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Altair vs Not Cu Chulainn

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Some of her clones are bloodlusted, so probably what she needs to do to win. Gae Bolg's curse is conceptual, so at the vary least they can damage her and prevent restoration.
 
What specifically can't she bypass? She can damage her, and the curse cannot be reverted, so assuming she just goes for Gae Bolg right off the bat, what makes her not be incapacitated? I know she does not start with plot manip, at least in her tier 7 form

High end 2-A. The Moon Cell will keep producing copies of her until her battle with Rani VIII is concluded, and her true body is stored deep with it.
 
Gae Bolg is causality manip akaif. Altair is a type 4 acausal, so she yeets causality. She also has Mid Godly regen, and a bunch of immortalities, plus passive causality manip that reflects any attack back to the opponent and also has plothax

Well, she cant kill all the Rins so its probably incon or Altair incaps
 
She is accausal but that doesn't really matter since the causality manip applies more so to the spear itself. The attack hits its mark which causes the spear to be thrust, and due to this, the attack cannot miss. Gae Bolg basically hard counters her causality manip, since the spear impaling her in the heart is what causes the attack, so she cannot reflect the effect of it like she normally could. Regen is conceptually negated by Gae Bolg, and the immortality wont matter all that much since she cannot restore the damage dealt by the curse. She doesn't begin with Plot hax in her tier 7 key which means if Rin can take her down in the first move then it wont matter.

What do u think she could use to incap rin?
 
Teleportation won't stop the curse, and unless she already know to avoid any close range conflict, she would have no reason to be so insistent on keeping distance. She never played like that in the show, or at least not in this key, since I cannot speak to the latter one. The cause of the attack is that she is stabbed in the heart, and effect is the thrust of the spear
 
Iapitus The Impaler said:
She is accausal but that doesn't really matter since the causality manip applies more so to the spear itself. The attack hits its mark which causes the spear to be thrust, and due to this, the attack cannot miss. Gae Bolg basically hard counters her causality manip, since the spear impaling her in the heart is what causes the attack, so she cannot reflect the effect of it like she normally could. Regen is conceptually negated by Gae Bolg, and the immortality wont matter all that much since she cannot restore the damage dealt by the curse. She doesn't begin with Plot hax in her tier 7 key which means if Rin can take her down in the first move then it wont matter.
What do u think she could use to incap rin?
Click to expand...
It does matter because: "Gáe Bolg possess a powerful curse which reverses causality, allowing Cu to always pierce his opponents heart with the Barbed Spear that Pierces with Death by reversing causality so the effect of the target's heart being pierced occurs before the cause of the attack."

And she also has passive powernull if Im not mistaken

Im gonna need feats of the spear negging Mid Godly and bypassing all those immortalities

She actually does use Plot hax...like a lot. Especially with Outline Origin
 
Do you wanna explain why it matters or are u just gonna give me a quote from the profile that I created, without explaining what that has to contradict what i said? The causal curse applies to the attack itself or the spear, so her accausality really doesn't change anything here. Her causality based attack reflection wont work either, since she reflects the effect of the attack, but her being stabbed is not the effect.

I would like scans of its passive effect since the only example listed on the profile is one she used actively.

Its conceptual, so the regen its negating being mid-godly does not matter. The spear prevents restoration, so where that restoration comes from is ultimately irrelevant unless you wanna explain why the means, not the potency, of the restoration matters. She can't kill Altair, but she can certainly maim her horribly, and although the type 8 won't let her die, she can certainly be gouged.

Not as an opener tho, and especially not against people she knows nothing about
 
Because its still causality manipulation. Sure, the attack is causal so I dont see how what so special about it, since its still...a causal attack

Its probably not passive tbf, but she can do it mid fight nonetheless, Im gonna watch the fight again just to be sure. She can also just erase the spear I guess

Nani? So Conceptual Manipulation (Type 3) can bypass Mid Godly by default? What kind of "harming her horribly" are we talking about?

It was the first thing she did against Selestia after the fire buff and the first thing she did against Hikayu
 
Because the causality manip in no way interacts with the causal system of the enemy, at least not really. Its Lancer's causal system that is being ****** with.

Erasing the spear doesn't really matter since she just generates a new one along with the numerous clones.

It's not type 3, since Nasu concepts dont fall into the usual categories but its semantic anyway. Yes, conceptual manipulation does bypass mid godly regen. One hit from the spear against a comparably durable enemy blew open a gaping hole in their chest, but Altair is far less durable than Rama is, so she would be turned to mush from the strike, and if it doesn't happen in one attack, then there are 20+ other Rin ready to take another shot

She already knew what they could do, and it wasn't their opener against people who she did not know
 
So what exactly does the spear do? If the spear must damage her body then it probably wont work

I mean, it must be one of the four concepts (except Type 1 since its for 1-As). But I'd guess its Type 3 or something similar to it. Clones are not really a problem because of Factor Mimic

I guess? Doesnt really change the fact that she either starts by erasing elements from the narrative or using Outline Origin
 
Weren't we discussing what the spear does this whole time? It attacks with a conceptual curse that negates restoration, and reverses causality to make it unavoidable.

No, it falls outside of the 4 usual types. Concepts in the nasuverse have aspects of each type but also have properties that excludes them from falling cleanly within any of them. I would say they are most similar to type 2, but they still don't completely work with that

Doesn't she like always start with her guns and swords? At least that seems to be the most consistent starter for her
 
Altair's opening move in her first fight onscreen was existence erasure on Selesia's Vogelchevalier. In her second fight against Selesia's in the real world she resorted to sword spamming rather than haxing her to death since she wanted to convince Selesia to join her side. In her third fight her opening move was transmutation on Selesia's sword and power mimicry + duplication on Rui's mech since she wanted to test how much power she could use in the real world. In the final fight she was trying to entertain the audience so she could power herself up which is why she decided to use her sword spam first against everybody and slowly start to use her hax. So if she isn't trying to get stronger via acceptance or convince somebody to join her she just uses whatever hax works best in the current situation from the start.
 
"Whatever she needs to do to win" is a very hard thing to prove, and what this actually means is that she starts with the erasure of her enemies weapons. That is the only case of her fighting outside of special circumstances, so that is our sample size we have to work with.

Due to this she might be able to erase the first few Rin's spears but since she has not been shown to spam erasure the second set gets in there
 
Oblivion Of The Endless said:
So what exactly does the spear do? If the spear must damage her body then it probably wont work
I mean, it must be one of the four concepts (except Type 1 since its for 1-As). But I'd guess its Type 3 or something similar to it. Clones are not really a problem because of Factor Mimic

I guess? Doesnt really change the fact that she either starts by erasing elements from the narrative or using Outline Origin
Click to expand...
Inb4 WoG confirms that Factor Mimic can copy anything, including plots, concepts, weapons, etc. [Ambigiously confirmed with 'maybe anything' ("ÕñÜÕêåÒü¬ÒéôÒüºÒééÒüºÒüÖ")].


Also if Gae Bolg reverses causality, so does Altair with 'The Vicissitudes of Fortune', which was stated as more powerful (also has less restrictions) than Magane's ability. She also survived after being conceptually EE'd by 66th movement, I cannot understand what's the case here.
 
Anyone voted yet? Cause about to vote for Altair with all those arguments. Close match but yeah Rin can't get through enough to prevent that.

FLEncore is still weakest Fate franchise, my poor Umu
 
Gae Bolg can't kill Berserker, explicitly because Berserker doesn't need his heart. Altair's gonna be ******* fine.
 
Promestein said:
Gae Bolg can't kill Berserker, explicitly because Berserker doesn't need his heart. Altair's gonna be ******* fine.
Click to expand...
Since when was this a thing? I'm assuming that is due more so to God Hand rather than actual physiology or anything like that, cuz Nasu has outright stated that a completely serious Cu could potentially win against Berserker
 
It's a statement from Nasu. Gae Bolg wouldn't kill something that wouldn't need its heart to live, and then he mentions Berserker as an example. Maybe it'd take off a life, but Berserker would just regenerate. Altair's Regenerationn is much better.

This is assuming Altair doesn't just revert Rin back to normal, reflect her attack, copy her, or break fate to avoid Gae Bolg.
 
Scan/link please. Gae Bolg may not kill them, but it would certainly maim the hell out of them and prevent restoration. God Hand is a bizarre case and isn't usual Regenerationn, and is also a 'borderline' conceptual armament in and of itself. I'm pretty sure no one is claiming that Gae Bolg could actually kill Altair, since even if it can stop her from healing, it cannot stop her type 8 from keeping her alive. That being said, it would turn her to mush from the AP alone, because as Rama showed, even if you can survive the curse the AP aspect still won't heal, so she will be turned to mush.

She would need to have access to the real rin to revert her, and she certainly ain't bypassing the moon cell. Attack reflection is reliant on reversing the effects of the attack, but since the effect is the thrust and the cause is the damage, her reflection won't work. Copying it is nice but she lacks the AP necesarry to use it without being torn apart, as Cu Alter shows. She also doesn't start with breaking fate to protect herself in this key, especially not without intel
 
"In order to evade Gae Bolg, one would require Noble Phantasms that automatically resurrected the target after death like that of Berserker's, or a high degree of Luck sufficient to negate the curse of the spear.
To put it into game terms, it would be an insane Noble Phantasm with a base damage plus an additional component that scaled with the target's HP.
For example, if Saber's HP was 100, then Gae Bolg's damage would be (Spear Damage + 100). She would absolutely be dead if it hit."

Fate materials say that the spear deals damage equal to opponents "HP" + spear's damage, which results in the target being dead no matter what.
 
Fate/Complete Material III: "While this is a technique employing Gáe Bolg as a melee attack, it is originally a magic spear for throwing. With a technique that reverses the meaning of "cause and effect" in the order of things, the "result" that "the heart of the opponent has been pierced" is created earlier than the moment it is thrust. Accordingly, the "cause" that "the lance has pierced through the heart" is generated from it later. Without a great deal of luck (like Artoria), it can be said that this is a technique that determines "if it is released, the opponent is dead." However, against Servants like Heracles who can move even when their heart is destroyed, there is a small disadvantage. Compared to the Spear of Striking Death Flight, both the range of effectiveness and the destructive power are weakened. However, it is worth mentioning that "the magical energy cost is low." For having such a strong effect as "almost certainly will destroy the enemy's heart," without the need of a terrible amount of magical power, it becomes an excellent Noble Phantasm of extraordinary usability."
 
Fate Side Material explains things differently than Complete Material and doesn't have that sentence. Which brings up the question why is Heracles able to survive something that kills you using certain mechanics simply by being able to move when his heart is destroyed. Seems contradictory.

Any context, explanation, actual feat of Heracles doing this?
 
I'm Blue daba dee daba die said:
It doesn't look like this debate proves she has it so no. You can't

She already has Type 3 and resistance to it. So I think that can stay
Click to expand...
I was talking about Holopsicon is being considered as having the same ability with the creators, which led their written fanfiction to become Universes [Even Multi-universes (By Meteora's statements about her storyworld having multiple timelines)] by its own laws&logic. I still wonder about why doesn't she have Type 2 concept manip yet :(
 
That doesn't seem like Type 2 and more of just good range and just immersion or another hax. Especially since this was basically immersing the fiction into reality, that would fall under Immersion I believe.
 
I'm Blue daba dee daba die said:
That doesn't seem like Type 2 and more of just good range and just immersion or another hax. Especially since this was basically immersing the fiction into reality, that would fall under Immersion I believe.
Click to expand...


You call that Altair's Universe/Story creation from zero as Immersion? Aight.
 
I'm Blue daba dee daba die said:
Immersion because she turned fiction into reality. Or it could just be ex nhillio creation
Click to expand...


You- no, not going to even mess with that. You call that Creators are just a bunch of people that can use Immersion and I cannot even talk against that, because it literally makes zero to no sense.
 
I'm Blue daba dee daba die said:
You can't even talk against that even though you said it makes no sense. All it was just turning a fanfiction into a reality, that isn't type 2 by a long shot
Click to expand...


Alright, alright. I'll try to be as clean as possible.


Creators, re-phrasing the 'Creators' part, can create storyworlds by mere thoughts, either by writing books (Magane came from a book, just like how Blitz Talker did), creating games with prior knowledge (Meteora was from a RPG game), or even basically designing a small series with a few drawings in it is enough to create a storyworld in that matter. Here's a fact:

For fictional characters, these 'storyworlds' are Universes. In fact, even 'Multi-Universes' since the 'storyworld' which Meteora is from had a few alternate timelines within the said 'storyworld', that works by 'different laws and logic' than how 'the realm of Creators' do, which were implied to be the real world.

You are trying to call this as 'Immersion' and yes, Altair does that. Altair, not Creators.

What I am trying to tell is that, 'Holopsicon' does possess the power of creators. Not just bringing them to 'the Realm of Creators', but also bringing their powers as how they work within their respective 'storyworlds' laws and logic into 'the Realm Of Creators'. That's not just some sort of Immersion, this is literally more than what you would call as one. Would you really call that as a mere 'Immersion' while the characters 'you bring up from fiction' can affect 'the world that's implied to be the real one and which sees everything (Even CM) as fiction' with their powers as a whole?


I mean, okay, I have nothing else to tell at this point.
 
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