Alovenas 1-A+ Downgrade

[Elizhaa]

From what I read so far, I agree on Agnaa's points. 1-A+ would just be 1-A.

 

[GLHF22]

I think you should read it again.

 

[Agnaa]

I expressed to Ultima my displeasure at the only evidence for infinite transcendences being a short "infinity^infinity" statement, and he's said that he now disagrees with 1-A+ too.

 

[GLHF22]

Not only that, they keep transcending even after that, and they reached the peak of it, the point where superiority and inferiority no longer relevant.

 

[GLHF22]

As i said, please read the explanation page first.

 

[Agnaa]

Having more transcendences after a single "infinite transcendences" statement, doesn't mean that there's multiple "infinite transcendences" statements.

 

[GLHF22]

It just says they keep transcending even after that and reach the point where inferiority and superiority no longer relevant.

Anyway i have a Class.

 

[Ionliosite]

I agree that it's clearly increasing infinitely, by multiple jumps in terms of 1-A in fact, but being increasingly closer to infinite will never lead you to infinity, since you can't just stack numbers and reach infinity that way. As Agnaa said, she's basically the Gods from Magi on a 1-A scale.

 

[GLHF22]

Unless she transcending to the higher infinities,

As i said she is indeed transcends Infinitely but not on a small scale like normal infinity.

See above, she keeps transcending even after reach the peak of infinity.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

All I am seeing from your scans is that she's above baseline and infinitely ascending above said baseline, with no more than a momentary, singular statement of infinite^infinite.

Said statement is also irrevocably incongruent with the statement right above it of infinity being like a one and she being like a 100, and continuing on like that endlessly.

Transcending simply means "being above of", and if you were a 2 while baseline 1-A is a 1, you are indeed transcendental above it, just as 2 is above 1. For her to be 1-A+, she'd need to be at the top of the infinite ladder, instead of ascending up the ladder.

 

[GLHF22]

Is not momentary or singular statement, in fact she said there is higher infinity before Ruphas modified her stats to infinite^infinite.

And yeah she also said that there is even more higher infinity than that.

The ladder we talking about here not the same ladder as others, in here even if you reached the top of infinite ladder there is even more higher ladder above you.

 

[Agnaa]

The ladder we talking about here not the same ladder as others, in here even if you reached the top of infinite ladder there is even more higher ladder above you.

I'm essentially saying that 1-A+ would only be having infinite ladders. And just modifying stats to infinite^infinite seems like too little evidence to interpret as infinite ladders, considering the high amount of evidence we tend to require for high tiers.

 

[GLHF22]

because they're not bound by any limitations, they can reach as high as they want, you can know that by look how they transcends each other, they literaly just said "im stronger".

And yeah its not limited to infinite^infinite they can arbitrarily increase the qualitative differences of each transcendence.

I mean is there anything wrong or is there any Doubt for infinite^infinite?

I already explain why infinite^infinite is infinite transcendence, is my explanation not qualify for 1-A+ ratings?

 

[GLHF22]

You ask me to prove how Alovenas is at the top of infinite hierarchy, and i give the explanations and scans.

What else i have to explain?

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Not really. You say she is at the top of the infinite ladder, when nothing similar has been posted by you. You mention infinite ladders that are each infinite, when nothing like that has been given by you.

The only thing you have mentioned that seems even remotely related to this is the "if your infinity is superior, you are a whole world above your opponent", which doesn't sound at all like you are at the top of the infinite ladder and your opponent is below. Rather, it sounds like you are both are ascending the infinite ladder, but who is ahead of who changes every second.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

She has transcends the infinite amount of infinite, in fact her transcendence always increasing like this :

Infinite^infinite, then that infinite just 1 of the higher infinite, and this higher infinite is just 1 of the more higher infinities and so on infinitely.

Is that so? This implies that the chain of "climbing infinities" only starts when Alovenas and Ruphas increase their stats to ∞, while I was originally fine with 1-A+ under the idea that:

1) Stats of 1 are equivalent to an infinite amount of power and already stands beyond any extensions of the hierarchy of universes which Alovenas describes.

2) Stats of "2" allow you to exist in an upper world above your opponent and tear their story apart as if it was paper.

3) Alovenas increased her own stats to ∞, and thus her power would correspond to being at the top of an endless 1-A hierarchy.

If this turns out to be an incorrect interpretation, then yeah, I disagree with 1-A+ as well.

 

[GLHF22]

1). Yes, infinite (∞) amount of stats already give you power beyond all extension of hierarchy of universes (i already said that 1 infinite is baseline).

2). If you get another infinite (∞) the difference is like a world above, not that you move to the higher plane of existence, since White room is the highest plane of existence (its literaly resides beyond all extension of hierarchy).

3). Alovenas increased her ∞ stats to ∞ , so infinite of infinity/infinite^infinite (if we go by more accurate translation), i don't know if she already at the top when she modified her stats to this, since there is another higher infinities and she is not stop there, but i wonder why this is not equivalent to 1-A+?

 

[Agnaa]

Bump.

 

[Antvasima]

What are the conclusions here?

 

[Elizhaa]

What are the conclusions here?

Overall, it is largely agree Alovenas's Outerversal+ rating will be removed.

 

[GLHF22]

Overall? We still in the middle of discussion.

 

[GLHF22]

1). Yes, infinite (∞) amount of stats already give you power beyond all extension of hierarchy of universes (i already said that 1 infinite is baseline).

2). If you get another infinite (∞) the difference is like a world above, not that you move to the higher plane of existence, since White room is the highest plane of existence (its literaly resides beyond all extension of hierarchy).

3). Alovenas increased her ∞ stats to ∞ , so infinite of infinity/infinite^infinite (if we go by more accurate translation), i don't know if she already at the top when she modified her stats to this, since there is another higher infinities and she is not stop there, but i wonder why this is not equivalent to 1-A+?

Atleast please explain to me why is this not equivalent to 1-A+?

 

[Agnaa]

Because, as you explained in points 1 and 2, simply having a stat of ∞ is just one layer. So the only thing implying infinite layers is how her stats are described as "infinity^infinity" while still being written as ∞.

With how much evidence we generally require for high tiers it seems weird to give 1-A+ when it hinges on a single part of one weird statement :L

But I don't know much about how much evidence is required for the high tiers, so it would be better for Ultima (or another tier 1 expert) to comment again.

 

[GLHF22]

So you cant get Tier 1-A+ if you only have 1 evidence? Even though the evidence is legit?

 

[Agnaa]

Maybe? Like I said, I don't know enough about how tier 1 works.

 

[GLHF22]

I mean i can list character with 1 evidence to get their Tier, but yeah we need ultima's help for this.

 

[Agnaa]

And I can list characters who don't have a higher tier because there was only one thing implying a higher tier.

Dude, seriously. Wait for Ultima and/or other 1-A experts to comment, please. Us going around in circles will accomplish nothing.

 

[GLHF22]

CMIIW, Hadou Gods got their Tier with simply transcendence to the singularity,

Yeah i know

 

[Agnaa]

From what experts have told me, there's multiple implications involved in the Hadou Gods' tier, scattered throughout the whole VN.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

2). If you get another infinite (∞) the difference is like a world above, not that you move to the higher plane of existence, since White room is the highest plane of existence (its literaly resides beyond all extension of hierarchy).

3). Alovenas increased her ∞ stats to ∞ , so infinite of infinity/infinite^infinite (if we go by more accurate translation), i don't know if she already at the top when she modified her stats to this, since there is another higher infinities and she is not stop there, but i wonder why this is not equivalent to 1-A+?

Because going by what you say, Alovenas increasing her stats to ∞ would literally just equate to a single level above baseline 1-A, while all other finite-numbered stats would be just her getting unquantifiably stronger while not actually increasing her power to something equivalent to higher layers on this scale. Her stats being increased to infinity ^ infinity would then be just two levels above baseline, and so on and so forth; so being generous here, she would just be a regular 1-A whose power is constantly rising to higher levels.

Although, I am curious by what exactly this excerpt even refers to when talking about "infinite^infinite". The text seems to be machine-translated, so it reads pretty bad as a result:

This is God's Territority so anything is possible. in an instant, Ruphas stats become "∞" and "∞" characters continues to be displayed at any level, Infinite^infinite, with this anything can be cleared up easily, even by merely existing, Ultimate Universe disappear like dust.

 

[Agnaa]

Oh ****, you're right about that Ultima. I should have remembered that infinity ^ infinity is only equal to the next highest infinity, rather than to an infinity infinitely many infinities away.

I knew something was weird about that statement...

 

[GLHF22]

I mean if we get rid of the word infinite, let's say you preceives outerversal character as fiction then you have 1 transcendence, cmon this verse don't follow complex math like cardinal numbers/aleph thing.

In here just simply "if you have more infinities, you a world/layers above em" and "higher infinities" is just preceives infinite as 1 in another infinities and so on.

The "settings" like "stats" exist there, if you have 100 stats then you are stronger than those who have 99 stats, of you have infinite stats then you are and outerversal character then if you "multiplied" it you transcends those who have "less infinite" than you.

Infinite^infinite word literaly what 2 Japanese in this Wiki said to me, when i gave them

þäíÚÖÉÒü«þäíÚÖÉõ╣ù = infinite of infinity

They literaly said "infinite^infinite is more accurate"

 

[GLHF22]

Its just like taikyou in Masadaverse,

You have 2 taikyou you are stronger than 1 taikyou

You have 2 infinity you are stronger than 1 infinity

 

[Maxnumb231]

equalizing other fictional works is not gonna strengthen your argument as it can be said the samething to other tier 1 verses when you're trying to make this faulty comparison. Compare to the evidence you posted (which is vaguely enough to be considered 1-A+) to other works is pale in comparison to those who have actually been upgraded.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Yes, but the issue is that you've provided no evidence that Alovenas increased her own power an infinite amount of times for her to even remotely qualify for 1-A+. Considering "∞" to be the the first layer above baseline 1-A in this case, then "infinity ^ infinity" would be the second, "infinity ^ infinity ^ infinity" the third, and so on and so forth, if her finite stats before that really are just unquantifiable increases in power and not equivalent to layers, that is.

Like I said, nothing in here indicates anything other than an 1-A who constantly increases in power to higher levels above baseline, much like SCP-3812, and that's being very generous, mind you.

 

[GLHF22]

I mean yeah any finite stats may only "stronger" than less stats but in here in the context literaly said "1 more infinite = a world above"

The difference of each infinite stats is not the same as any finite stats.

Its just like how any finite stats Will not be able to reach those who have infinite stats, those who only have 1 infinite stats cannot reach those who have 2 infinite stats and so on.

Thats why i make a comparison so that people can get the point easily.

 

[GLHF22]

I mean we literaly have no excerpt that said infinite^infinite = 1 transcendence, the excerpt only said 1 difference= 1 transcendence.

 

[GLHF22]

Can we get the conclusion today?

Im planning to stay away from this Wiki (or any debate forum) for a whole month since my graduation Exam are getting closer, i want to focus to IRL stuff.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Ah, I think I can see your point now. From what this scan says, after Alovenas and Ruphas increased their power to infinity, it continued rising by several factors while an infinite number of ∞ symbols kept being displayed until their power became equivalent to infinity ^ infinity (or infinity * infinity * infinity...)

This is God's Territority so anything is possible. in an instant, Ruphas stats become "∞" and "∞" characters continues to be displayed at any level, Infinite^infinite, with this anything can be cleared up easily, even by merely existing, Ultimate Universe disappear like dust.

And said multiplications are also explicitly stated to be the same added infinities which increase their power into being that of an "upper world" capable of tearing apart opponents that correspond to lower infinities as if they were paper:

Each attack power is infinite, Surpass your opponent's infinity with your infinity and transcends that. Big Bang, Big crunch, such weak attacks is completely meaningless, this skill doesnt need a name, but this power that has been refined as much as possible clash with each other. "I'm Stronger, i'm stronger than that, and more stronger." Ruphas keeps getting faster as the Speed itself continues to multipliy at the speed of light, and keep increasing indefinitely. However, Alovenas move at the speed that left it far behind but the next moment Ruphas did the same thing. If Ruphas has Incomprehensible power, Alovenas beats it with Multiplied Incomprehensible power, and Ruphas beats it again. If your infinity is one less than mine, then your opponents will stand in the world above. Use your opponent as stepping stone and create your strongest settings. Don't even think about how high you have reached in this fight

I could be fine with 1-A+ based on these conditions, but then again, the translation is really bad, so I may be getting something wrong here.

There's also how under the measuring stick used for 1-A (cardinal numbers), an exponentiation of two infinite numbers would just result in the succeeding number, as Agnaa says, so if we took that literally, Alovenas' stuff would indeed be just one level above baseline 1-A. Although the verse clearly doesn't follow this logic, so I am not sure if we should do that.

 

[Nepuko]

But wouldn't just be an ever-increasing 1-A instead of 1-A+? Since an infinitely increasing 1-B is still 1-B, and not High 1-B. But if you think 1-A+ is possible, alright then.