Alucard (Hellsing) major CRT

[Mariogoods]

I have seen that the 8-B feat is controversial.

First off, massive outlier, second off this is anime only and the manga explosion is 9-A:

Hellsing: Plane Explosion

vsbattles.fandom.com

The other part of this profiles seems fine and they should be left for knowleagable members to further evaluate.

 

[Random-Helper323]

The concern is honestly not whether Alucard ceased to be present after he faded. The concern is a very simple one for battle applicability. The purpose of adding non-existent physiology, with a specific push to say it extends to his soul, is to make it so that harming Alucard's soul requires the ability to interact with non-existent souls. Keeping in mind that soul manipulation stands as one of five or six hax that can actually harm him at all, most of the others being cheap stuff like plot hax, concept hax and higher dimensional stuff.

Leaving that stuff aside Alucard is essentially invulnerable unless his opponent can target his soul or break his mind. He also scales above True Vampire Seras' mental resistance, which crushed a mental attack that broke base Seras, who resisted a mental attack that mind haxed about thirty hardened soldiers. That is if Alucard still has that resistance post-Schrodinger, one of the many things we can't prove about that version of Alucard, since we never see him fight. That's the true concern here, the ability would be an enormous one for Alucard, essentially closing off one of the only two ways to fight him without being a complete smurf or tier 2 of higher. It's not a small ability addition.

With all that in mind, I don't think there's enough evidence to attach an ability designed to render him immune to most soul manipulation, especially when it does it by saying Schrodinger's soul doesn't exist, the same soul that was consumed via his blood, contradicting the idea that his soul was absent from his body and contradicting the idea that it is non-existent.

Edit: Schrodinger's soul being in his body even after he decapitated himself contradicts incorporeality as well, so I'm no longer convinced of that either.

 

[Rez]

Leaving that stuff aside Alucard is essentially invulnerable unless his opponent can target his soul or break his mind. He also scales above True Vampire Seras' mental resistance, which crushed a mental attack that broke base Seras, who resisted a mental attack that mind haxed about thirty hardened soldiers. That is if Alucard still has that resistance post-Schrodinger, one of the many things we can't prove about that version of Alucard, since we never see him fight. That's the true concern here, the ability would be an enormous one for Alucard, essentially closing off one of the only two ways to fight him without being a complete smurf or tier 2 of higher. It's not a small ability addition.

With all that in mind, I don't think there's enough evidence to attach an ability designed to render him immune to most soul manipulation, especially when it does it by saying Schrodinger's soul doesn't exist, the same soul that was consumed via his blood, contradicting the idea that his soul was absent from his body and contradicting the idea that it is non-existent.

Edit: Schrodinger's soul being in his body even after he decapitated himself contradicts incorporeality as well, so I'm no longer convinced of that either.

Again Schrodinger can choose to exist that's how his ability works.

 

[Rez]

This non existence talk is getting no where. We should just contact the staff and let them decide.

his vampire form always gets gutted before he goes for the kill, so it's unknown just how much he can resist

His vampire form can also take hits from Anderson. So it's more so Alucard just being Alucard. So unknown, likely the same as before justification for the Schrodinger key should work.

 

[Random-Helper323]

It still requires a fair bit of proof for his soul to be immune to soul manipulation unless the opponent has an ability to attack non-existent souls. I'm not against Alucard being even more of a wall than he already is, it's just that arguing his soul doesn't exist so he can be protected against soul manipulation when Schrodinger's soul was subjugated is highly questionable. And all based on statements that he can be anywhere or nowhere, which can be interpreted several different ways, from a character who was proven wrong on a statement about that exact same ability being the end of Alucard. The major believed that Schrodinger had destroyed Alucard using the very ability in question, and he was proven wrong about that very ability when Alucard returned afterwards. And that's on top of of the wording being open to interpretation.

I'm fine with saying Alucard briefly lost his existence, but no proof exists that it's combat applicable, there isn't proof that he can ever choose to be absent from the world, just that he can choose where he is and what state he's in. I'm not just being a naysayer, I'm approaching a power which is extremely vague with some caution. There's also the fact that Alucard didn't even have his entire physical existence erased, as some of his blood remained on a paver, and that blood starts running when he returns, demonstrating a connection.

Another issue is, the major makes large sweeping statements about Schrodinger. Three, in fact. He says he is everywhere, he says he is nowhere, and he says he has destroyed Alucard. Being everywhere was hyperbole, destroying Alucard turned out to be false, and being nowhere is open to interpretation, since technically a disembodied soul with no ability to manifest or interact or move within the world in any way can be argued to be nowhere, and in addition some of Alucard still existed in the form of blood on that paver. So one hyperbole, one verifiably false belief and one statement that is open to interpretation and kind of questionable with that blood. If Alucard is even more of a wall than I always thought he was, which was already the sort of wall that would have walled Dio til the sun came up, the sort of wall that could incon characters like DBZ Goku, then fine, that's actually a good thing, but show me evidence that isn't so uncertain.

 

[Rez]

It still requires a fair bit of proof for his soul to be immune to soul manipulation unless the opponent has an ability to attack non-existent souls. I'm not against Alucard being even more of a wall than he already is, it's just that arguing his soul doesn't exist so he can be protected against soul manipulation when Schrodinger's soul was subjugated is highly questionable. And all based on statements that he can be anywhere or nowhere, which can be interpreted several different ways, from a character who was proven wrong on a statement about that exact same ability being the end of Alucard. The major believed that Schrodinger had destroyed Alucard using the very ability in question, and he was proven wrong about that very ability when Alucard returned afterwards. And that's on top of of the wording being open to interpretation.

Again Schrodinger can choose whether he wants to exist or not. He is an state where his existence is defined by his perception of himself. The plan was for Schrodinger to be eaten by Alucard. When Alucard ate him Schrodinger was not non existent.

What's their for open interpretation
Schrodinger's ability to exist nowhere and everywhere (anywhere is more accurate). Is pretty cut clear it's based on the Schrodinger's paradox.
Hell Major even states his state existence is ambiguous and is only defined by his perception of it and that he exists in a world where the probability of existence itself is open to his interpretation.
And not to mention the fact that the Major compares Alucard's current state with imaginary numbers.

Yes Major was correct for a brief period of time he did win. He just didn't knew that Alucard could have killed his own souls. The one thing that made it impossible for him to recognise his own existence.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Why is it that we're going with the most literal possible interpretation of the "nowhere" part of the major's statements, while being forced to take the "everywhere" parts as meaning "anywhere", an entirely different word which in this case means something entirely different from the literal interpretation of "everywhere"? The two words are said in the same breath seperated only by the word "and", and yet we're trying to take one as meaning a different word entirely while taking the other as meaning a very literal and very specific application of that word.

Let's go through the major's statements. We'll proceed with the assumption that the words are literal and not hyperbole like the word used to describe literally the other half of Schrodinger's state.

Major said the following.

"he is nowhere"

I said above that in a sense you could argue a disembodied soul with no ability to manifest or interact with anything could be referred to as being nowhere. It has no body, and can't affect the world at all or appear even as a powerless observer. Where is it? In a sense I'd say it's nowhere, even by definition, since it isn't anywhere.

"imaginary numbers"

I guess it means imaginary information. First of all it seemingly refers to his ability to imagine himself and perceive himself how he wants to, unless we want to ask if it's someone else's imagination which doesn't make much sense, or we can treat the presence of an observing imagination as not being literal. Not a bad trick, that's where his low godly comes from. But what is he observing/imagining, and what with? Can he observe his own soul and decide if it exists, something which would be used to say mid-godly as it would require him to exist beyond that soul as some kind of higher concept or higher dimensional existence? Or does it extend only to his physical form while the observer is Alucard's disembodied soul? A disembodied soul still might be able to harm itself and kill the other souls attached to it or inside it, so the soul being non-existent is still hard to be sure of.

"(Schrodinger's) existence itself is equivocal"

The issue is, define existence, specifically the way the major intended it, keeping in mind that the major had already used hyperbole for the "everywhere" part. Wouldn't something that can literally imagine itself anywhere in the world and in whatever state of health it wants and then have that imagination become reality, all while its body will vanish if it can't recognise itself have an "equivocal" existence, open to interpretation? That already makes its existence in the world entirely open and subject to its own interpretation, which fits the major's words rather well, in fact, if its existence is entirely subject to its own interpretation that fits the description quite literally of an existence open to interpretation. As for his existence vanishing, does a dead thing that has no physical trace of it remaining still exist? By some definitions and belief systems no and by some yes. The term non-existence in regards to versus debating is intentionally more specific than the way most people use the word.

Look, I like the idea of Alucard being an unbreakable wall too. It's just that when abilities are given and taken by things like this, especially when the ability is such a huge deal for the character's performance, the statement being open to other interpretations and being in a description filled with other statements that are hyperbole or less than literal in any way is an issue. I guess I can get behind Schrodinger being able to render his body non-existent, in a non combat-applicable sense, and only in the sense that his body is like a projection, but extending it to his soul just seems unsubstantiated when souls are generally immaterial.

TL;DR: Schrodinger is stated to be everywhere and nowhere (the "everywhere" part is already treated as hyperbole due to anti-feats, so the major's statements are already less than 100% factual) and stated to have an existence that is open to interpretation. These statements are both covered by the fact that he can imagine himself in any location, and without any damage, and it will happen. Non-existent physiology could follow, but isn't certain.

He is also stated to be imaginary information, but this statement is only after being rendered unable to manifest, removing the "everywhere" part of the above statements. These statements do imply, at least somewhat, the erasure of his body, but don't really apply to his soul. Souls in Hellsing are never shown in any material form, nor is their nature ever described. We know his body disappeared, but his soul is never proven to have been erased, only disembodied. If his body was erased and his soul disembodied he would still be able to destroy his other souls that are attached to his own and the statements would still fit.

 

[Antvasima]

What our staff and former staff members have accepted above is probably fine to apply, but all statistics obviously need to be justified via accepted calculation blogs.

Also, you are not allowed to use Discord image-links in our wiki, and the header images are far too large and need to be properly resized and fitted into the page.

 

[Eficiente]

"Regeneration Negation" is wrong in Alucard's profile and even more wrong on how it's protrayed here. It's known by some that the use of those powers as one got very out of hand in the wiki, comparisons should not be made, only how its logic works on its own. At least Alucard's profile makes clear that this "nulls" "Vampire regeneration", but the proposal here doesn't bother. There is no Power Null going on here, their Regen has a weakness in which holy things makes it stop working, that's not a superpower to stop regenerations being applied. Any person reading the evidence used would conclude the same, what happened here is that users are too used to throwing around Regeneration Negation.

"Limited Regeneration Negation" should be removed and this weakness stated on everyone who has it. I just spotted this and wanted to say it, didn't pay attention to the rest.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out. That seems to make sense, yes.

 

[The_Pink_God]

"Regeneration Negation" is wrong in Alucard's profile and even more wrong on how it's protrayed here. It's known by some that the use of those powers as one got very out of hand in the wiki, comparisons should not be made, only how its logic works on its own. At least Alucard's profile makes clear that this "nulls" "Vampire regeneration", but the proposal here doesn't bother. There is no Power Null going on here, their Regen has a weakness in which holy things makes it stop working, that's not a superpower to stop regenerations being applied. Any person reading the evidence used would conclude the same, what happened here is that users are too used to throwing around Regeneration Negation.

"Limited Regeneration Negation" should be removed and this weakness stated on everyone who has it. I just spotted this and wanted to say it, didn't pay attention to the rest.

I will mention that he should have some degree of Regen Neg, as he once destroyed the arm of Alexander and he was just not able to regenerate it back, and mind you, Alexander already regenerated from a bullet in the head and several others in his body

 

[The_Pink_God]

BTW, someone should make Alucard flooding London calc so it could be added to the profile

 

[Random-Helper323]

I always got the impression that the Jackal worked by simply tearing larger holes than Anderson could heal. We see it partially blow his arm off and he can't heal the damage. I guess it's possible the gun has a negation ability, but we know what the Jackal's bullets are made of. Silver, mercury, explosive, and blessed by a priest. All except the mercury and the explosive was present in the gun Alucard shot Anderson in the face with. The main difference between the guns was power.

 

[Eficiente]

I will mention that he should have some degree of Regen Neg, as he once destroyed the arm of Alexander and he was just not able to regenerate it back, and mind you, Alexander already regenerated from a bullet in the head and several others in his body

2 simple issues with it. Regrow a destroyed arm isn't on the same level as what you say, even looking at Anderson's page and the Regen page makes that clear. It's pointed out that he took too much damage, so that could have very well wore down his Regen even if it was able to let him rip his arm and rerow it DBZ-style.

There is no small degree of Regen Neg here. If one cuts themselves in the Hellsing universe and throws holy water at it, they won't heal any slower.

 

[Random-Helper323]

2 simple issues with it. Regrow a destroyed arm isn't on the same level as what you say, even looking at Anderson's page and the Regen page makes that clear. It's pointed out that he took too much damage, so that could have very well wore down his Regen even if it was able to let him rip his arm and rerow it DBZ-style.

It is worth pointing out that Alucard didn't just shoot that arm, he shot Anderson multiple times with the Jackal. Anderson was able to regen brain damage at the start, but multiple deep wounds from the Jackal might be the cause of the arm not fixing. It's also possible his arm was too busted to fix itself.

I think the regen negation issue falls into a similar category to the mid godly regen and non-existent soul stuff. It's possible, but we aren't sure.

 

[Eficiente]

Well, the reasonable thing to say is clearly not to give him a higher level of Regen than what's proven.

I would really like to see what's up with the other claims going on here, but lack the time for it. Good attention should be given to it.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Well, the reasonable thing to say is clearly not to give him a higher level of Regen than what's proven.

Anderson's best regeneration showing is recovering from bullets in his head. Post-Schrodinger Alucard's is returning after being erased. The debate here is the question of whether his soul was erased as well, which is being used to argue non-existence for his soul. Since he already has low godly for returning from his body being erased, it's clear that saying his soul was also erased would lead to mid-godly as well. My concern is that souls are never shown in any way in Hellsing except as part of a vampire's body. So his soul could just as easily be disembodied but still in existence.

I would really like to see what's up with the other claims going on here, but lack the time for it. Good attention should be given to it.

That's fair. I wish Antvasima and you didn't have to be bothered with this. Thanks for your time.

 

[Antvasima]

So what has been accepted here so far and what is left to evaluate?

 

[Random-Helper323]

The things left to evaluate are:

Abstract Existence for Schrodinger

Non-Existent Physiology (body and soul) for Schrodinger

AP calcs are apparently still being questioned

If fully accepted, non-existent physiology will also pave the way for mid-godly regeneration, even if people aren't talking about it at the moment.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. If you or somebody else here write sufficiently indepth informative, but easy to understand, explanations, with all the relevant evidence linked to, I can ask for further staff help afterwards.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Okay. If you or somebody else here write sufficiently indepth informative, but easy to understand, explanations, with all the relevant evidence linked to, I can ask for further staff help afterwards.

The argument for Schrodinger's abilities are mostly statements. The only feats are that Alucard used it to return after being erased, and Schrodinger appearing in Zorin's mental attack on Seras to speak to Zorin.

The Major's statements describing Schrodinger, succinctly, are:


That he is "everywhere and nowhere"


That he exists in "a world where existence is equivocal/ambiguous"


When Alucard is erased he is referred to as being "imaginary numbers"


The other thing is that while in that state Alucard was able to destroy his own souls, possibly by damaging himself.

The above statements and event are being suggested to prove that Alucard's body and soul were in a state of non-existence after he was erased, which would result in Non-Existent Physiology for both his body and soul, and would lead to Mid-Godly regeneration.

It should be considered that the "everywhere" part of "everywhere and nowhere" is already accepted to be hyperbole, so the statements are already less than 100% fact, and souls are never shown to have a physical or earthly presence in Hellsing.

 

[Antvasima]

The argument for Schrodinger's abilities are mostly statements. The only feats are that Alucard used it to return after being erased, and Schrodinger appearing in Zorin's mental attack on Seras to speak to Zorin.

The Major's statements describing Schrodinger, succinctly, are:

That he is "everywhere and nowhere"


That he exists in "a world where existence is equivocal/ambiguous"


When Alucard is erased he is referred to as being "imaginary numbers"


The other thing is that while in that state Alucard was able to destroy his own souls, possibly by damaging himself.

The above statements and event are being suggested to prove that Alucard's body and soul were in a state of non-existence after he was erased, which would result in Non-Existent Physiology for both his body and soul, and would lead to Mid-Godly regeneration.

It should be considered that the "everywhere" part of "everywhere and nowhere" is already accepted to be hyperbole, so the statements are already less than 100% fact, and souls are never shown to have a physical or earthly presence in Hellsing.

Thank you.

@Confluctor @Eficiente @JustSomeWeirdo @Theglassman12 @Crabwhale @DarkGrath @Moritzva

Would any of you be willing to help evaluate this please?

 

[Random-Helper323]

Another thing to consider is that the idea of any state of non-existence being combat-applicable or even available for Alucard's use is predicated on the idea that Schrodinger can choose whether he exists or not, and it even implies he can specifically choose which parts of him exist. Schrodinger never displayed any ability to stop and/or start his own existence. He always existed somewhere throughout the series. He could choose where he was and if he was wounded or not, but never displayed an ability to choose not to exist and then exist again.

 

[The_Pink_God]

The things left to evaluate are:

Abstract Existence for Schrodinger

Non-Existent Physiology (body and soul) for Schrodinger

AP calcs are apparently still being questioned

If fully accepted, non-existent physiology will also pave the way for mid-godly regeneration, even if people aren't talking about it at the moment.

We also need a new calculation for Alucard flooding London

 

[Antvasima]

We also need a new calculation for Alucard flooding London

If you provide all of the available relevant visual evidence for the feat, I can ask a few calc group members for help afterwards.

 

[The_Pink_God]

If you provide all of the available relevant visual evidence for the feat, I can ask a few calc group members for help afterwards.

Here he's flooding London

And here's how many people he took the blood of to make said feat

 

[Antvasima]

Here he's flooding London

And here's how many people he took the blood of to make said feat

Thank you.

@Executor_N0 @Mr._Bambu @Therefir @DMUA @Wokistan @Migue79 @Aguywhodoesthings

Would any of you be willing to calculate this feat please?

 

[Moritzva]

Ooh, Hellsing, finally something I can comment on. Give me a second.

 

[Moritzva]

Goddamnit, it's an entire page. Alright, do we have anything written down for what is actually being changed and why, since I'm really bad with separating details and I don't see anything concise or listed on the thread.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Goddamnit, it's an entire page. Alright, do we have anything written down for what is actually being changed and why, since I'm really bad with separating details and I don't see anything concise or listed on the thread.

This thread was kind of a mess, so all I know about at this point is the issue of non-existent physiology and mid-godly regeneration, because that leapt out to me as questionable. There's also the abstract existence which is still in the sandbox despite being accepted as not true, and regeneration negation which is questionable as well.

 

[Crabwhale]

Hello.

Haven't read the entire thread but just popping in to say I read the entirety of Hellsing along with what few chapters of Hellsing: The Dawn we have a few months back and accumulated a truck load of scans. So if there's any specific queries I'm happy to help.

 

[Antvasima]

Here he's flooding London

And here's how many people he took the blood of to make said feat

@Jasonsith @Wokistan @Armorchompy @Psychomaster35 @CloverDragon03 @KLOL506 @Dark-Carioca @AbaddonTheDisappointment

Would any of you be willing to calculate this please? Tell us here if you accept.

 

[Antvasima]

Goddamnit, it's an entire page. Alright, do we have anything written down for what is actually being changed and why, since I'm really bad with separating details and I don't see anything concise or listed on the thread.

Hello.

Haven't read the entire thread but just popping in to say I read the entirety of Hellsing along with what few chapters of Hellsing: The Dawn we have a few months back and accumulated a truck load of scans. So if there's any specific queries I'm happy to help.

Thank you for helping out. It is appreciated.

@The_Pink_God and others here:

Are you willing to help out with this please?

 

[The_Pink_God]

Basically, the things that have are being discussed here
If the NEP and AE are viable to list
Someone needs to make a new calc for Alucard flooding London
Some problems with the 8-B calculations being worth it or not

That's all tbh

 

[Antvasima]

Basically, the things that have are being discussed here
If the NEP and AE are viable to list
Someone needs to make a new calc for Alucard flooding London
Some problems with the 8-B calculations being worth it or not

That's all tbh

Okay. Thank you for the reply.

@Moritzva @Crabwhale

 

[Jasonsith]

Well... are we calculating some KE in moving blood of 3424867 human beings that is? Assume we highball it and make it 100% averagE human mass of 62 kg each...

River flow goes up to 7 mph or 3.12928 m/s.

Speed of a River - The Physics Factbook

hypertextbook.com

KE = 0.5×(7×1,609.344÷3,600
×3.12928)×3,424,867×62 = 1,039,666,986.5435 J = 0.2484863735 ton TNT (small building level+)

 

[Rabbit2002]

I think you should list the type for Corruption

 

[The_Pink_God]

Well... are we calculating some KE in moving blood of 3424867 human beings that is? Assume we highball it and make it 100% averagE human mass of 62 kg each...

River flow goes up to 7 mph or 3.12928 m/s.

Speed of a River - The Physics Factbook

hypertextbook.com

KE = 0.5×(7×1,609.344÷3,600
×3.12928)×3,424,867×62 = 1,039,666,986.5435 J = 0.2484863735 ton TNT (small building level+)

It would be greatly helpful if you could turn that into a calc blog

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, agreed.

 

[Jasonsith]

Hellsing Death River feat redux

vsbattles.fandom.com

Drafted