Alien X vs Asriel Dreemurr. Round 2

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Ricsi-viragosi, It seems to me that what you propose is that it is impossible for Asriel to lose a fight against anybody that doesn't go for the "save" option and that seems a bit disingenuous to me

What?

No, it isn't impossible at all.

Plain mind manipulation would wreck him (and with his lack of resistance, even some way lesser Ben 10 characters could achieve victory through that method), as would a lot of other things. Pretty much any branch of mind manip, from pain to empathic, would cause him to lose pretty badly.

There are plenty ways to beat he, but manipulating his DT is the single worse possible way to go about it.

 

[Greenshifter]

@Ricsi Servantis' statement when Ben was 11: with a Celestialsapien form, Ben could one day wipe everything out of existence.

 

[FRIMI]

its just that it seems like you're making DETERMINATION essentially boundless in capabilities even though theres really nothing to back that up. The wiki itself doesn't even say so anywhere. I see no reason why rewinding Asriel to a state at which he didn't have enough DT to LOAD a save file wouldn't work

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

That, too, doesn't tell me much.

And, are those all you have for Existence Erasure..?

Because erasing everything from existence is, like, the prerequisite for tier 2. Asriel up and erased everything in his timeline, and Chara erased everything period. Tier 2 destruction does count as erasing stuff from existence technically, (they never existed, don't exist and never will) it certainly doesn't apply to other tier 2s that were fine with their universe being destroyed.

 

[Greenshifter]

Heck I stated from the beginning Alien X would go for mindhax since most recent version = Ben in control = most safe option that he knows for certain he has = mind hax. If that doesn't work then Bellicus and Serena can suggest EE. That said, it's out of character for Ben to incap Asriel for 24 hours by continuously mindhaxing him and letting Asriel kill himself wouldn't do anything because of save and load I think, unless Asriel is strong enough to erase himself?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

its just that it seems like you're making DETERMINATION essentially boundless in capabilities even though theres really nothing to back that up. The wiki itself doesn't even say so anywhere. I see no reason why rewinding Asriel to a state at which he didn't have enough DT to LOAD a save file wouldn't work

No, No I'm not.

Boundless is waaaay above anything I claimed for DT. DT was shown to just disregard the destruction of all existence with no problem. If the best erasure has for backing it up is 3D people claiming a tier 2 can make them stop being that is really weak sauce and nothing new for tier twos.

 

[Badrimoine2019]

Well so everything is clear alien x would win due to EE, info manipulation, mind hax, begin omniscient, maybe even time manipulation, begin imminue to mind and soul hax. So yeah I don't see how asriel would win

 

[Greenshifter]

@Ricsi yeah Paradox + Kevin + Servantis is all we have for EE but erasing everything from existence is pretty clear cut no? I mean in Ben 10 they say destroy when they actually mean erase but I don't think they'll say erase when they mean destroy.

 

[FRIMI]

ricsi, for the purpose of the fight, he has EE. that's just how it works.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Heck I stated from the beginning Alien X would go for mindhax since most recent version = Ben in control = most safe option that he knows for certain he has = mind hax. If that doesn't work then Bellicus and Serena can suggest EE. That said, it's out of character for Ben to incap Asriel for 24 hours by continuously mindhaxing him and letting Asriel kill himself wouldn't do anything because of save and load I think, unless Asriel is strong enough to erase himself?

If he got mindhaxed, then his DT would stop working. He needs to be determined for Determination.

 

[FRIMI]

greenshifter considering nigh-omniscience, if incap is the only way that ben can reasonably win, it would be fine for him to do it. Of course if there's a better way, then he'd do that

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

greenshifter considering nigh-omniscience, if incap is the only way that ben can reasonably win, it would be fine for him to do it. Of course if there's a better way, then he'd do that

Does his basic nigh-omniscience actively analyze stuff from outside of his reality?

If not, he won't know a thing about him.

 

[FRIMI]

Heck I stated from the beginning Alien X would go for mindhax since most recent version = Ben in control = most safe option that he knows for certain he has = mind hax. If that doesn't work then Bellicus and Serena can suggest EE. That said, it's out of character for Ben to incap Asriel for 24 hours by continuously mindhaxing him and letting Asriel kill himself wouldn't do anything because of save and load I think, unless Asriel is strong enough to erase himself?

If he got mindhaxed, then his DT would stop working. He needs to be determined for Determination.

If that's the case, then gg its over in a flash. Just mind hax then kill Asriel once and the battle's done. His AP scales to Asriel's dura, so I'm sure he could just kill a stationary punching bag without even needing to do anything super hax-y

 

[Greenshifter]

Also Servantis is an extraordinary genius so if he says erase then he means erase. Also backed up by his subordinates (at least the smarter one) saying that Ben will be destroyed when talking about sub-quantum level destruction instead of saying erased: 16:00

 

[Greenshifter]

@Frimi Alien X is a fodder 2-B... there are only hundreds of timelines in Ben 10 in 2012 (which should exponentially increase from that point forward). How many times do I need to ask this, who has the AP?

But yeah this all doesn't matter because of mind hax gg

 

[Badrimoine2019]

@Frimi Alien X is a fodder 2-B... there are only hundreds of timelines in Ben 10 in 2012 (which should exponentially increase from that point forward). How many times do I need to ask this, who has the AP?

But yeah this all doesn't matter because of mind hax gg

soooo alien x win this fight?

 

[Greenshifter]

@Bad I guess, if Asriel has wincons, I think erasing everything is one of his wincons (or is that only full power Asriel?) and maybe atomizing Alien X because of sheer AP.

 

[FRIMI]

i think thats what we're going with. also, both Alien X and Asriel Dreemur have multiversal AP and Dura, plus a celestialsapien sword was able to cut through something stated by basically god to be impossible to penetrate, so I think its fair to say that Asriel's infinite Def shouldn't be a huge issue if ben intends on just killing after mind hax-ing.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Alien X has higher AP, As he scales above this

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Also Servantis is an extraordinary genius so if he says erase then he means erase. Also backed up by his subordinates (at least the smarter one) saying that Ben will be destroyed when talking about sub-quantum level destruction instead of saying erased: 16:00

A Low 2-C destruction is by definition erasure of a universe.

Not only does it not exist now, but it never existed to begin with.

 

[FRIMI]

yeah the chrono-navigator is also a thing

 

[Greenshifter]

Yes and Asriel is infinitely superior to Flowey (yet not 2-A because standards). Look I remember a thread where people couldn't decide if Asriel of Xeno Goku had the higher AP, thus if those 2 are comparable then Asriel can atomize Alien X because Xeno Goku can.

 

[Greenshifter]

Ben 10 universes exist in the past even when erased but the Chronosapien Time Bomb and Anihilaarg, blame Man of Action. And yes those don't have EE on their profile (yet) but someone is seriously gonna have to explain how half of people that erase multiverses get EE and the other half doesn't so I can decide if those weapons have EE or not.

 

[FRIMI]

Can you link the thread? Cuz something about that doesn't sound right, no offense

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Being infinitely above a non countless 2-B doesn't make you a countless 2-B, so Alien X has higher AP

 

[FRIMI]

well one way or another, I vote for Alien X cuz mind hax/EE/time manip (yes I still think localized time manip would work even before mind hax are used)

 

[Greenshifter]

Adem Warlock aha that is the answer I wanted to hear. So does Asriel have a wincon?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Pretty sure infinitely stronger was disagreed with.

Omega Flowey's stats are never revealed. You never get to know if his stats are finite.

 

[Badrimoine2019]

I'm completely confused

 

[FRIMI]

by what?

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Adem Warlock aha that is the answer I wanted to hear. So does Asriel have a wincon?

True Reset

 

[Lord_JJJ]

This is simply my opinion:

Asriel wins if alien X was in character, since Ben will never use EE from in character. Asriel possesses far higher AP and Memory Erasure and starting with either danmako or Memory Erasure is something in character to him, if it the biggest thing Alien X do with his mind gax is affecting 6 people, it will not be enough, because Asriel body mixed with every monster in the underground, even though their personality does not affect Asriel, but their minds are still exist and alien X does not have mind hax can influence Thousands. And Asriel Save and load will give him big help

As if the Alien X is bloodlust, he will erase Asriel and the fight will end

The result of the first fight between Asriel and Alien X did not change

 

[Greenshifter]

@Ricsi but AX has the advantage due to being countless right? (Admittedly the worst countless on the site, but still countless)

 

[Greenshifter]

@Lord JJJ Memory erasure fails for the same reason soul hax does, his mind is out of range.

 

[Greenshifter]

@Adem how fast would he go for true reset when bloodlusted and does it have charge time?

 

[FRIMI]

what are you talking about? the result of the first fight absolutely changed. soul hax no longer works on AX and he has EE now. Those not being the case were the 2 main reasons Asirel won. You can still make a case for Asriel, but the first fight no longer stands. Also, it's never said that the most ben can do is effecting 6 people, but even if that were the case, the argument you make for Asriel not being effected holds practically no bearing. It's essentially based off of a head cannon

 

[Greenshifter]

@Frimi we go for highest showing here (mindhax = 6 people), not what someone could possibly do.

 

[FRIMI]

both mind hax and EE are instantanious, so you'd need to tie him for true reset. Also, unlike Asriel's time hax, Alien X can also stop time locally, which means that even if it's also instantanious, Alien X should still be faster

 

[Greenshifter]

No because time stop is also thought based, if Alien X thinks time stop and Asriel thinks true reset then Asriel wins if true reset has no charge time.

 

[Badrimoine2019]

This is simply my opinion:

Asriel wins if alien X was in character, since Ben will never use EE from in character. Asriel possesses far higher AP and Memory Erasure and starting with either danmako or Memory Erasure is something in character to him, if it the biggest thing Alien X do with his mind gax is affecting 6 people, it will not be enough, because Asriel body mixed with every monster in the underground, even though their personality does not affect Asriel, but their minds are still exist and alien X does not have mind hax can influence Thousands. And Asriel Save and load will give him big help

As if the Alien X is bloodlust, he will erase Asriel and the fight will end

The result of the first fight between Asriel and Alien X did not change

We don't know even what alien x is really capable of doing, all what we know is that alien x can mind hax than he can mind hax asriel and the results of the first fight would 100 % change since alien x can EE, begin imminue to mind and soul hax, info manipulation, time manipulation, mind hax and other stuff