An Electrifying Battle Of Man And Mouse (Enel vs. Pikachu)

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

Idk why this is Incon and not Enel winning?

Pikachu can debuff and buff himself as much as he wants. It doesn't matter since, like Monkey has been saying, he can't damage his real body in any meaningful ways. Ice Logia, for example, can have their body completely shattered, and recover with zero actual damage, because no matter how much their elemental form is harmed, it simply won't transfer to their real body.

Enel would eventually tire Pikachu out and just kinda...beat him up? One Piece characters far weaker than Enel can fight for 12 hours on end. And that's while actively taking damage. Enel can pretty much chill out and wait for his chance to strike properly.

 

[Nierre]

One Piece characters far weaker than Enel can fight for 12 hours on end.

That... is not how stamina works at all..

Just because a character is weaker than you, doesn't mean they have less stamina than you. Moreover, there are TONS of variables that come into play in a fight for you to just "upscale" stamina that way.

Enel can pretty much chill out and wait for his chance to strike properly.

Same with Pikachu? Pikachu doesn't have to fight at all, either. Seeing how Pikachu can't actually land attacks on Enel, but he has Debuffs like Play Nice, Sweet Kiss, Charm, Growl etc, while having other moves that Amps his speed, Enel will struggle to land hits.

Hell if you wanna argue about Stamina, Pikachu's stamina according to his page, is far more impressive than Enel's.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Enel also has observation haki so even if he amps 15x speed from Pikachu, he'll be able to perceive and react to him, the same way aisa did with Enel moving through gold which is around 90% the speed of light

From what we've seen Enel can move through wood and gold... Which would give him a huge advantage, being able attack while being hidden traveling through objects

It's simply a stomp for enel

 

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

Same with Pikachu? Pikachu doesn't have to fight at all, either. Seeing how Pikachu can't actually land attacks on Enel, but he has Debuffs like Play Nice, Sweet Kiss, Charm, Growl etc, while having other moves that Amps his speed, Enel will struggle to land hits.

Hell if you wanna argue about Stamina, Pikachu's stamina according to his page, is far more impressive than Enel's.

Ok, let me frame this a different way.

Pikachu can't harm Enel. With any conventional physical attack. That is factual.

Enel CAN harm Pikachu. With any physical strike. He just needs to land the hit.

Pikachu = Doesn't have a reasonable Wincon (He can't damage Enel's real body with most of his arsenal)

Enel = Does have a wincon (striking him enough to cause him to faint, before Pikachu stacks enough buffs/debuffs)

This is my problem here. Pikachu incon comes from a WILD Pikachu automatically deciding to spam buffs/debuffs to the point where it is unhittable. Which it would have no real reason to start with when it could be more focused on...finding ways to harm Enel in the first place?

A normal Pokemon would, to my knowledge, never seek to turn a battle into a battle of attrition without reason.

 

[Imaginym]

Idk why this is Incon and not Enel winning?

Pikachu can debuff and buff himself as much as he wants. It doesn't matter since, like Monkey has been saying, he can't damage his real body in any meaningful ways. Ice Logia, for example, can have their body completely shattered, and recover with zero actual damage, because no matter how much their elemental form is harmed, it simply won't transfer to their real body.

Enel would eventually tire Pikachu out and just kinda...beat him up? One Piece characters far weaker than Enel can fight for 12 hours on end. And that's while actively taking damage. Enel can pretty much chill out and wait for his chance to strike properly.

Technically, there was the argument that it could set up Nasty Plot & then use offensive Empathic Manipulation (Via Disarming Voice.), which MIGHT work? But Disarming Voice is an Egg Move so it may be less IC.

But even then, that still requires Pikachu finding opportunities to set up not only Nasty Plot, but likely Agility as well because it's outsped to begin with in this Speed Non-Equalized match.
Plus, it's against an OP Precognition/Observation Haki user, & it likely won't realize to use Disarming Voice until it's already seen that electricity & physical attacks are failing to leave any lasting damage on Enel.

It could also buy a bit of time/make Enel a bit more predictable via Encore or Sweet Kiss, or soften his physical offenses with stuff like Charm.

Even if both can absorb electricity, & Pikachu can also heal with Wish, I'd argue the circumstances for its only win condition are kinda absurd.

It's technically possible, but would you call it fair if you're being outsped from the start by someone who also has Precognition, while you still need to find opportunities to stat amp & heal yourself several times AND learn most of your usual techniques will fail & that your main win condition is after overcoming all those previous hurdles, also doing something dubiously likely to cross your mind?

Even with our profile assumptions supporting this is a very experienced Pikachu & that Pokemon are naturally hardwired for battle, the choices it has to make are a bit counterintuitive & its pressured by an inequal action economy & Precognition-influenced "skill" difference.

Even if making this a battle of attrition made sense (Semi-plausible?) intuitively, reaching the necessary conclusions in the available circumstance seems unfeasible, IMHO.


Put briefly, I find myself agreeing this seems like a Stomp.

 

[Nierre]

Enel also has observation haki so even if he amps 15x speed from Pikachu, he'll be able to perceive and react to him, the same way aisa did with Enel moving through gold which is around 90% the speed of light

Enel uses Mantra by reading minds. If the opponent is too fast that Enel cannot track them, then he cannot read their mind.

This is my problem here. Pikachu incon comes from a WILD Pikachu automatically deciding to spam buffs/debuffs to the point where it is unhittable. Which it would have no real reason to start with when it could be more focused on...finding ways to harm Enel in the first place?

Fair enough on the wild point, I was assuming that this was a trainer's/Ash's Pikachu

I'll rescind my vote FRA

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Enel uses Mantra by reading minds. If the opponent is too fast that Enel cannot track them, then he cannot read their mind.

before he reads their minds, he amps his senses with observation haki... What are you even trying to say?

I never even brought up Enel's mind reading...

 

[Nierre]

before he reads their minds, he amps his senses with observation haki... What are you even trying to say?

I never even brought up Enel's mind reading...

bc that's how Enel uses Observation Haki in combat... via Mind Reading.
It's the sole reason why Luffy turning off his mind worked against him.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

bc that's how Enel uses Observation Haki in combat... via Mind Reading.
It's the sole reason why Luffy turning off his mind worked against him.

... Are you just going to ignore what I'm saying?
Mind reading works first by sharpening ones senses to sense their presence

Sharpen your senses and realize the presence!
It is a high spirit that detects the presence of creatures around you and their emotions. It is effective not only in battle, but also in foreseeing and avoiding danger!

And then read their mind

Read the mind of the opponent and sense the next action to be taken! This ability can be applied in a variety of situations, such as avoiding an enemy's attack or foreseeing his/her movement to attack.

 

[Nierre]

Yes.. I know...

I'm just going to stop because I've already removed my vote FRA

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Yes.. I know...

I'm just going to stop because I've already removed my vote FRA

... Pls sometimes just admit you were wrong or that you misinterpreted what I said or something, because otherwise it just looks like you're blatantly just stonewalling after downplaying

 

[Nierre]

... Pls sometimes just admit you were wrong or that you misinterpreted what I said or something, because otherwise it just looks like you're blatantly just stonewalling after downplaying

????

I wasn't wrong though, I was correct? Enel uses Mind Reading. Here was my thought process:

Despite having Mantra, Luffy was still able to tag Enel, with an attack not faster than his own speed. Yes, Luffy tricked Enel's Mind Reading, as you said, Enel has to sharpen his senses to activate his Mind Reading (Sharpen Senses -> Mind Reading), but if Pikachu is capable of debuffing Enel's speed and amping his own making himself far faster than Enel (as he would be capable of stacking AFAIK), then Enel wouldn't be able to sense Pikachu, aka read his mind. And in doing so allowing Pikachu to easily react to Enel's physical attacks. That was my thought process, but as I had stated earlier, I had no idea this was a wild Pikachu, so all the shit that I said Pikachu would do, would be VERY convenient and highly improbable of a wild Pikachu to do.

I wasn't stonewalling nor downplaying. My vote was hinging on Pikachu's MANY amps that I thought he'd use because I assumed he had a trainer, but since it's a wild Pikachu, Pikachu obviously has no chance here. I'm not stonewalling either because I literally said I would stop arguing with you. I'd appreciate if you'd stop accusing me.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

I'm stonewalling either because I literally said I would stop arguing with you. I'd appreciate if you'd stop accusing me.

I'm not accusing you of anything, just saying that's what it looks if your going to always leave/disengage whenever someone clarifies more/argues

Despite having Mantra, Luffy was still able to tag Enel, with an attack not faster than his own speed.

Luffy is quite alot faster than Enel's movement.. So not sure what you mean by that, it bouncing of will also just go even faster as well... Enel was also able to perceive all those attacks... So not sure how that scan does anything?

but if Pikachu is capable of debuffing Enel's speed and amping his own making himself far faster than Enel (as he would be capable of stacking AFAIK), then Enel wouldn't be able to sense Pikachu, aka read his mind.

Yes... He would, since again... Enel with observation haki can perceive and react to things much faster than him, luffy moving so fast that it outpaces he's body/movement speed doesn't debunk that especially when he perceived and reacted to them

Unless Pikachu can amp himself thousands of times, Enel is able to sense and perceive him

 

[Ryuga21]

Enel FRA

 

[koopa3144]

Idk If anyone noted this yet but Pikachu's profile isn't the best rn. Pikachu should be 7-A due to the current middle evolution scaling being to Girafarig who has 1/10 of the power of a fully evolved Pokémon. I'm also gonna be making a profile revision for the Pichu line soon so it's probably best to wait on that before using Pikachu in matches.

 

[Imaginym]

Enel FRA

Do you think Pikachu has fairly & reasonably achievable win conditions?
Because if it lacks those, it's a stomp.

Idk If anyone noted this yet but Pikachu's profile isn't the best rn. Pikachu should be 7-A due to the current middle evolution scaling being to Girafarig who has 1/10 of the power of a fully evolved Pokémon. I'm also gonna be making a profile revision for the Pichu line soon so it's probably best to wait on that before using Pikachu in matches.

Looking forward to following along with how that goes. Thanks for all your hard work on this verse.

 

[Ryuga21]

Do you think Pikachu has fairly & reasonably achievable win conditions?
Because if it lacks those, it's a stomp.

I think It's either Enel or Incon. Tbh, can't see Pikachu actually winning.

 

[Imaginym]

I think It's either Enel or Incon. Tbh, can't see Pikachu actually winning.

Thing is, Stomps aren't to be voted on/added to profiles. If 1 side lacks any plausible/feasible win conditions, then it's a stomp, generally speaking.

If you really can't see a reasonable way of Pikachu winning, without even unlikely outcomes (As in, Enel wins more on average, if not the majority of times.) as a possibility, wouldn't that be a stomp?

& the problem with the Incon argument is Enel still having his metal staff & Precognition. Maybe not infallible here but ehhh....

Sorry if I'm being a bother.

 

[Ryuga21]

I don't know, Pikachu can pull the scenario to a draw. He doesn't actually have a way to win the fight or finish Enel, but he can low his AP to the point where both of them leave with no option to win. However, I still believe it is likely that Enel would try to impale or crush Pikachu and kill him (considering his advantage in LS and Mobility), before the fight reached that point.

Either a draw, or Enel.