Alien X vs Asriel Dreemurr. Round 2

[Ricsi-viragosi]

He would probably be able to go so far as to rewind Asriel's form way back to when he was a DETERMINATION-less, non-sentient, flower, and since it's only localized time manip, that wouldn't actually bring back Asriel's original body, not that it would matter since if he did bring back Asriel's original body, he could just kick Asriel's ass

No, he could not. That is just not how it works.

Asriel's DT can't be destroyed by time manipulation. It can exist if time his rewound, if the past is changed or if time ceases to exist, much like Frisk. Rewinding Asriel to a flower wouldn't work, but even if it did his DT would just make him into Asriel again.

 

[FRIMI]

but if Asriel is rewound back to before he absorbed any souls, he wouldn't have any more DETERMINATION than flowey does. In the event that he tries to load a save from when he was Asriel, the LOAD would fail, like what happens in the Photoshop Flowey fight after you liberate all the human souls

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

but if Asriel is rewound back to before he absorbed any souls, he wouldn't have any more DETERMINATION than flowey does. In the event that he tries to load a save from when he was Asriel, the LOAD would fail, like what happens in the Photoshop Flowey fight after you liberate all the human souls

Except he already erased the time that happened so he wouldn't be effected by it not happening.

 

[FRIMI]

I'm a bit confused as to what you're trying to say. Can you be a bit more specific?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

but if Asriel is rewound back to before he absorbed any souls, he wouldn't have any more DETERMINATION than flowey does. In the event that he tries to load a save from when he was Asriel, the LOAD would fail, like what happens in the Photoshop Flowey fight after you liberate all the human souls

Except DT does not care about that, because it's above time and ******* with time did not affect it.

Regardless of what happens, the DT would not go away.

What happens to Photoshop is the souls rebelling. His resource of DT left him of it's own volition, making him lose his abilities. The same doesn't apply to time being simply rewound.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Asriel erased the entire timeline, including his previous existence as Flowey. What makes you think that if Alien X Rewinds Time that he'll revert to hiw he was before? It's textbook Acausality.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Okey but since alien x is nigh-omniscient than he, would know what asriel is gonna do and he would know everything about the whole save/Load thing so alien x would be able to stop him before he can do anything

Unless same Nigh-Omniscience somehow actively analyzes people from realities outside of what he knew existed, no.

 

[Badrimoine2019]

Okey but since alien x is nigh-omniscient than he, would know what asriel is gonna do and he would know everything about the whole save/Load thing so alien x would be able to stop him before he can do anything.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Okey but since alien x is nigh-omniscient than he, would know what asriel is gonna do and he would know everything about the whole save/Load thing so alien x would be able to stop him before he can do anything.

Not without proof that he can do that, no.

 

[Badrimoine2019]

What do you mean by "without proof" LAMO ? It's written in his profile he is nigh omniscient + even the creators stated taht alien x can become omniscient if he wishes to so yeah he would stop asriel before he can even do anything

 

[FRIMI]

Doesn't asriel only have type 1 acausality? I see no reason why localized time manip wouldn't work

 

[Badrimoine2019]

How will nigh-omniscience make him know about save and load? Even if it will make know about save and load, he can't do anything for stop it. And I want to know from what caming Alien X nigh-omniscience?

The creators stated by theme selves that alien x can become omniscient if he wishes to and yes if alien x did know about asriel save/load than alien x would stop asriel before he can even do a thing : https://manofaction.tv/blog/sunday-funday-for-the-fans/

 

[Lord_JJJ]

Okey but since alien x is nigh-omniscient than he, would know what asriel is gonna do and he would know everything about the whole save/Load thing so alien x would be able to stop him before he can do anything.

How will nigh-omniscience make him know about save and load? Even if it will make know about save and load, he can't do anything for stop it. And I want to know from what caming Alien X nigh-omniscience?

 

[Badrimoine2019]

Doesn't asriel only have type 1 acausality? I see no reason why localized time manip wouldn't work

I've completely forgot about that

 

[FRIMI]

You do know that omniscience means all knowing, right? Also, when Alien X recreated the universe, it included details that Ben couldn't have possibly known about, including the minds, thoughts, and memories of every living being in the universe. So I'd say that that's a pretty good argument for nigh omniscience

 

[Badrimoine2019]

How will nigh-omniscience make him know about save and load? Even if it will make know about save and load, he can't do anything for stop it. And I want to know from what caming Alien X nigh-omniscience?

Please stop replying I've already answered to you :

The creators stated by theme selves that alien x can become omniscient if he wishes to and yes if alien x did know about asriel save/load than alien x would stop asriel before he can even do a thing : https://manofaction.tv/blog/sunday-funday-for-the-fans/

 

[FRIMI]

Besides, even without that, Alien X has mind hax

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Doesn't asriel only have type 1 acausality? I see no reason why localized time manip wouldn't work

The types don't dictate all mechanics, because they are obviously verse to verse.

The fact that DT, and people who own that DT, are unafected by time being ****** with is a fact. They have past and present versions (no type 2), their alternate versions never help them (no type 3), they still work according to logic (no type 4) and they certainly don't transcend casuality (no type 5).

That does not mean time rewind will have any effectiveness on them.

 

[Lord_JJJ]

Being nigh-omniscience will not make you know the ability of someone from another verse, I seen this in several other vs threats

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Please stop replying I've already answered to you :

The creators stated by theme selves that alien x can become omniscient if he wishes to and yes if alien x did know about asriel save/load than alien x would stop asriel before he can even do a thing : https://manofaction.tv/blog/sunday-funday-for-the-fans/

That is useless tough.

Prehaps he could, but that would completely **** his mind up. He would know every possibly outcome, every possible happening, etc. and become a textbook nihlist with no reason to do anything.

 

[FRIMI]

that seems like a bit of a leap. There's tons of examples of non-textbook nihlist omniscient beings

 

[Badrimoine2019]

That is useless tough.

Prehaps he could, but that would completely **** his mind up. He would know every possibly outcome, every possible happening, etc. and become a textbook nihlist with no reason to do anything.

Yes but still he would be able somehow to stop him if he new what the save/Load is also alien x can just mind hax him or erasing him from existence so i dont see how asriel would win this fight at all especially if alien x is bloodlusted

 

[FRIMI]

yeah, I thought that the current discussion was about if Alien X would win if he didn't have EE. I feel I should clarify: are we in agreement that Alien X wins this fight because of EE?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

yeah, I thought that the current discussion was about if Alien X would win if he didn't have EE. I feel I should clarify: are we in agreement that Alien X wins this fight because of EE?

Without It's EE being shown on how it works, not really.

Mindhax can work, but all the other stuff mentioned 'till now was pretty bad.

 

[Greenshifter]

Kevin states that Alien X can blink and "we'd be gone" and Ben believes Alien X can do anything, while maybe not his go-to move even when bloodlusted, there is a high probability Bellicus will propose EE and Ben and Serena will agree because of bloodlusted.

I will now systematically go through the thread to debunk or clarify stuff.

 

[FRIMI]

to quote Kevin, "they could just blink and you'd be gone" I don't know if I got that quote exactly right

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Yeah, any being below tier 3 would say that about a tier 2...

That could count for anything, from killling them as a newborn, atomizing them through sheer AP, and so on.

 

[Greenshifter]

It is likely that it refers to EE and it was accepted as such once we got proof from Servantis that Alien X can indeed EE.

 

[Greenshifter]

Because Alien X got a New ability and people is putting him in bloodlust Mode to make him use it.

Even if it's never shown.

People can have some fun right? It's kinda the point of bloodlusted to make people use moves they normally wouldn't really use.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

It is likely that it refers to EE and it was accepted as such once we got proof from Servantis that Alien X can indeed EE.

Is it shown with Servantis how he EEs?

Because again, that statement is way to open ended to assume EE based on it.

I also doubt the EE would work on Asriel's DT, but I won't get into that.

 

[Greenshifter]

Alien X isn't omnipresent. Look at his file.

And Asriel's Acausality nopes the paradox.

Dude, this is the very same thing that the previous thread.

If Alien X reverses time there should be no paradox since that only happens with time travel, that said I am not sure that reversing time will work on Asriel.

 

[Badrimoine2019]

It is likely that it refers to EE and it was accepted as such once we got proof from Servantis that Alien X can indeed EE.

Wasn't alien x also going to erase professor paradox from existence?

 

[Greenshifter]

Yeah possibly but I don't think they said erase and we still don't know how it would exactly work from that it's as vague as Servantis' statement (as in it doesn't clarify how the power works, just that he has it)

 

[FRIMI]

Ricsi-viragosi, It seems to me that what you propose is that it is impossible for Asriel to lose a fight against anybody that doesn't go for the "save" option and that seems a bit disingenuous to me

 

[Greenshifter]

Not only that, but Asriel got his powers in a whole different reality, and taking a chunk of the time in the neutral battlefield wouldn't let him rewind far enough, nor would it affect Asriel's memories.

Rewinding time on a neutral battlefield should work just fine just like time travel should work fine since we assume a composite universe in these sorts of scenarios (brought this up in a time travel thread by Promestein and she pretty much agreed I think). Alternate realities make it a bit more complicated but it doesn't matter since the rest you said seems enough reason that time reverse wouldn't do anything.

 

[Badrimoine2019]

Yeah possibly but I don't think they said erase and we still don't know how it would exactly work from that it's as vague as Servantis' statement (as in it doesn't clarify how the power works, just that he has it)

bruh it simple alien x can wish someone out of existence so he won't exist anymore lol it simple as that

 

[FRIMI]

the main reason Asriel won the first time was because of soul hax and AX not having EE. Now AX is immune to soul hax and has EE

 

[Greenshifter]

If EE isn't used, how would AX win?

Info manipulation might work, if not then he doesn't win. That said can Asriel oneshot with AP? Ben 10 has a pretty slowly expanding multiverse so if Asriel can atomize then he has a wincon.

 

[Greenshifter]

Besides, even without that, Alien X has mind hax

Which is also his second go to move in character, it works on 6 people, enough to bypass Asriel's resistance to memory shenanigans?

 

[FRIMI]

I don't think atomizing would work, let alone be something that Asriel can do. Asriel has multiversal AP and Alien X has multiversal durbility. Same thing the other way around. Alien X does have mind hax tho. That could also be a winning play

edit: I wrote this before reloading to see your comment. I don't see what mind control has to do with resistence to memory erasure, so yeah, it'd work imo