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Amane Shinomiya vs Yhwach

Wait a minute, this guy is only 5-C with an ability, and is physically 8-C.

Yhwach's passive Reiatsu crushes him.
 
Yeah, now that I have read this characters page - and I am 99% he gets stomped hard.

As I said above, he gets passively Reiatsu crushed - to the point where he will get be disintegrated in both body and soul.

And the Nameless Glory, his special ability? It is just a worse version of The Visionary that Gremmy has.

It gets nulled, assuming that Yhwach even needs to do that.
 
This guy has a form of passive "wish". His belief is turned into reality, these desires usually range from "winning without fighting" (which results in stuff happening to his opponents and therefore being unable to fight, the best doctor in the series had made mistakes [in the past, yes it somehow affected her analyzes which she did in the past] on the analizes of 150 patients simultaneously, others break body parts or become flatly incapable of fighting etc), "everything going smoothly" (Having wished for that the terrorists had taken measurements against a traitor and ambush on a "hunch", simply because of Amane and him wanting everything to go smoothly) and many other wishes (such as when he destroyed the MC's lil sister before she could fight because she ambushed him which he already knew she would, though i need to go through that scene again in the light novel cus i don't remember what his exact wish was that time).

About reiatsu don't worry. Not only does Reiatsu not have 4km range passive, but attacking him is pretty much useless due to his ability. Abilities will fail to affect him due to mana (in this case reiatsu) mistakes, magic gets deconstructed, impaling him makes the dmg non lethal (if you can even impale him that is), trapping him will result in random events that will lead to him being free again, physically attack him and you'll miss or trip. And what's worse, he has no idea how all of this happens, he just cares about the final result. So he doesn't need to know reiatsu's weakness and wish for that to happen, he just needs to wish for nothing to affect him (which is like a constant/passive wish on him as even a surprise ambush failed, unless he intentionally turns it off like how he did against ikki though).

About the rest he has his passive fate hax (so what he wants WILL happen, cus of MUH goddess favor, as i said a guy turned a traitor without it being an asspull mid series with his own volition cus he wanted everything to go smoothly xD), probability hax (Which makes most forms of attack useless for dumb reasons, tripping, rookie mistakes, light failure, he could just make yhwach not pay attention for all he cares, he just wants something), power null (which is a combination of both fate and prob hax but used on abilities) and lastly is his Dark Aura. He makes some (i think) invisible hands that ignore the process of causality, so they just inflict results without any need for a cause. Pretty broken, the result he inflicts is based on his wish though.

And no it's not like Gremmy. Gremmy uses imagination to bring things into existence. To my knowledge he has never used it for probability, fate and causality hax, let alone on Amane's level (not to mention that Amane's is passive).

Also what makes you sure Yhwach will understand Amane's abilities, assuming he will even be able to try to do that when he's getting prob and fate haxed like crazy.

So quick sum up (without the context and powers explanation):

- Reiatsu won't work since he ain't touching with stuff like that Amane (the others tried..it didn't end so well), plus it doesn't have the range needed.

- Precog and Null, would have to get past passive fate and probability hax.
 
Okay, let us get one thing straight.

Having one's beliefs become reality isn't a passive ability - it is a thought based ability. He has to make a wish for it to be a reality. He needs to think to activate it, it might stay on indefinitely, but that isn't passive.


Yhwach's range is planetary after he absorbed the Soul King.

"Planetary with the Soul King absorbed (His influence can affect all three realms in the series)"

And his "having mana make mistakes" his is power null, correct? That's what it says on his profile:

"Power Nullification (When Shizuku tried to ambush Amane she was utterly destroyed because of his wishes making it so that she would make mistakes in the use of mana, thing she as a high-class blazer with abnormal level of mana control considers child's play, as such magical attacks would be almost useless against him)"

Well, sorry to tell you this, but that will not work on Yhwach. Yhwach resisted conceptual power null and stats reduction before and was able to nullify them as well, so Amane's power null is out.:

Resistance to Power Nullification (Yhwach regained his ability to speak after it was negated and even half of his power after it was halved by Ichibē. After he regains The Almighty, Yhwach completely nullified the effect of Ichimonji that stripped him of his name and power and reduced his physical capability to a black ant)


>And no it's not like Gremmy. Gremmy uses imagination to bring things into existence. To my knowledge, he has never used it for probability, fate and causality hax, let alone on Amane's level (not to mention that Amane's is passive).

He never used his abilities to manipulate fate, causality, or probability - but the act of having one's wish become reality is the exact same ability, Amane just used his differently.

>Also what makes you sure Yhwach will understand Amane's abilities, assuming he will even be able to try to do that when he's getting prob and fate haxxed like crazy.

Are you serious?

"Information Analysis (Yhwach can understand all powers he sees in the future)"

That's why I know for a fact that he will understand Amane's abilities - because to do so, is one of his abilities.

>So quick sum up (without the context and powers explanation):

- Reiatsu won't work since he ain't touching with stuff like that Amane (the others tried..it didn't end so well), plus it doesn't have the range needed.

- Precog and Null, would have to get past passive fate and probability hax.

I already explained that yes, he will be able to bypass Amane's power null, and yes, he does have the range.

Yhwach's Schrift is also superior to every other Schrift in the series, which include those of Jugram Haschwalth and Uryu Ishida.

Jugram actually has passive probability manipulation with his Schrift

"The Balance: B - The Balance is Haschwalth's Schrift that allows him to manipulate the fortune and misfortune that occurs within his sphere of influence, all good fortune experienced by the opponent in causing injury to him will be directed back to them as misfortuneof the same magnitude. Furthermore, he can redirect all misfortune that befalls him onto his Freund Schild. On top of this, any misfortune that befalls the Freund Schild can be reapplied back to his opponent to cause even more misfortune."

Uryu has thought-based causality manipulation with his Schrift.

"Antithesis: Uryü's Schrift allows him to reverses events that already taken place between two designated target. Such as switching the damage done to himself with Haschwalth, thus leaving Haschwalth with his injuries and Uryü with Haschwalth's injuries."

Yhwach also negated Orihime's causality manipulation, and Yhwach has a resistance to the ability:

"Regenerationn Negation (Yhwach can rewrite the future so that everything he destroys will remain broken in the future, even with Orihime's ability to reject past events and causality she was unable to repair Tensa Zangetsu after it was broken by Yhwach)"

"Resistance to Causality Manipulation (Orihime couldn't bring back the Soul King even through her power to reject past events and causality) and potentially many others following the death of the Sternritter"

And while Yhwach never fought another person with Fate Manipulation, he himself can control and manipulate all of Fate in whatever way he pleases, even being able to rewrite his own death after he was already killed.

"The Almighty: Yhwach's own power and the source of his designation as "A". Upon activation, Yhwach gains his full power and his irises and pupils are split in two. Had he opened his eyes once in the 999 years after his original defeat, during which it took 900 for merely his heart to start beating again and another 90 to regain self-awareness, he would've been unable to control his own power and accidentally stolen the lives of all his loyal Sternritter.

The power of the Almighty is to see all that lies in the future, observing all possible futures like grains of sand in the wind, knowledge that Yhwach uses to predict his opponent's actions and act accordingly. However, this is only a portion of its true power, which is the ability to outright choose between the futures that lie before him, rewriting fate as he pleases to best suit his goals. Yhwach can use this power to set up traps in his opponent's future paths, easily circumvent any defensive measures his opponent takes, and shatter their weapons and forms, breaking Tensa Zangetsu and claiming to have destroyed all the Bankai in the future. He can even rewrite a future in which he has died, and it is said that any power that Yhwach sees in the future will become his ally and grow incapable of harming him at all."

And finally, I don't see any resistance to being Power Nulled on Amane's profile, so Amane's ability will get nulled - and I see no proof of that not happening.

Not be able to do as such as I have explained, he doesn't have to, since he dies to Reiatsu crush - which will work.
 
@Warren

Depends. If he has to think to make wishes yes that is thought based, that doesn't apply to stuff he wishes for as his passive mindset. Any wish Amane makes is thought based "except" for his passive protection, "everything to go smoothly" (fate hax) and "avoid fighting" (depends can go from fate to probability hax). Wishes that are part of someone's mindset are passive because in a random encounter (which is what SBA goes for) Amane would have these passive wishes active, which is why people like Ban Midou and Akabane Kuroudo had "passive" win hax (because even though it's their belief/wish shaping reality, that wish is always there, or Hiiragi can keep his "passive" absorption even though it's based on his envy (he passively envies everything and in a fight his envy would be there before he does anything). Same for Amane's wish, most wishes are not passive, but protection and the 2 others i mentioned are passive since they are part of the character's mindset, so they don't require his thought process.

Hmm that range applies to his overall range. He doesn't have planetary range with passive reiatsu, or if he does pls do show me humans on the other side of the world getting passively reiatsu crushed.

It's not exactly power null. It's still a form of power null since it makes abilities not work on Amane, but that's different from stripping Yhwach from his powers. Yhwach gained his powers back after being turned into an "ant" power wise. Amane's power isn't that, it's his passive protection that you can't hurt him. If you try to attack him, the attack will go through, though it won't work on him (it will work anywhere else). So yes his reiatsu ain't crushing him past his passive probability and fate protection (yes the protection is mostly just fate haxing or prob haxing so that Amane will come out fine in the end, it doesn't directly null powers, it just saves Amane from said powers, which is why my argument didn't go like "Amane nulls gg" cus his powers don't do that passively).

If gremmy never used his on these things, his is based on imagination rather than wish, and everything he imagines becomes reality, while Amane has a form of "my wish will be granted through means unimportant to me". Are we just saying "lol it's similar, nice", cus i don't see any other point to the gremmy similarity xD

Yes but his info manip is only for the abilities "he sees being used". And to my knowledge he has never "understood" an ability as complex as Nameless Glory, with every ability being capable of a single effect usually (prob manip, causality manip, creation etc). Yhwach's ability is only for the powers he can see having a visible effect (from what i remember, i may be wrong). Understanding and nulling the full extent of Nameless Glory would be like completely nulling Medaka Kurokami's arsenal, cus he saw 1 of her dozens of powers being used.

And Yhwach's fate manip is useless here, as it won't be able to help. In a fight Passive vs Active, the passive stomps. If he gets passively fate haxed, he can't actively reverse that with his own fate hax. Since he'll be under it's effect.

And the resistance to causality doesn't apply here. That resistance to causality is only for offensive purposes, not defensive ones. His actions cannot be undone via causality reversal, that doesn't mean Amane can't just go like "causality is dead to me" and induce effects on him. So yes it's resistance to causality but that only applies to his actions (his actions are permanent), he has no showings of resisting abilities which ignore the process of causality.
 
>Hmm that range applies to his overall range. He doesn't have planetary range with passive reiatsu, or if he does pls do show me humans on the other side of the world getting passively reiatsu crushed.

I believe that normally his range is normally a lot smaller than planetary, but Yhwach can make it so that his Reiatsu is affecting areas all over the planet.

>It's not exactly power null. It's still a form of power null since it makes abilities not work on Amane, but that's different from stripping Yhwach from his powers. Yhwach gained his powers back after being turned into an "ant" power wise. Amane's power isn't that, it's his passive protection that you can't hurt him. If you try to attack him, the attack will go through, though it won't work on him (it will work anywhere else). So yes his reiatsu ain't crushing him past his passive probability and fate protection (yes the protection is mostly just fate haxing or prob haxing so that Amane will come out fine in the end, it doesn't directly null powers, it just saves Amane from said powers, which is why my argument didn't go like "Amane nulls gg" cus his powers don't do that passively).

Ichibe didn't just strip Yhwach of his powers, he changed the meaning of Yhwach's being, by taking his "name" from him - and thus his powers as well - while giving him the "name" Black Ant and giving him those powers.

Yhwach was able to resist that effect and use his Almighty to nullify the ability. "Making the energy not work properly" is not better than that, and if Yhwach can resist that, then he can overpower Amane's power.

So even if you think that his Reiatsu won't immediately just crush Amane - which it most likely will, then Yhwach can just nullify the effect.

>Are we just saying "lol it's similar, nice"

That's exactly what I am saying.

Having your very thoughts, your dreams become reality, is very much the same ability for both Gremmy and Amane.

>Yes but his info manip is only for the abilities "he sees being used". And to my knowledge he has never "understood" an ability as complex as Nameless Glory, with every ability being capable of a single effect usually (prob manip, causality manip, creation etc). Yhwach's ability is only for the powers he can see having a visible effect (from what i remember, i may be wrong). Understanding and nulling the full extent of Nameless Glory would be like completely nulling Medaka Kurokami's arsenal, cus he saw 1 of her dozens of powers being used.

No.

All the power that belongs he sees in the future will become known to him - it doesn't have to be a physical ability, where did you get that?

By that logic, then As Nodt or Jugram Haschwalth could beat Yhwach because their abilities are non-physical.

As long as the ability is being used, he will see it, he will know it, and he will nullify it while simultaneously becoming immune to said ability.

And what? How is Nameless Glory "too complex"?

Yhwach's Almighty is superior to Jurgram's passive probability manipulation, Uryu and Orihime's Causality Manipulation, Ichibe's Conceptual manipulation, Gremmy's reality warping which gave him numerous other abilities such as BFR, Transmutation, Death Manipulation, Type 5 Immortality, etcetera.

Not to mention, a byproduct of Yhwach's own power, Still Silver, was able to negate ALL of Yhwach's abilities - including the Almighty, so he should be able to negate his own Fate Manipulation as well.

Comparing Nameless Glory to Medaka's entire arsenal is faulty because Nameless Glory is Amane's entire arsenal - it is the basis of every other power he has. The origin for which everything he has was spawned - that's a major weakness, not a benefit. It's like a series circuit, if you shut off the main power, then the rest go away as well.

And once again, a similar thing to Gremmy. Gremmy's power is reality warping via thinking, but with it, Gremmy can create life and bestow powers on to them, he can kill people, he can turn a person's bones to cookies, erase his own death, etcetera. He too has many abilities that stem from his singular one.


So not only has Yhwach's Almighty have superiority and/or negated every power that Amane has, but he also has superiority of a person with an ability that grants that person other abilities.

Amane gets nulled.

>And Yhwach's fate manip is useless here, as it won't be able to help. In a fight Passive vs Active, the passive stomps. If he gets passively fate haxed, he can't actively reverse that with his own fate hax. Since he'll be under it's effect.

This is not true at all. Having fate passively work for you doesn't stop others from altering fate if they have the ability. It's just a non-active way of using the ability.

Amane's fate manipulation is akin to Supernatural Luck, in that fate is manipulated because it accompanies his desires - that doesn't negate others from manipulating fate or rewriting fate, espeically if said person's active fate manipulation is stronger - which Yhwach's is, as it can manipulate all of Fate.

For example, let's say that you are bowling. It is your second throw, and you have one pin you need to hit. As you throw the bowling ball, there are two possible options - you miss the pin, or you hit it getting a spare.

If you are passively having fate benefit you, then that means you will hit the pin, getting the spare - but that doesn't stop someone else from using their precognition to see the fate of the ball, and actively making it so your bowling ball misses the pin with their stronger fate powers.

>And the resistance to causality doesn't apply here. That resistance to causality is only for offensive purposes, not defensive ones. His actions cannot be undone via causality reversal, that doesn't mean Amane can't just go like "causality is dead to me" and induce effects on him. So yes it's resistance to causality but that only applies to his actions (his actions are permanent), he has no showings of resisting abilities which ignore the process of causality.

The Almighty is superior to Uryu's Antithesis, which is an ability that can switch the states between any two things. Including wounds.

So even if Yhwach's resistance is not enough, nor not applicable or whatever, his Almighty should just negate it.


In conclusion, Amane either dies instantly, or gets nulled and then dies instantly.

This is a stomp for Yhwach.
 
That's not passive, so there goes that.

Again 1 is "stripping someone of his powers" and the other is "your powers can't work on me". Saying 1 is superior to the other is like saying oranges are superior to apples cus they weigh more. They are 2 different things, you can't compare 2 type of power null to another. Conceptual EE is >>> physical destruction EE. Yet resisting CEE doesn't mean you resist physical destruction EE. Even though 1 is FAR superior to the other they can't compare cus they aren't the same thing, so no NG is not better than that, but it's different so that whole point is moot. And Almighty is not any better. The almighty doing stuff to a passive protection while he's passively fate haxed. That would be a HUGE overestimation without feats. Having his fate haxed into losing and passive protection can easily lead to Yhwach closing his eyes of his own will cus he thinks "oh he's a kid".

Ok, they are similar i guess.

Ok yeah that makes sense.

Not without feats. The people who can in verse resist this are acasuals. And i would actually need feat for Almighty being used to overpower a fate while only having 1 fate. Almighty doesn't change fate, it only chooses fates. Out of countless possibilities it chooses what it wants, if someone only leaves 1 future, Almighty won't be able to manipulate fate as it won't have a choice. Furthermore, why is Almighty > NG again? Both are 3D i don't see where you got that from.

That causality thing is the same thing really. Instead of "erasing cause and effect" it's "swapping them". Permanent actions negates both of those, since they are working by the same idea of "the causality system". Amane's causality manip works by ignoring this system.

And again the "Lol Negate" can happen, though i would need some hard proof from you that it can actually take care of a passive probability manipulation and passive fate manipulation. Yhwach using the almighty for anything when both of those are in effect seems like a terrible stretch especially when we have established long ago that passive stuff like fate/probability/law would be superior to other active hax, cus the result has been set before you even try to do anything. So unless Yhwach has actually used his powers under such conditions i don't believe you can use it as an argument.
 
>They are 2 different things, you can't compare 2 types of power null to another. Conceptual EE is >>> physical destruction EE. Yet resisting CEE doesn't mean you resist physical destruction EE.

Yes, it does. Something being conceptual means it is the most fundamental point of something, in this case, Existence Erasure.

Physical Existence Erasure itself affects the body, mind, and soul. Conceptual Existence Erasure adds the concept of a being to that list.

That is like saying that a person who resists atomic matter destruction can't resist molecular matter destruction because it is a bigger version of the same thing.

>Not without feats. The people who can in verse resist this are acasuals. And i would actually need feat for Almighty being used to overpower a fate while only having 1 fate. Almighty doesn't change fate, it only chooses fates. Out of countless possibilities it chooses what it wants, if someone only leaves 1 future, Almighty won't be able to manipulate fate as it won't have a choice. Furthermore, why is Almighty > NG again? Both are 3D i don't see where you got that from.

"The power of the Almighty is not to 'see the future', but the power to 'transform it.'"

"'The Almighty' is not the power to 'see the future'. It is the power to 'change it'."

"I can even rewrite futures..."

And what? There would not be only one fate, there would be countless fates that Yhwach sees. Amane's power would just choose the one that best coincides with his desire, while Yhwach's power can choose another.

As all possibilities and futures are like grains of sand on which he sees. Changing the future is just jumping on from one grain of sand to another. From where his vision stands, he can see any changes to fate and possibility, and control the outcome.

He can see what future that Amane sees, and change it to a different future. He will chop down Amane's trying to change such an ability. He can control all of the fate that he sees.

That's why his ability is better - because of his precognition that goes with it.

Also, you are forgetting the most important thing, every other power from the Almighty besides Fate Manipulation.

>And again the "Lol Negate" can happen, though i would need some hard proof from you that it can actually take care of a passive probability manipulation and passive fate manipulation. Yhwach using the almighty for anything when both of those are in effect seems like a terrible stretch especially when we have established long ago that passive stuff like fate/probability/law would be superior to other active hax, cus the result has been set before you even try to do anything. So unless Yhwach has actually used his powers under such conditions i don't believe you can use it as an argument.

I already explained why he should be able to get passed passive abilities - his superiority to other Schrifts should allow him to negate Jugram's passive probability manipulation - and he negates causality, fate, and concept manipulation just fine.

Also, according to the profile, Amane's fate shit works around himself effecting the world so things would go his way, but that doesn't stop others from using their powers in general, it negates them from being able to harm Amane's person

That would be why Shizuku failed to ambush him because she tried to attack him - Yhwach's shit is thought based, so he doesn't have to get close to him.


Since this is 5-C Yhwach, his "eyes" are already opened.

Meaning that he will be seeing all of the future, and any power that comes across his vision will be known to him, and any power that he knows takes his side, so that not only can they not be used to defeat him, they can't even be used to harm him.

Precognition + Information Analysis + Power null and Reactive Evolution = Dead Kid

He sees the future, sees the powers of the Nameless Glory in the future and instantly knows what they are, he both negates Amane's powers and becomes resistant to them - which then leads to Amane getting Reiatsu crushed.

And yes, he can even do this while being afflicted with said power he sees in the future as shown with him negating Ichibe's conceptual shit while being inflicted with it.


Also, what is Amane's wincon anyway? He can't kill Yhwach - as Yhwach will just come back.

Anyway, Yhwach negates and then disintegrates. This is a stomp.
 
  • Completely and utterly false. Conceptual manipulation works by erasing someone's concept. If you resist conceptual manip, you will resist conceptual EE. Though something like Hakkai and Sirzechs Lucifer will still be able to erase you, cus their EE works by attacking you untill there is nothing left. It doesn't try to destroy your concept (in which case you currently resist), but will just EE you by other means. Again yes the conceptual EE is stronger, but resist conceptual manip and you're safe, but it doesn't save you from Destruction EE, because they don't even play by the same rules. The Power Null page even goes out of it's way to establish the types and mention that the mechanics can be different "Power Nullification, or Negation, is the ability to simply nullify the powers and abilities of others, negating their effects. The mechanisms by which this effect is accomplished and their restrictions vary from character to character," "Some characters accomplish these effects through applications of other abilities rather than an standalone ability in itself, such as using Power Modification to render powers useless."
So again, they are different types of power null, 1 is stripping you of your powers, the other is making them not work on someone. Different mechanics have been discussed far too many times already, i don't wanna go over it again. If the mechanics of a power null are different then the resistance cannot apply (similarly to how Mael's power null would still work on Yhwach even though Yhwach resists, cus the types are different).

  • You still didn't explain how Yhwach's fate is somehow superior to Amane's passive fate. And all those Rhitter abilities. Tell me when you find something that passively fate haxes Yhwach and Yhwach just b-slaps it outta the way. Yhwach has never negged passive fate hax (or fate hax at all), you can't assume lol amighty in every case.
  • It doesn't work around "himself". It makes it so that what he wants will be realized through unknown means to him. Even if he wishes for his opponent to just die or for something on the other side of the world to happen. If he makes the wish "anything can happen" just to realize his wish (how that's done, is unknown, but the name literally says "Goddess Excesive Favor" so idk, maybe untill more is revealed in the light novel). Also his powers literally resulted into some guy turning traitor and a girl creating random copies without knowledge what so ever, it even resulted in Shizuku ambushing him right before the match. So yes it will even resort to affecting people and their decisions. Also again it's passive protection and offense (prob and fate), i don't see Yhwach getting around those cus "why not". Again none of the schritter abilities are passive on this level. And you have yet to show me Yhwach manipulating his fate once it's already been decided before he can even concieve it, let alone getting past probability that affects his abilities.
 
Damn this actually is a good debate going on, gonna vote now but am fully willing to change my vote if things change, currently my vote goes to Yhwach FRA, again sticking around cause I actually like it when characters have people dedicated enough to go in depth with one another about one character's abilities against another, idk if anyone else feels this way but seeing this happen is exciting to me
 
That's the point. Im sorry but i can't count your vote. Cus this is either Yhwach Nulls and stomps (which i don't believe can happen) or Amane passives. Both of which are stomp conditions. So again, im sorry but right now i can't count votes as arguments on both sides aren't guaranteeing a fair match, they are just arguing which character stomps.
 
The problem that I have with that is the fact that both sides are arguing/debating on who's abilities are superior, it's not a clear cut stomp (aka we don't know who stomps who), if it was I'd absolutely agree with you 100% no question, yes it's a stomp but we don't know who, so it's likely gonna come down to votes in the end of who people think stomps who as we've seen with other threads with Bleach, I'm not even gonna mention which ones but I'm sure you know
 
Sigurd Snake in The Eye said:
Yhwach passively kills him.
Click to expand...
I put my arguments as to why that doesn't happen.

@ZellTemplar

It's a clear cut stomp we just don't know in which direction. xD And we don't count stomp votes, as in it's against the Vs Discussion rules. Im pretty sure about that.
 
Actually I checked and did not see that present, just says avoid creating stomp threads, and if it was truly clear cut we'd all know who'd win, but again it's a debate
 
Sigurd Snake in The Eye said:
@Fire
You mean your statement of Reiatsu being like 4km? He just stands there and the kid dies instanteously.
Click to expand...
No i meant Amane lol noping any attempt for Reiatsu to crush him.
 
Sigurd Snake in The Eye said:
How exactly would that work? he'd just get disintegrated and nulled.
Click to expand...
By working...reiatsu would just fail to crush him due to his passive protection. And nulling would have to somehow get past this protection and work when Yhwach is already fate haxed. Yhwach has no feats of working under such conditions so it would be a terrible stretch, bordering on an assumption to say Yhwach would still be able to do shit.
 
ZellTemplar55 said:
Actually I checked and did not see that present, just says avoid creating stomp threads, and if it was truly clear cut we'd all know who'd win, but again it's a debate
Click to expand...
Ok then let's decide once the debate is over.

Assuming this debate will ever be over
 
Lol what? He gets nulled simple as that since he has no resistance to power null like at all. Fate haxing someone who can fate hax? Yeah this isn't happening from what I see based on his profile. He doesn't even have a win con it's at best an incon if you somehow argue he's immune to literally everything Yhwach does.

Reiatsu will work for sure, he's like building level physically, he'd get crushed with incredible ease and cease to exist. Unless you can show him somehow stopping an Aura that can stretch at least 20km like a base form Yama several arcs ago.

So power null and reactive evolution to his entire arsenal just via looking at him and "understanding" his powers, therefore making them his ally. Also he resist precog up to his level.

Can this guy even see Yhwach?

Edit - Also that 5-C rating makes no sense, someone asked what would happened if he wished for the moon to fall, and he ask why would he do that?
 
>Lol what? He gets nulled simple as that since he has no resistance to power null like at all.

He doesn't have resistance, but he has protection, so...same thing, since it protects him from damage based attacks as well as hax.

>Fate haxing someone who can fate hax?

Yep. Amane's fate hax >>> Yhwach's fate hax by virtue of it being passive. If you can show me Yhwach fate haxing himself after he's been fate haxed into losing and is constantly being haxed into making mistakes and even making bad choices (which can lead to him not using his stuff, closing the almighty, virtually anything that will lead to Amane winning), then no you can't argue "Yhwach fate hax gg" cus Amane's is passive so it prececes Yhwach by a landslide.

>Reiatsu will work for sure, he's like building level physically, he'd get crushed with incredible ease and cease to exist.

Yeah he's building level, and has protection. Making even people who should be able to casually stomp him, fail at everything, because their powers keep failing (some fail in magic, some fail in mechanics, some fail in result, some are made to fail and some are not even used like Shizuku's intangibility transformation). So again, reiatsu has enough AP to crush him, but through passive protection Reiatsu ain't touching him.

>So power null and reactive evolution to his entire arsenal just via looking at him and "understanding" his powers, therefore making them his ally.

And that while being fate haxed and constantly being forced to make mistakes by like 4 passives at once? Nah.
 
What mistakes? you're arguments seem theoretical to me. What scenario will come that will allow him to evade getting instantly deleted in Yhwach's presence? He'd have to leave the entire city and more which would be self BFR, What mistakes will allow him to somehow shutdown The Almighty? according to you he's invulnerable to whatever he wants so I'm wondering why you made this battle if you think Yhwach is inferior to him and incapable of doing anything to him via your responses.

Yhwachs has nulled Ichibe's hax which is type 3 concept manipulation, nothing in his profile suggests he doesn't get nulled. There isn't a single thing this guy could do to The Almighty with lasting effects. Jugram has passive probability manipulation and Yhwach casually negged him with Auswhalen. Having a passive means nothing if you can't do anything with it.

So as it stands he still gets nulled before the battle begins since Almighty is already active, Yhwach already knows his abilities, and has already beenade pretty much useless against him. and this character has pretty much 0 physical stats he can't even pull an Ichigo...
 
Well yes, that's the point. The ways in which the things get acomplished are random. Not even Amane knows how his wishes will be realized. Reiatsu will not crush Amane, there will be a problem or something else that will prevent it from crushing Amane. Without resistance to probability and fate, Yhwach won't be getting past the passive protection. And i made this thread cus i said Amane should be higher, Warren said Yhwach should be higher. This is bound to be a stomp, in which direction we'll have to see.

Almighty is active, the nulling requires thought, as it requires Yhwach to watch and analyze powers in the future.

All the powers you mentioned can't hold a candle to Nameless Glory due to how it affects fate and probability passively making it so that anything Yhwach tries to do is for naught.

Again nulling ain't happening due to passives
 
>Completely and utterly false. Conceptual manipulation works by erasing someone's concept. If you resist conceptual manip, you will resist conceptual EE. Though something like Hakkai and Sirzechs Lucifer will still be able to erase you, cus their EE works by attacking you until there is nothing left.

What the ****? No, where did you this misinformation?

Resisting Conceptual Manipulation does not mean that you can resist Conceptual EE - at all. It means you resist have your concept ****** with, in whatever way it is applied to you.

Existence Erasure deletes people from existence, Conceptual existence erasure also deletes people from existence, but down to the very concept of their being. So not even the concept remains when they are deleted.

You can literally ask anyone this question and they will tell you as such.

>Yep. Amane's fate hax >>> Yhwach's fate hax by virtue of it being passive. If you can show me Yhwach fate haxing himself after he's been fate haxed into losing and is constantly being haxed into making mistakes and even making bad choices (which can lead to him not using his stuff, closing the almighty, virtually anything that will lead to Amane winning), then no you can't argue "Yhwach fate hax gg" cus Amane's is passive so it prececes Yhwach by a landslide.

A power being passive, does not make stronger.

Darth Nihilus has passive mindhax, while Darth Sidious has thought based mindhax?

Is Darth Nihilus's mindhax >>>>> Darth Sidious's mindhax? No, it isn't.

Passive hax isn't greater than active hax, it is faster.

All Amane's passive fate hax means, is that he will always choose a future before Yhwach, but that doesn't stop Yhwach from choosing his own future because he can see all of fate and choose and transform said fate to what he desires.

The reason the Almighty is "better" than Amane's shit is that with Yhwach's Precognition he can see what future that Amane's power chooses and chose a different one.

Their fate powers would counter-act each other.

Also, as I said before, Still Silver, a byproduct of Yhwach's own power, was able to negate all of Yhwach's abilities - including the Almighty - so he should be able to negate fate hax just fine.

Also also, Yhwach can control his own fate, as shown when he brought himself back from death after he was already killed, so he would most definitely be able to change the fate of Amane's power by changing his own fate.

>It doesn't work around "himself". It makes it so that what he wants will be realized through unknown means to him. Even if he wishes for his opponent to just die or for something on the other side of the world to happen. If he makes the wish "anything can happen" just to realize his wish (how that's done, is unknown, but the name literally says "Goddess Excesive Favor" so idk, maybe untill more is revealed in the light novel). Alsohis powers literally resulted into some guy turning traitor and a girl creating random copies without knowledge what so ever, it even resulted in Shizuku ambushing him right before the match. So yes it will even resort to affecting people and their decisions. Also again it's passive protection and offense (prob and fate), i don't see Yhwach getting around those cus "why not". Again none of the schritter abilities are passive on this level.

What the **** are you talking about?

"Fate Manipulation (Manipulates the fate of the world around him)"

"Power Nullification (When Shizuku tried to ambush Amane she was utterly destroyed because of his wishes making it so that she would make mistakes in the use of mana, thing she as a high-class blazer with abnormal level of mana control considers child's play, as such magical attacks would be almost useless against him) "

According to you, his three main wishes are:

  • Passive protection
  • Everything goes smoothly for me
  • I don't want to fight.
His very profile states that his powers defensive abilities will alter the world from stopping others from harming him by "manipulating the fate of the world around him", or having some being incapable of using their magic because when they ambushed them "their mana made mistakes".

The stuff that protects him is because his wishes are for him to be protected - now he could wish for someone to die, but that is an active wish, not one of his passive protective ones.

And what? Jugram has passive probability manipulation. And guess what? Jugram can't touch Yhwach's Almighty.

The powers don't matter, Yhwach can nullify it.

Also, where are the quotes of his power protecting him being power nulled from a person using a thought-based move 4KM's away or having a person's passive matter/soul destroying aura killing them?

The magic he "made not work" was a physical attack right when he was being ambushed - Ice manipulation from the girl's profile. Has he ever stopped anything like Yhwach's non-physical powers before from that far away?

>And I made this thread cus I said Amane should be higher, Warren said Yhwach should be higher. This is bound to be a stomp, in which direction we'll have to see.

Also, Amane isn't 5-C, he is 8-C - he wouldn't be on the 5-C list in the first place.

Just having an ability that is a certain tier, doesn't qualify you for that tier - it has to be a person's physical strength.
 
Physical strength? Ugh, with that again i believe we've gone over this, which is why BlazBlue characters can be in 2-A even though they are 2-A "via hax only". We need to be consistent.

Concept Manipulating someone from "existence" to "non-existence" and boom. That character is now conceptually non existent, it's ofc not the only method to do that, there are others, but that method is stronger than Hakkai, yet Resisting that doesn't mean resisting hakkai. Sirzechs Lucifer had another deal with power null, where he would be immune to normal forms of power null, but Mael's power null still worked, because it works by different mechanics. Look, my point is, the abilities are different in nature, they aren't even visibly the same. Saying "resist 1 form of power null = resist all" is like saying "resist 1 aplication of Reality Warping and you resist all". The ability is pretty wide and not all forms are the same. (Also IIRC Yhwach in canon lost cus of P Null no?)

Never said it's stronger. I ment it as in "better", because it's passive so it's already finished before Yhwach thinks of anything. And i don't see how precog will allow him to just B-Slap Nameless Glory's effects and overwrite it with his own. Again Yhwach's fate hax would need to overpower the already existing fate Nameless Glory is passively enforcing. So how are we sure either wins here? I think this may end up inconclusive (Nameless Glory stops any attempt via fate hax, but so does Yhwach and we have no way to determine which of them is stronger and which will therefore not be changed).
 
Firephoenixearl said:
Physical strength? Ugh, with that again i believe we've gone over this, which is why BlazBlue characters can be in 2-A even though they are 2-A "via hax only". We need to be consistent.
Concept Manipulating someone from "existence" to "non-existence" and boom. That character is now conceptually non existent, it's ofc not the only method to do that, there are others, but that method is stronger than Hakkai, yet Resisting that doesn't mean resisting hakkai. Sirzechs Lucifer had another deal with power null, where he would be immune to normal forms of power null, but Mael's power null still worked, because it works by different mechanics. Look, my point is, the abilities are different in nature, they aren't even visibly the same. Saying "resist 1 form of power null = resist all" is like saying "resist 1 aplication of Reality Warping and you resist all". The ability is pretty wide and not all forms are the same. (Also IIRC Yhwach in canon lost cus of P Null no?)

Never said it's stronger. I ment it as in "better", because it's passive so it's already finished before Yhwach thinks of anything. And i don't see how precog will allow him to just B-Slap Nameless Glory's effects and overwrite it with his own. Again Yhwach's fate hax would need to overpower the already existing fate Nameless Glory is passively enforcing. So how are we sure either wins here? I think this may end up inconclusive (Nameless Glory stops any attempt via fate hax, but so does Yhwach and we have no way to determine which of them is stronger and which will therefore not be changed).
Click to expand...
What are you talking about?

BlazBlue has 2-A characters, which all of the other characters' hax is scaled from, that's why they are on the Strongest List for 2-A, not because of the character who hax scales to them.

Here they are:


Conceptually manipulating someone from "existence" to "non-existence" is conceptual existence erase - but having resistance to conceptual manipulation does not generate that you will be able to resist conceptual existence erasure - Yhwach doesn't resist that for example. The concept of a person is the most fundamental part of said persons being - to delete someone conceptually still incudes deleting them physically, mentally, and spiritually - it just adds on conceptually as well.

Seriously, ask someone else this question and they will tell you what I am saying.


The reason why Yhwach lost was akin to three things:

1) Earlier in the arc, per Yhwach's own words, Uryu has an innate power that is superior to Yhwach's power. Leading us to realize Uryu somehow transcends Yhwach in a way.

2) The Anti-Thesis was theoretically stated by Jugram to possibly be a viable counter to The Almighty. Revealing that The Almighty most likely had no way to counter Uryu's ability at that moment because of what Uryu was swapping the states of, the Still Silver.

3)Still Silver, which is a substance that is a byproduct of Yhwach's power, straight up nullifies all of Yhwach's powers. It is a logical conclusion to assume Yhwach couldn't see the Still Silver in his vision as it is a power that comes from himself, and that it's negation properties for Yhwach is what allowed Yhwach to be affected by it in the first place.

So Uryu's nature, and his power to swap the states of things with the one item that could effect Yhwach, his own power, was the reason why Yhwach was killed. That doesn't affect this battle as it is extremely specific.


Yhwach's precog will allow him to see the endless futures of possibility, Yhwach compares it to grains of sand, specifically, it would see what future Nameless Glory picks for Amane to win. To Yhwach, someone "changing the future" is to see a person jump from one grain of sand to another. And from his perspective, all of the fate that he sees, he can control.


And you can't forget, all the powers that he sees, he knows, and all the powers that he knows, takes his side.

He will be able to gain a resistance to the ability via his Reactive Evolution, and then he will negate it.


So Yhwach wins by, having his Almighty already open in this form - so he is seeing the future - he sees and learns Amane's power - he becomes resistant to the ability, and then he nulls the ability, which allows his Reiatsu to crush the kid into particles.

And he has shown to be able to gain a resistance to an ability while already affected by it before.

I don't see why Amane's fate/probability hax will be any different.
 
Still power null, just a stronger one from a stronger individual. xD

Do not compare "ichigo moving from one grain to the other" to Nameless Glory. That is just showing that ichigo is choosing from the forking branches of fate. Nameless Glory forces a fate path for Yhwach himself. Yhwach can't just up and choose another future without overpowering Nameless Glory.

If you didn't get my point i mean: Nameless Glory is choosing/forcing a future/fate. Almighty is also choosing/forcing a future. The 2 are contradicting each-other. If they were same potency (i think) NG would take it since it could constantly overwrite Yhwach's changes. Otherwise:

- Almighty is stronger than NG therefore it can overwrite the fate NG forces

- NG is stronger than Almighty, therefore the fate it is forcing cannot be overwritten by the Almighty

I believe this is an inconclusive. An inconclusive stomp xD.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
Still power null, just a stronger one from a stronger individual. xD
Do not compare "ichigo moving from one grain to the other" to Nameless Glory. That is just showing that ichigo is choosing from the forking branches of fate. Nameless Glory forces a fate path for Yhwach himself. Yhwach can't just up and choose another future without overpowering Nameless Glory.

If you didn't get my point i mean: Nameless Glory is choosing/forcing a future/fate. Almighty is also choosing/forcing a future. The 2 are contradicting each-other. If they were same potency (i think) NG would take it since it could constantly overwrite Yhwach's changes. Otherwise:

- Almighty is stronger than NG therefore it can overwrite the fate NG forces

- NG is stronger than Almighty, therefore the fate it is forcing cannot be overwritten by the Almighty

I believe this is an inconclusive. An inconclusive stomp xD.
Click to expand...
It's a part of his own power, negating his powers by mixing with his blood, from a person who was stated to be immune to his power and theoretically had a power that could match him in a specifc scenario. It's not standard power null, it is very specific because it is the biggest Deus ex Machina in the HST.


And you seem to misunderstand, I am saying that Yhwach will be able to see what future Nameless Glory chooses for Amane. Not that Ichigo has fate manipulation or something.

Changing a future by actively trying to change something is just jumping from one grain of sand to another for Yhwach, choosing a future should be akin to that someone grabbing a specific grain of sand and jumping to it forcefully.

And out of the countless grains of sand, he would be able to see Nameless Glory grab a specific grain and jump to that one.

Yhwach's vision allows him to see all possibilities - he can see the future that Nameless Glory chooses.


And no, if two things are of the same potency, they clash against each other until one overwhelms the other - one doesn't just overwrite the other unless that one is, in fact, stronger.

The Nameless Glory isn't any stronger than the Almighty's Future Manipulation - it is just faster because it is passive.


I am not saying that Yhwach wins via changing the future - I am saying that Yhwach's future manipulation will counter-act Amane's - it like an even game of Tug-and-War.

The way Yhwach wins this fight is by him seeing the future, instantly knowing the powers of Nameless Glory, gaining to a resistance to the powers of Nameless Glory, and then nullifying the powers of Nameless Glory - which then let Yhwach's Reiatsu crush him into spiritual particles.
 
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