ability since birth. Once again, I don't see the issue with John being able to copy abilities. It's simply what he does.

3. Ah, you're right. My mistake. I forgot that Mob legitimately becomes a higher tier in his other forms.

4. Do you...have any idea of how excruciating it is to have your arms and legs broken? That's not something one can just shrug off, even Mob. Being Ko'ed is actually nowhere near comparable. Like, complete false equivalence. He was still intact after being KO'ed. He didn't have a good portion of his body literally broken. Like I said, Mob would likely just succumb to the pain and pass out. Or John could use TK to pierce the back of his neck the way he did against Melli and Ventus with his claws. John is far more brutal, and its because of this brutally that what he would do to Mob would make it so he literally cannot get up. John has shown multiple times that he'll keep pounding on someone, even if they're unconscious or begging for mercy. John's brutality is going to prove too much for Mob. And precog helps him know of what's coming. And would likely give him a few precious seconds in the unlikely scenario that Mob will get back up, to simply put him down.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Why in the blazes are we discussing ??? and 100% Mob when Base Mob is being used here.

 

[Litentric_Teon]

The OP says that Mob starts in base, meaning that he should be able to go 100% and ??? as time goes on. But perhaps he's restricted to base. I'm not sure now, actually.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

If Mob can go into 100%/???% he stomps John the moment John starts to overwhelm him.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

hm

 

[PTSOXMONKEY99]

The real quesiton is if John also receives Mob's emotion based limiter on his powers. Meaning, if John's own psychic abilities will wax and wane with his emotions like Mob's

Also @Dargoo it he can't go 100% Anger or anything immediately unless he's triggered by something, its usually a gradual process, give John a window where he can still take Mob down before he becomes too powerful.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I guess, IDK what kind of window John would have in incapacitating Mob though.

 

[PTSOXMONKEY99]

Well his psychic would start off better than Mob's by a decent extent, and he does have Catch Up and Clobber to enhance himself along with Fast Forward, so it's a fairly decent amount of time