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Kiai is a quick ki blast that pressure the air to create shockwave, it is still Ki-based attacks, and Ki scales to physical, if Tien has enough ki to creates a strong enough pressure to deflect the Kamehameha, he scales
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All Purpose Dragon Ball Thread
- Thread starter Warren_Valion
- Start date
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High 8C Roshi can multiply his power to moon level with a Kamehameha. We need to apply this shittillion times boost to the rest of the series because surely there is no way that's wrong
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huh, i mean, then it either needs to have some Attack Reflection hax, cuz it would be scaling Tien to a charged attack of someone physically comparable to him,
BP are not linear as discusses many times over the years........so an increase of 2.2x of them isn't really just a 2.2x increase, heck, Roshi here is accepted to go from tier 8 to tier 5 with his Kamehameha, so it definitely isn't capped at only 2.2x times increase
yeah, and the entire thing in the tournament for the statement is Krillin talking about a hypotetical "Super Kamehameha" Goku might have, so definitely not a normal one, the Max Power Kamehameha is extremely superior to the users physicals, and yet Roshi still says that no kamehameha could ever work
the statement even says it doesn't have anything to do with power, so to apply power to this foes against what the statement said
and yet Goku is still comparable to him physically when he supposedly scales to something that can be far stronger than himself? regardless of how powerful he makes the kamehameha to the point of it actually being far stronger than himself?
like......the statement even says that power has nothing to do with it at all, so it is weird to even consider it being power based to begin with
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Even in Piccolo Jr.’s case he’s getting folded by Goku, but he tanks a super kamehameha from him. So, no it doesn’t really contradict anything, energy attacks are shown to COMPARABLE to the users in many instances.
I don’t really agree with the kamehameha being some 1000x+ boost in power with the Roshi case, but I’ll take down that part of my point since it’s not too important.
Regarding the super kamehameha part, yeah even if they’re talking about a super kamehameha it just means that it’s comparable to the user, like how we see in Piccolo Jr’s case. I’m pretty sure that we just don’t treat it as a default, but if they’re feats in that instance that show that it’s comparable we treat it as so.
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Scaling any energy attack to punches and kicks kind makes the energy attacks.. pointless? If there the same power what's the point of it just punch him
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Piccolo's feat is one thing......not sure how it falls back here, but against Major Metallitron, who was near impervious to Goku's attacks, he was able to one shot him with a Kamehameha, Roshi blow up a montain with his Kamehameha in a point where the series is consistently in tier 8 territories, etc, you having 1 example doesn't suddently make it consistent, specially when Raditz, who was stomping both Goku and Piccolo, saw the need to dodge and was concerned by Goku's kamehameha, noting how more powerful it was then what Goku was dishing out prior, Piccolo's scene is the inconsistency here more than anything
i mean, what you should be addressing is how Roshi says that power doesn't matter for Tien, if it is a Kamehameha, he will be able to deflect it, Roshi's words, not mine......idk why you are ignoring that part tbh
also as a note, Base Goku was comparable to Roshi during that fight, yet when he threatened to use his Kamehameha against a 10x stronger Oozaru Goku, chars were scared he was going to kill Goku, which wouldn't make much sense if Roshi's Kamehameha was comparable to his physicals all the time
considering that even a normal kamehameha is.......much superior to one's regular attacks, i am fairly certain a Super one, not the one he used against Piccolo, just a generic "super" kamehameha, aka, just a "super strong one", so even including the ones far above Goku's physicals, a "hypothetical very strong one" if you will
by your logic, if Tien was able to so effortlessly deflect Goku's Kamehameha, which is superior to his physicals and normal power no matter what since it is a charged attack, so effortlesly that even trying would be useless as said by the chars there......why would Goku's physicals do him any favor? like, by your logic they would be comparable, so couldn't Tien just......easily tank/deal with Goku's physicals as he can as well easily deal with his Kamehameha(comparable to Goku's physicals by your logic) with(also by your logic) simply his own AP? then, why couldn't he just use a simply Kiai or Physical blow to overpower Goku as easily as he could overpower a Kamehameha?
this is also not taking into account how Roshi straight up says that power/strength isn't a factor for why Tien can do this at all
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Hate to barge into the thread but I have a question about Death Battle. Across the various Death Battle episodes that feature Dragon Ball charecters do you feel the series is well represented from both a research and character portrayal perspective and if not why?
That's all thanks for the time.
That's all thanks for the time.
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Sometimes; first and second superman fight and vegeta vs shadow are aaaaaaaa
Everything after that is mostly ok
Broly really should a lost to hulk tho, even if broly has some distinct advantages.
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Broly and Goku are probably the best in terms of stats and portrayal. Frieza too
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Silly arguement. Range and aoe. Not saying ki blasts aren't more powerful than physicals, but if physicals are so much weaker than they wouldn't be the bread and butter of dragon ball characters fighting.
If kiai are really these super quick attacks that scale so much higher than physicals, why bother with melee combat at all?
I don't care about Tien scaling physically to the Kamehameha or whatever, OG DB scaling has been defiled by this ki blasts are actually quadrillion times stronger than punching shit, but if we set a precedent with this, we should at least be consistent
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Nullflowerblush
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Roshi's MAX Power is an unquantifiable degree far higher than his normal level of power.
Ki potency is amplified when concentrated, but a Kiai is a low-density energy dispersion throughout the entire body, foregoing concentration. A Dodon Ray, or a Kamehameha, or a Tri-Beam of Tien's scale above his physical characteristics, yes, but a Kiai is, for all intents and purposes, his raw energy output.
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So either the max power form is broken or the Kamehameha is broken, kinda doesn't matter
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Am i tripping balls? Didn't naurto use to be 2-C on the wiki?
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Naruto Storm characters were for about a month
was a goon interpretation of an argument tho so it was quickly taken out.
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Wasn't there like a butzu that created a new universe or something in boroto?
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Nullflowerblush
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Roshi has described himself as once being the "strongest in the world".
The gap between MAX Power Roshi and the main cast up until the Tien Shinhan Saga very well could be literally astronomical; he only ever fights with his full power during the modern era (i.e., Resurrection 'F' and Super), and Toriyama himself describes Roshi as naturally possessing enormous strength he hides out of lack of trying.
The gap between MAX Power Roshi and the main cast up until the Tien Shinhan Saga very well could be literally astronomical; he only ever fights with his full power during the modern era (i.e., Resurrection 'F' and Super), and Toriyama himself describes Roshi as naturally possessing enormous strength he hides out of lack of trying.
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Unreal bulking btw, Roshi gotta be just slamming back those Double Quarter pounders
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Or stop trying to make it more complicated by finding inconsistent loopholes for a clear feat and scaling chains.
I know we're not consistent, we're only consistent when it's convenient to being overly conservative.
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.....why, ask about Naruto in a Dragon Ball thread without context?
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The pursuit of knowledge has no one road ahh question
StarShooter80
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ahh question
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Krillin should've learned the max power Roshi form, so he could've killed Cell Max
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"Check out my new transformation!"
"I-impossible! How could he-"
"Hmmph. Just like me and Gohan."
"AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH-"
Turns into Roshi
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no, but they have some lore that might imply universal range with certain hax, it's not a clear-cut statement tho.
although with how things are progressing if the range thing ends up being true, I wouldn't be surprised if that character had comparable AP down the line.
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I believe Obito's eyes are stated to have created the Kamui Dimension in a databook? And Kaguya does the same thing multiple times. Wouldn't scale to anything tho.
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Dragon Ball if it was good
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Roshi destroying a mountain prior in the same form, but in the next appearance destroying the moon isn’t an inconsistency. It’s just a matter of what he was intending to do with the attack. Also, I’m mentioning that energy attacks can be comparable to the user themself. I made sure to emphasize the comparable part, I didn’t say equal in strength. However, regarding the Piccolo Jr. thing that was already accepted as a valid feat and we accept that energy attacks are comparable to the users unless charged. In the instance of charged attacks like kamehameha, we just need showings of them being comparable in that moment, which the Piccolo Jr. tanking Goku’s kamehameha fulfilled.
I’m not necessarily ignoring that part where he says no matter how strong the kamehameha is, because that statement would be the precedent for that time. I wouldn’t assume that OG DB Tien could deflect a kamehameha from SSJ3 Goku in the Buu saga or something. The most important part is the method of how he does this which is a kiai attack. The fact that it’s a kiai attack means that this is power-based.
Also, yeah they were worried about if it would kill Goku. But there’s also a guide that states that Roshi could only stop Goku by destroying the moon. So
I mean the kamehameha would still be comparable to Goku, so Tien being comparable to a normal Goku and Goku’s kamehameha isn’t that big of an issue. It’s like fighting on even terms with someone and they put more effort into an attack and still being fine. That’s not really an issue.
It probably could simply deal with anything at the time, and it’s still something done with kiai, which means it has to ki-based. A kiai is merely just energy-output that you don’t even need ki mastery/control to utilize.
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There wasn't a naurto thread and I figured naurto is basically Goku's child (as all the big 3 are) anyway and it seems noone saw a problem with it so my judgment was right
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.....yes there is
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?????? When have i said it was?
yeah, and in the case of the hypotetical said by Krilin in the scene, it was definitely a charged one into consideration, the Piccolo junior one is a valid feat.......but that doesn't really change the point, they CAN be strong enough to not be comparable to the user's physicals, and even that possible far greater strenght is said by Roshi to not matter for Tien
........again, why are you moving the goalpost to be a discussion about the Piccolo Jr feat being valid or not? I never questioned that
I mean, even by the precedent of that saga and timeframe, Goku could absolutely do a Kamehameha that could one shot himself/far, far superior to his physicals(said physical's that Tien is comparable/equal to) making the problem still happen regardless
And yet Roshi says power isn't a factor at all in what Tien is doing? How come? As i said above, that would include a kamehameha far superior to Tien's power/one that is a one shot gap, that Goku has shown before in the series at this point, as well as Roshi
Point is, they acnownledge that it is far stronger than his physical powerAlso, yeah they were worried about if it would kill Goku. But there’s also a guide that states that Roshi could only stop Goku by destroying the moon. So
Also......can't this be used for Moon level Oozaru Goku? I feel like it could
Not nescesaraly, as you said yourself above, Goku can charge a kamehameha far steonger than himself, has done prior and after this time as well, so you can't say a special "super" kamehameha that is hypotezised by Krillin, in the context of it being a really powerful attack, would still be comparable to Goku in anyway, specially since that would make the hypotetical make no sense, as Krilin would have no reason an attack supposedly not too above Goku's physical power, that Tien is equal to, would make a difference
Exept in this case said attack has much precedence for one shotting your own level of power and scare people who were stomping you beforehand, and yet the one you are using it on is equal to you in power, but you are saying they have power enough to easily deflect an attack far superior to the one they are equal to? That becomes circular real fast
You certainly need ki mastery to utilize given that we only give Kiai to "advanced" ki users
But also.......this is ignoring the point don't you think? I know what a kiai is......that is the entire point of the problem and circular scalling the statement would give id interpret in the way you are saying to interpret
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Would downscaling be allowed?
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Mmmm, maybe? Depends on how above Max Power Roshi Oozaru Goku is
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You talked about how Roshi destroying a mountain, in an earlier saga, but then destroying a moon was inconsistent that’s what I was replying to.
By comparable, I just mean that it’s close in power. Like if someone can produce 1000 joules of force and another person can produce 950 joules of force, that’s comparable.
I didn’t move the goalpost? It seemed like you were questioning the validity of the Piccolo Jr. feat so I wanted to substantiate it.
Goku’s kamehameha being stronger than his physicals doesn’t mean that it’s not comparable.
Roshi most likely is just hyping up the fact that any kamehameha within that point in time wouldn’t work on Tien. Since if we take in all the context, he’s literally doing this via using kiai.
I mean sure, but it’s also just a larger attack in general so they’d be worried about that attack landing on Goku. Also, maybe it could be used for Oozaru-Ku, but I’m not gonna be the one making the thread.
My point has consistently been that Goku can make a kamehameha stronger than himself, but that attack is still comparable to him so it’s not like many times stronger than himself, but still comparable to himself. For example, when looking at Piccolo Jr. tank his kamehameha.
Actually, no. I don’t believe there’s any precedent for the kamehameha in OG dragon ball to magically one-shot people. I could see your point if you’re talking about like SSJ Goku blowing up the top-half of Cell, but in OG DB, nah.
Also, yes it’s literally stated you don’t need to have energy control to utilize kiai in the statement. “Therefore, it can be used even if you can’t control your energy.” If you think it’s circular or an inconsistency, I would focus on arguing that, but arguing that kiai isn’t energy-based or has nothing to do with power is blatantly a lie. However, I do disagree that it’s inconsistent since it’s literally the same thing as Piccolo Jr. tanking a kamehameha in my eyes. Energy attacks are just comparable to the users like in that case.
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What?
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Roshi’s just got that power. Anything Roshi doesn’t work on Roshi.
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Fixed.
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No i didn't? Legit no idea what you are even talking about, i was saying that the Kamehameha being always comparable to the user's physicals is inconsistency compared to it being able to be far above, and even an one shot, in comparison to the user's physicals
And i am saying that not every kamehameha is comparable, users can make ones that are simply so vastly superior to their physical strenght that they are an one shot difference
....legit can't see how you could come to this conclusion since it didn't had anything to do with what was being discussed.....i legit never questioned the feat
It does actually, his strongest ones can make people who were stomping him scared and one shot those who were unharmed by any of his physical attacks(gave the examples earlier in the other post) so yeah, depending on the Kamehameha, it does make it non comparable to his physicals
what makes that the "most likely" answer to what is happening on screen instead of Kiai or Tien himself having Attack deflection? Krilling cites a hypotetical stronger kamehameha that didn't happened in the series even, so that's unlikely
also.....you said yourself that Goku's physicals would be comparable, if somewhat weaker. So why did Goku's physical attacks any good if his kamehameha's were useless by what Roshi said? Shouldn't Tien have an even easier time dealing with those?
which either means Kiai has attack reflection or Tien is vastly superior to Goku as even his strongest "i can one shot those physically superior to me" kamehameha's wouldn't work on him.....no idea why the first option is so off the tabble here
huh, i will make a mental note of that for later then
And mine is that this is not always the case, his strongest Kamehamehas can one shot those comarable and scared the ones who were stomping him, that point you didn't address at all
Explain Goku's fight against General Metalitron and Goku drilling a hole in a wall he couldn't even dent before then, also.....the Kamehameha is the same technique in Z as in OG DB........what's the difference? Specially since it is the literal same series
You said "mastery" which.....one clearly needs if even Roshi with his years of training is surprised by Tien being able to use it to repel his energy wave, also......the Ki page has it at "Advanced" level.......so who did the goof here?
I did focus on that, yeah
........? Again, never said that, i said the Roshi's statement notes how what Tien is doing has nothing to do with power, which is pretty blatant
Again, Piccolo Jr is 1 instance, i brought up like, 4, how can it alone prove consistence if it is in the minority here?
Then explain......literally all examples i gave
Nullflowerblush
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No???????????????????????????????????
"stop Goku", as in neutralize Goku non-fatally. The story makes very clear if Goku was hit head-on by the Kamehameha, he would have been killed.
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