All Purpose Dragon Ball Thread

[Hiryu-Z]

Will SSJ Goku still be considered 50x his base form during Namek?

 

[Darkmon_cns]

How dose the wiki separate a "separate continity" from an adaption? All adaptions are a separate continuity unless something really weird happens like that one episode in avatar Last Airbender where they did a stage play you could describe that as an adoption within the same continuity but for normal stuff this Wiki deals with all adaptions are different continuities

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Will SSJ Goku still be considered 50x his base form during Namek?

Yes

 

[Hiryu-Z]

Yes

So his AP is gonna be 741.2333475 Quettatons, just short under baseline High 4-C

 

[Huesito88]

So his AP is gonna be 741.2333475 Quettatons, just short under baseline High 4-C

They'd be the next tier by upscaling chain

 

[Breadbear83]

So his AP is gonna be 741.2333475 Quettatons, just short under baseline High 4-C

By 1.03x upscaling everyone stronger than ssj1 namek Goku would be High 4C, thats acceptable in the wiki

 

[Gp972]

So his AP is gonna be 741.2333475 Quettatons, just short under baseline High 4-C

Are they going to remove the AP Multipliers too?

 

[Breadbear83]

Are they going to remove the AP Multipliers too?

All i saw was she CRT complaint about the billions of times multipliers in speed from a relativistic feat

But for AP feats we have back up feats, so for example characters could have some multipliers from Roshi blowing up the moon before reaching freeza destroying planet Vegeta or the statements of characters being planet busters.

 

[Gp972]

All i saw was she CRT complaint about the billions of times multipliers in speed from a relativistic feat

But for AP feats we have back up feats, so for example characters could have some multipliers from Roshi blowing up the moon before reaching freeza destroying planet Vegeta or the statements of characters being planet busters.

Oh, I mean the Freezer forms multipliers.

 

[Breadbear83]

Pretty sure it what hiryu assuming anything besides ssj1 gets rejected, which I don't think so

So base post zenkai Goku should still be 59 Quettatons

 

[Gp972]

Pretty sure it what hiryu assuming anything besides ssj1 gets rejected, which I don't think so

So base post zenkai Goku should still be 59 Quettatons

Actually, I have it at 118 because each form is double the last, so suppressed freezer is 118

 

[Gp972]

The downside is that if they accept the Roshi 5-C thread, I might not be able to apply the Goku Kaioken x10 backscaling anymore

 

[ALEPHGOAT]

The system your seemingly insisting they use to not be "self counterditory" is awful that would he a horrible website.

Prove that it would be.

Sometimes you have to get out of the ass of philosophy and actually do what works instead of what sounds good in isolation.

Yes, and what works is logic. Illogic never works because it refutes itself. That's why most powerscalers would get trashed to oblivion by someone who knows how to argue.

Not to mention that guy mentioned he intentionally manipulates his aurgment so the opponent would always appear wrong if they operated in good faith.... I genuinely believe doing stuff like that should be ban worthy.

Prove that he does.

The site isn't about making predictions. The core pages are assertions of powers or abilities based on shown characteristics. You're asking for a model of a character, when the site is more or less defining what we see of a character. Your core idea of what we are just doesn't match with what we actually do. Which is why you think we're contradicting ourselves when we aren't the majority of the time.

You're claiming the site just catalogs observations, not predictions. But that's not what VSBW actually does.

A page that says "Goku is 2-C" is not just listing feats. It's making a synthetic claim about his consistent capability across contexts. That claim predicts how he would perform in situations not shown. That's falsifiable.

If you truly only described observations, you'd have to list every contradiction equally: "Goku destroyed a planet in this scene, Goku struggled with a rock in that scene." You couldn't assign a single tier. You couldn't call anyone wrong. You couldn't debunk alternative interpretations.

But you do all of those things. So you're making predictions, whether you admit it or not. And predictions require falsifiability.

 

[AguilaR202]

I read enough shit complaints about VSbattles ratings give us your objective gauge of these characters or go home.

Also a completely valid prediction, Goku gets hungry during a match and forfeits, giving a much weaker character the win.

 

[Gp972]

Also a completely valid prediction, Goku gets hungry during a match and forfeits, giving a much weaker character the win.

That's oversimplifying Goku's character.

 

[ALEPHGOAT]

Do you know anyone who goes by the name HorySheet by any chance?

No.

 

[ALEPHGOAT]

I read enough shit complaints about VSbattles ratings give us your objective gauge of these characters or go home.

Dragon Ball is 3-A, GOW is 6-B to High 6-A, Marvel and DC are 3-A, all of them die to the Manifold Gods.

Also a completely valid prediction, Goku gets hungry during a match and forfeits, giving a much weaker character the win.

Infinitely more based than any Tier 2/1 slop.

 

[HenshinIntervention]

You're claiming the site just catalogs observations, not predictions. But that's not what VSBW actually does.

A page that says "Goku is 2-C" is not just listing feats. It's making a synthetic claim about his consistent capability across contexts. That claim predicts how he would perform in situations not shown. That's falsifiable.

If you truly only described observations, you'd have to list every contradiction equally: "Goku destroyed a planet in this scene, Goku struggled with a rock in that scene." You couldn't assign a single tier. You couldn't call anyone wrong. You couldn't debunk alternative interpretations.

But you do all of those things. So you're making predictions, whether you admit it or not. And predictions require falsifiability.

This is a less of a fault with this site and more just intrinsic to the hobby itself. Damn near every powerscaler assigns a "tier" to a character. It won't be a completely fullproof tier and it will always have exceptions, nuance and other things.

I think of it instead of just predicting things, it's moreso like a video game. I make a version of Goku I think is consistent or makes sense (with some evidence) and put him in matchups. It's not meant to be serious philosophy, it's for fun. It does become sad when people genuinely beef with each other over it, at the end of the day none of it is real and ultimately our ideas about characters are subjective.

There's also another caveat on standards and what you think is good evidence and what isn't. Some are more conservative than others.

 

[SomebodyData]

Also a completely valid prediction, Goku gets hungry during a match and forfeits, giving a much weaker character the win.

In theory only possible against a bio manip user, empath user, or time user.

Realistically, someone like Enrico Pucci maybe? Still don't think we're ever going to see that in a vs thread tho

 

[ALEPHGOAT]

This is a less of a fault with this site and more just intrinsic to the hobby itself.

Yeah. You're right on that.

Damn near every powerscaler assigns a "tier" to a character. It won't be a completely fullproof tier and it will always have exceptions, nuance and other things.

True. Even I can't assign a foolproof tier to Kratos. I've went through the 2 LainWest posts, the other Spanish language post (and its corresponding pseudo-CRT), the 2 english-language posts and I've come to the conclusion that Kratos is wanked on VS wiki and its rules to support Kratos are flawed on every level. To the point where I made an article on FIW using those documents as evidence.
Even then I will admit that the actual answer is 'Kratos isn't quantifable because his feats don't follow the laws of physics---the joules don't act like joules so they aren't.' Whichi is a sign that powerscaling is bullshit because the moment you have to add like 1000 bullshit rules to get a character to be quantifable is when you're not really doing LE RIGOROUS LOGICAL ANALYSIS anymore.

I think of it instead of just predicting things, it's moreso like a video game. I make a version of Goku I think is consistent or makes sense (with some evidence) and put him in matchups. It's not meant to be serious philosophy, it's for fun. It does become sad when people genuinely beef with each other over it, at the end of the day none of it is real and ultimately our ideas about characters are subjective.

If you admit it's entirely a game then the Tour De Force surprisingly doesn't target you. You do need to accept that this means you can make any character any level. My qualms with Kratos, Marvel, DC, are from people who think it's objective. What makes me angry in powerscaling is not other people disagreeing, but rather

• Poor standards of logical analysis
• Unironic 20 IQ arguments (muh fiction can be illogical!!!one1)
• Not understanding how words work
• Not understanding how math or philosophy work
• Doing everything in your power to avoid arguments from other sites

There's also another caveat on standards and what you think is good evidence and what isn't. Some are more conservative than others.

You could actually mostly agree on what is good evidence and not. There are few issues but the problem of 'what is evidence' is not a big deal. The bigger problem is 'quantification'.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Prove that it would be.

Yes, and what works is logic. Illogic never works because it refutes itself. That's why most powerscalers would get trashed to oblivion by someone who knows how to argue.

Prove that he does.

You're claiming the site just catalogs observations, not predictions. But that's not what VSBW actually does.

A page that says "Goku is 2-C" is not just listing feats. It's making a synthetic claim about his consistent capability across contexts. That claim predicts how he would perform in situations not shown. That's falsifiable.

If you truly only described observations, you'd have to list every contradiction equally: "Goku destroyed a planet in this scene, Goku struggled with a rock in that scene." You couldn't assign a single tier. You couldn't call anyone wrong. You couldn't debunk alternative interpretations.

But you do all of those things. So you're making predictions, whether you admit it or not. And predictions require falsifiability.

1 I don't see a reason to, if anything he'd need to prove it would be functional.
2 not what he was talking about.

3 prove it? Him saying it himself isn't proof to you?

Tbh you don't look like you have any intention of replying in good faith so I'm not replying again, if you hate the website and everything it dose go somewhere else you don't have to use it

 

[ALEPHGOAT]

1 I don't see a reason to, if anything he'd need to prove it would be functional.
2 not what he was talking about.

3 prove it? Him saying it himself isn't proof to you?

When did he say that

Tbh you don't look like you have any intention of replying in good faith so I'm not replying again, if you hate the website and everything it dose go somewhere else you don't have to use it

That's why I asked for a permanent ban. I deeply dislike everything about this wiki, including how toxic people get over powerscaling. I dislike the methodology, the tiering system, CRTs, and the like. I'll argue for as long as I can until the ban finally comes.

 

[HenshinIntervention]

That's why I asked for a permanent ban. I deeply dislike everything about this wiki, including how toxic people get over powerscaling. I dislike the methodology, the tiering system, CRTs, and the like. I'll argue for as long as I can until the ban finally comes.

You know you can just, privately request a ban right. Nobody asked you to suffer by being on here arguing with people.

 

[ALEPHGOAT]

You know you can just, privately request a ban right. Nobody asked you to suffer by being on here arguing with people.

This cross is mine to bear. (battle beast voice) I came here looking for challengers and I found only weaklings (battle beast voice). So now I leave.

 

[ProudLearner]

thats what happens to every verse

I have been here since 2018. Dragon Ball is the verse that changes standards to even more stricter.

 

[ALEPHGOAT]

I have been here since 2018. Dragon Ball is the verse that changes standards to even more stricter.

and you wonder why VS wiki is a laughing stock...seriously every place I've seen ******* hates VS wiki. Spacebattles. Fanverse. OneLastForum. Comicvine. Reddit. Youtube. Even Discord is like '**** VS wiki lol'.
I came here myself to see if the rumors were true, and well not all of it is true but enough of it is true to the point where I no longer feel like staying.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

4. 99% of powerscalers (The vast majority of VSBW is part of the 99%) would get washed by someone who actually knows how to argue and analyze evidence. I construct my arguments to such a tight degree that arguing against them requires you perform logical contradictions, which of course means that the opposite position of mine is automatically wrong without exception.
tl;dr CRTs are bullshit so who cares if you 'lose' one, it has nothing to do with the strength of the arguments presented.

Here literally says he constructs his aurgment so the other looks wrong no matter what, literally not debating in good faith as I said he mentioned it himself.


Edit: o wait this was you booboo why you out here denying something you said yourself?

 

[HenshinIntervention]

This cross is mine to bear. (battle beast voice) I came here looking for challengers and I found only weaklings (battle beast voice). So now I leave.

I get that you don't think powerscaling is a worthwhile endeavor, but there is no need to destroy yourself over it. You clearly dislike powerscaling as a hobby which is fine, the problem is that you need stop getting yourself into these spaces and arguing with people over it. Find another hobby that brings you happiness or fulfillment instead.

 

[ALEPHGOAT]

Here literally says ge constructs his aurgment so the other looks wrong no matter what,

Thought you were referring to someone else. Now I can answer.
To put it simply, constructing your arguments so arguing against them is a logical contradiction (Thus meaning no arguments against your position could ever possibly exist, meaning your position is right) is found in things like mathematics and here. The arguments of that level are just pointing out things like 'Infinity doubled doesn't get any bigger, infinity divided doesn't get any smaller' and 'Wittgenstein proved private language is logically incoherent' and 'If you can physically visit a place it's not abstract as per the definition of the term'.

literally not debating in good faith as I said he mentioned it himself.

I do debate in good faith.

I get that you don't think powerscaling is a worthwhile endeavor, but there is no need to destroy yourself over it. You clearly dislike powerscaling as a hobby which is fine, the problem is that you need stop getting yourself into these spaces and arguing with people over it. Find another hobby that brings you happiness or fulfillment instead.

I get viscerally angry at pseudoscience/pseudomath which is the big problem here. Goku is planet-level, I can understand. Goku is 50x infinity level, no, **** you, I WANT to respond. I also get angry that people don't extend the same scrutiny level to all works aside from their favorites. The hoops you have to go through to get Kratos to universe level essentially boil down to:

• ignore the authors telling you that's not how it works
• ignore how mathematics works
• ignore how abstractions work
• ignore the actual series itself
• ignore the idea of falsification
• ignore how argumentation works

Which can be abused to get any character to any level whatsoever. If powerscaling was a game of 'get every character to omniversal' I would be fine. Dealing with people who unironically think 'Godzilla Singular Point is High 1-B and Superman is High 1-A', NONE OF THOSE BEING TERMS WHICH MAKE LOGICAL SENSE BTW stresses me the **** out.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Thought you were referring to someone else. Now I can answer.
To put it simply, constructing your arguments so arguing against them is a logical contradiction (Thus meaning no arguments against your position could ever possibly exist, meaning your position is right) is found in things like mathematics and here. The arguments of that level are just pointing out things like 'Infinity doubled doesn't get any bigger, infinity divided doesn't get any smaller' and 'Wittgenstein proved private language is logically incoherent' and 'If you can physically visit a place it's not abstract as per the definition of the term'.

Guess what that position is mathematically wrong. There can be different kinds of infinity set theory shows this. The wiki uses this because it’s the only format that makes sense of fictional situations that very much shows one infinity being superior to another.

 

[SomebodyData]

and you wonder why VS wiki is a laughing stock...seriously every place I've seen ******* hates VS wiki. Spacebattles. Fanverse. OneLastForum. Comicvine. Reddit. Youtube. Even Discord is like '**** VS wiki lol'.
I came here myself to see if the rumors were true, and well not all of it is true but enough of it is true to the point where I no longer feel like staying.

Tbf, every place you mentioned also says the same thing about the others.

Yeah and this is why the CRT system is fundamentally awful.
1. VSBW banning off-site arguments is just a sign VSBW wants to keep an echochamber instead of actually arguing. If your position is good you shouldn't have issues defending it in any place, any where, with the right preperation.
2. Truth is not based on consensus, but on validity and soundness. The very idea of starting a new CRT disproves the idea that truth is based on consensus because starting a new CRT is saying that the consensus is wrong.
3. The CRT system is hilariously abusable by mods. See the DKD debunk being unable to be addressed by its supporter who just locks the downgrade CRTs.
4. 99% of powerscalers (The vast majority of VSBW is part of the 99%) would get washed by someone who actually knows how to argue and analyze evidence. I construct my arguments to such a tight degree that arguing against them requires you perform logical contradictions, which of course means that the opposite position of mine is automatically wrong without exception.
tl;dr CRTs are bullshit so who cares if you 'lose' one, it has nothing to do with the strength of the arguments presented.

1. Most off-site argument places don't appreciate when other sites use them, it is more of a matter of respecting their wishes.
2. You can make a CRT if you believe this to be the case.
3. It's true, but the way it operates know also allows users to voice their opinion. Since the wiki operates on a one profile for one character basis, the way CRTs work act as a balancing act between staff overreach and mob rule.
4. Might want to edit that, sounds like copypasta material ngl.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

I get viscerally angry at pseudoscience/pseudomath which is the big problem here. Goku is planet-level, I can understand. Goku is 50x infinity level, no, **** you, I WANT to respond. I also get angry that people don't extend the same scrutiny level to all works aside from their favorites. The hoops you have to go through to get Kratos to universe level essentially boil down to:

• ignore the authors telling you that's not how it works
• ignore how mathematics works
• ignore how abstractions work
• ignore the actual series itself
• ignore the idea of falsification
• ignore how argumentation works

Which can be abused to get any character to any level whatsoever. If powerscaling was a game of 'get every character to omniversal' I would be fine. Dealing with people who unironically think 'Godzilla Singular Point is High 1-B and Superman is High 1-A', NONE OF THOSE BEING TERMS WHICH MAKE LOGICAL SENSE BTW stresses me the **** out.

Any interactions of logical deduction is worth while as long as everyone agrees on the rules and the standards they are using. In this one infinites can be different relative to eachother as it is the best way to categorize factional settings that so such a thing. That set theory as a mathematical framework where such a thing is possible only helps. You don't like the rules that's fine

But that's not our problem. Please try to help yourself this is good for noone.

 

[ALEPHGOAT]

Guess what that position is mathematically wrong. There can be different kinds of infinity set theory shows this.

No.

The wiki uses this because it’s the only format that makes sense of fictional situations that very much shows one infinity being superior to another.

If the fiction makes a logical contradiction the fiction is wrong. Here, let me lay it out for you:

• The author says their character is a married bachelor: Author is wrong
• The author says their character is a square triangle: Author is wrong
• The author says their character is and isn't homosexual at the same time: Author is wrong
• The author says their character is a virgin that had sex in the past: Author is wrong
• The author says their character's power level is infinity x 50: Author is wrong

If you accept infinity x 50 to be coherent you must also abandon the idea of using contradictions to disprove anything, and also abandon the idea that you can reject the others.

Tbf, every place you mentioned also says the same thing about the other.

Every single powerscaling site shittalks all the others but VS wiki gets the most shit.

1. Most off-site argument places don't appreciate when other sites use them, it is more of a matter of respecting their wishes.

I don't see evidence for this.

2. You can make a CRT if you believe this to be the case.

CRTs are wrong in their core, so no. If your only way to argue against a position you disagree with is to make it go through a bureaucratic procedure it bodes poorly for your ability to debate. Arguments are arguments regardless of where they come from or who made them. By sealing itself off to foreign influences VS wiki basically makes itself too internal, too much of a circlejerk. I say the same about Spacebattles, but Comicvine and OLF are surprisingly much better with this. CRTs are a social mechanism not 'your argument is right or wrong' method. Also again I don't make CRTs because I would have to argue against everything VS wiki is in the process. Every single part of VS wiki would have to be in the CRT. And as linked before VS wiki just responds with the classic cope argument of 'muh fiction can be illogical' when significantly pushed (See Alovenus).

3. It's true, but the way it operates know also allows users to voice their opinion. Since the wiki operates on a one profile for one character basis, the way CRTs work act as a balancing act between staff overreach and mob rule.

Considering that the CRT system is abused by mods (see DKD), no, it's actually just a way for mods to abuse their power, nothing more

4. Might want to edit that, sounds like copypasta material ngl.

lol

Any interactions of logical deduction is worth while as long as everyone agrees on the rules and the standards they are using.

There's a universal basis (the laws of logic, argumentation, mathematics and philosophy) and the rest is commentary

In this one infinites can be different relative to eachother as it is the best way to categorize factional settings that so such a thing.

This is wrong.

That set theory as a mathematical framework where such a thing is possible only helps.

Set theory doesn't apply to physical measurement.

You don't like the rules that's fine

But that's not our problem. Please try to help yourself this is good for noone.

how about i just nuke myself with a 100 gigaton blast.

 

[M3X_2.0]

how about i just nuke myself with a 100 gigaton blast.

do that favour and stop being performative

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Were going to keep using relative infinity if you agree or not and it makes fine logical sense in the context we do so.

What was wrong about my statement that fiction shows some infifntes are greater then others so we use this basis and logic to compare them? That you disagree with the notion of doing that?

 

[Darkmon_cns]

do that favour and stop being performative

He already says he hates the wiki I just have the displeasure of him going off on a thread I'm following, surely there's bases by not to just ban him? He dosen't agree with the very foundation of the hubby and is basically just hear to tell us were wrong for doing this. That's frankly, a dick move

 

[ALEPHGOAT]

Were going to keep using relative infinity if you agree or not

Thankfully, truth is not dependent on:

• consensus
• tradition
• bureaucracy
• convincing

It is dependent on validity and soundness. Illogical positions are automatically wrong due to being logical contradictions bereft of meaning, and the same can be said of any argument, meaning no illogical argument can ever be valid (which precludes soundness therefore).

and it makes fine logical sense in the context we do so.

It does not.

What was wrong about my statement that fiction shows some infifntes are greater then others so we use this basis and logic to compare them? That you disagree with the notion of doing that?

refer to my points about married bachelor. if a fiction says 'this infinity is bigger than this other infinity' the fiction is incorrect because it said a logical contradiction, and it has no meaning.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Like you say a bureaucratic process it doesn't suit open debate


How else would a whole community of people possibly interact in a single prospective argument and then ratify that argument- to be revised later when new arguments and ideas are made? You're just against an active community contributing to the same profiles at all

 

[Darkmon_cns]

refer to my points about married bachelor. if a fiction says 'this infinity is bigger than this other infinity' the fiction is incorrect because it said a logical contradiction, and it has no meaning.

I disagree fiction is in no way beholden to logic if the author says that is a married Bachelor perhaps he lives on the planet will Bachelor means a person who bats well and married means a person who has a burned bat.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Huh, he just got nuked, self request.