Alex Mercer vs The Ancestor

[DMUA]

Well, they're both terrible people who seem to want to atone for their misdeeds, you find out later both aren't actually themselves, they've both got tentacle attacks, both receive weird visions from a strange fluid, and both were incredibly intelligent individuals in "life".

And they're haxed.

And if I want a verse i like to get infamy, I better challenge Gar about it.

Speed Equalized

Low 7-C versions used

Otherwise Standard Battle Assumptions

Alex Mercer:

The Ancestor: 1 (Mr. Bambu)

Inconclusive: 7 (DeathNoodles, ZackMoon1234, Xtasyamphetamine, CoreOfimBalance(COB), Hl3 or bust, Jimboydejuan12 and Gargoyle One)

 

[Wokistan]

Anyone know how good Alex's mental resists are? Hive mind feats are vague.

 

[DMUA]

Well, Greene was effecting a beefy amount of New York by the time Mercer ate her. So, probably in the millions range.

 

[Wokistan]

Not like that, I mean the issue is that Greene was a hive mind and those sometimes don't count.

 

[DMUA]

Well, I mean, I think if you get mindhaxed by someone who's in a hivemind, and they still have control of everything as they hax and try to assimilate you, it counts.

That said, Mercer has never witnessed the Eldrich Type 4 shenanigans that The Ancestor has up his sleeves.

 

[Wokistan]

So, throwing that aside for now.

Alex's Regenerationn isn't infinite, as he does need biomass to do so. As the Ancestor can rend the flesh off a man with a raise of the hand, I feel that that sort of thing repeated enough should be good to overcome the Regenerationn at some point, especially given his apparent AP advantage (3.08 Kilotons vs several times 127 tons). The stuff he learned from the necromancers would also help, should Alex prove overly resilient. He also starts off totally immune to any sort of damage Alex can do, given this AP disadvantage coupled with his invulnerability, and his void shields only help in surviving. I'm giving it to the Ancestor over a battle of attrition as of now. I'd like to see how much mental stuff matters though, since Ancestor's very likely to do that.

 

[DMUA]

It's 127 x 9 is the deal.

So yeah, The Ancestor does have a bit of a beefed advantage

Though, I wouldn't underestimate Mercer. His invunerability isn't much of a threat, because he has one simple thing up his sleeves: Absorbtion. While in game, you have to beat up stuff before you can absorb them, out of game, he was able to eat all his 8 Evolved at once with a little bit of tendril shenanigans. If he so much as touches the Ancestor once, he'll Immediately absorb his biomass and GG.

Of course, then there's the madness Hax which is really the sort of thing this fight is dependant on.

 

[Wokistan]

Duplicates cause Alex to have a lower chance of getting the right one. Also, Alex caught all those evolved off guard and was stronger than them. You'll notice how he didn't absorb Heller during their fight. Void shields also pose an issue in Alex coming into contact.

 

[DMUA]

He didn't absorb Heller because he actively resisted it. I mean, he straight up had to mash out of it.

If he absorbs duplicates which are just as strong as the Ancestor themselves, after about 2 of them the Ancestor is going to start having way more trouble killing him, for one. Void shields will be tough though

Of course again

M I N D H A X

 

[Wokistan]

That's fair

I mean if one got straight up absorbed and Alex got stronger, ancestor'd probably not keep making them.

Would this be a stomp if it turns out that works? Due to being comparable to HoD in this regard (hell he uses the thing itself for some of the insanity inducemtny), at the absolute worst it's thousands.

 

[DMUA]

I mean, he has to take a moment to activate, meanwhile Alex could throw some tendrils his way/rush him and grapple him.

It's anywhere between a quick draw Inconclusive and Ancestor just having shorter activation time.

 

[Wokistan]

Didn't Alex still get the vision from Greene? The thing about Embrace Futility is that it's not really a mental assault like his existence, and as such idk how much resistances help to begin with. Consider that it can traumatize both extremely zealous and stalwart party members who have absolute confidence, and the suicidal nihilists who shouldn't really have much of a reason to care otherwise.

 

[DMUA]

>Extremely Zealous

Except, everyone in the Darkest Dungeon is kinda messed up in the head one way or another, like, the Crusader just kinda has a tendency to steal stuff as per the starter character, and everyone in general has some sort of problem.

Either way, yeah, I don't think Mercer really is gonna last very long at all against it.

 

[Wokistan]

That's just the one guy tho

And I mean you can still stress out people on virtuous, the Man at Arm's didn't really do anything wrong, and these guys at this point are hardened from everything else in the game. Alex also gains memories upon absorption, which includes absolutely everything about the HoD and all the other cosmic beings the Ancestor learned about, so if the other stuff doesn't break him, I'm pretty sure that will, forcing an inconclusive at worst.

 

[Wokistan]

Look at the Flagellant, the most insane by default party member. Stress makes him better, he's utterly devoted to his tasks, is a huge massochist, and doesn't even give a shit about his life, shown by how he's buffed when near dead and if chosen for instakill at the end, he basically dares the heart to do it. Even someone like him, who logically shouldn't really care about the futility of their task, is affected by that.

 

[DMUA]

Ah.

Alright, that's fair

 

[DeathNoodles]

Sees Prototype 2 Mercer being used

Looks at Mercer's immortalities

Uh, Mercer decides to infect everything around him, as it's perfectly in-character for Mercer to do that at the beginning of the fight. And once that happens, how is the Ancestor going to get past his Type 6 Immortality?

 

[DeathNoodles]

Duplicates cause Alex to have a lower chance of getting the right one. Also, Alex caught all those evolved off guard and was stronger than them. You'll notice how he didn't absorb Heller during their fight. Void shields also pose an issue in Alex coming into contact.

He wasn't able to absorb Heller because of the latter resisting the former's absorption for some strange reason (probably PIS related). Heller resisted it because of some strange "resislient DNA" BS, being caught offguard and being weaker has nothing to do with the absorption HAX. Plus, Mercer has shown to be able to absorb through physical contact before even Prototype 2 took place (like in the Prototype comics, which is canon), so he'll still be able to absorb characters through physical contact if they have not shown resistance to Absorption and Biological Manipulation (unlike Heller, who has shown such).

For this fight, I'm not sure how Mercer could get past the Madness Manipulation type 4, but Mercer's resistance to mindhax is definitely scaleable to Elizabeth Greene (who tried to mindhax him before, which he resisted), and she was pretty much controlling the minds of millions by then.

Edit: Also, the Ancestor flaying the flesh of a man by raising his hand is categorised as Biological Manipulation. And well... Mercer has resistance to Biological Manipulation. I don't think that's going to work against Mercer.

 

[DMUA]

Uh, Mercer decides to infect everything around him, as it's perfectly in-character for Mercer to do that at the beginning of the fight. And once that happens, how is the Ancestor going to get past his Type 6 Immortality?

Boi what

I don't remember Type 6 ever being a thing, and definitely not in the fashion that would allow him to get saved from getting completely mindhaxed by staring into the Eldrich monstrosity that The Ancestor is.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Last mind res feat I remember from Alex is him suffering from tapping into the Prototype hivemind. Iirc. But either way Ancestor should likely win even without mind haxx

 

[Wokistan]

I don't think other people are around by SBA.

If he absorbs memories upon absorbing clones, that would drive him insane due to that carrying the collective madness of basically everything in the game.

He still has to get by shields of void to touch him.

First of all, the minds that Greene was controlling were those already infected by redlight. She's basically the redlight hive mind, and has not shown that degree of control over uninfected people. Alex, being Blacklight, isn't as directly linked to her as the others and as such doesn't have to tank the full potency of her mindhax. This still doesn't matter, as she was still able to give him visions which is all the Ancestor needs for type 3.

AP advantage.

 

[DeathNoodles]

Uh, Mercer decides to infect everything around him, as it's perfectly in-character for Mercer to do that at the beginning of the fight. And once that happens, how is the Ancestor going to get past his Type 6 Immortality?

Boi what
I don't remember Type 6 ever being a thing, and definitely not in the fashion that would allow him to get saved from getting completely mindhaxed by staring into the Eldrich monstrosity that The Ancestor is.

He has resistance to mindhax.

Madness Manipulation 4 isn't a type of hax that stems from Mind Manipulation however.

His type 6 Immortality stems from Mercer's very nature as a virus hijacking a corpse as a body. If his type 6 Immortality stems from that (as it explicitly stated in his profile), then it wouldn't be much of a stretch to assume that he can simply jus transfer his conciousness to an infected around him.

 

[DMUA]

Except for the part where Heller beat him to death and

He couldn't exactly just nab Heller's body or, by the looks of everything Heller succed by the end of the game, any of the infected at all

IE I'm very sure that ability doesn't actually have any showings of actually being a thing

 

[DeathNoodles]

I don't think other people are around by SBA.
If he absorbs memories upon absorbing clones, that would drive him insane due to that carrying the collective madness of basically everything in the game.

He still has to get by shields of void to touch him.

First of all, the minds that Greene was controlling were those already infected by redlight. She's basically the redlight hive mind, and has not shown that degree of control over uninfected people. Alex, being Blacklight, isn't as directly linked to her as the others and as such doesn't have to tank the full potency of her mindhax. This still doesn't matter, as she was still able to give him visions which is all the Ancestor needs for type 3.

AP advantage.

Which he might not even need to do as his first move would be unleashing the Infected Creator gas and then infect his opponent and everything else in the city, which he would definitely do once he sees the "dispicable" race that is the humans walking around.

The Ancestor would have to deal with all kinds of nasty, fatal infections that can biologically mess him up for good.

Greene being of the Redlight doesn't really matter as her mindhax still scales otherwise. Greene being able to affect him with the visions still wouldn't have mattered as Mercer's profile explicitly stated that he has resisted it, so Mercer would be able to resist the Ancestor's Mindhax in this case. Don't even get me started on the fact that Mercer resists mindhax by default due to literlly immersing his conciousness with his hivemind (which, if he didn't have resistance to mindhax, he woud've been overwhelmed by the sheer quantity of the minds present and being driven to insanity, but he didn't, so...).

AP advantange isn't much of an advantage if Mercer has the Regenerationn advantage. And the flesh flaying would not work against Mercer as he has resistance to Biological Manipulation.

 

[DeathNoodles]

Except for the part where Heller beat him to death and
He couldn't exactly just nab Heller's body or, by the looks of everything Heller succed by the end of the game, any of the infected at all

IE I'm very sure that ability doesn't exist

And Heller has resisted being Biologicallly Manipulated by Mercer even before the final fight, as well as unleashing tendrils that wiped out every infected in the city very shortly after he consumed Mercer. I don't think Mercer even has the chance to come back from that. Mercer being originally a virus being contained in vial and possessing the corpse of the real Alex Mercer proves such.

Just because there was never an opportunity for Mercer to use his Type 6 Immortality doesn't mean he never has such. When was there a time that Mercer has "died" and needed such? Pretty much none.

 

[DMUA]

Yeah

Thereby

He doesn't have actual proof it's a thing he can use in a fight

 

[DeathNoodles]

Yeah
Thereby

He doesn't have actual proof it's a thing he can use in a fight

And yet type 6 immortality is listed in his profile.

Even if we're discounting that due to lack of proof being used in a fight, the Ancestor has to get past being infected by the gas. Any counter arguments for that?

 

[DMUA]

It should be outed

The Ancestor can just

Not stand next to Mercer when it happens, or just use his "IMMUNE" status to tell his disease based ability to go fork itself

 

[DeathNoodles]

It should be outed
The Ancestor can just

Not stand next to Mercer when it happens, or just use his "IMMUNE" status to tell his disease based ability to go fork itself

And how is the Ancestor going to even avoid that when he doesn't even have Teleportation as an ability in his profile? Mercer's infection could pretty much infect an entire city (and the infection rate could even work within a few seconds), how's the Ancestor even going to escape that? And SBA says he starts within Mercer's range.

From what I can see, having resistance to Status Effect Inducement alone does not give one resistance to Disease Manipulation or Biological Manipulation. Since The Ancestor doesn't have either in his profile, he would not be able to resist Mercer's infection and Biological Manipulation. Saying otherwise because he has resistance to Status Effect Inducement is NLF and should not be used.

Edit: And the Blacklight Virus is no ordinary disease as it has shown many feats to prove such (and along with being superior to its predecessor, the Redlight Virus), so there's that. If the Ancestor does not have any feats to resist Biological or Disease hax, then he doesn't resist it by default.

 

[DMUA]

And SBA says he starts within Mercer's range.

From what I can see, having resistance to Status Effect Inducement alone does not give one resistance to Disease Manipulation or Biological Manipulation. Since The Ancestor doesn't have either in his profile, he would not be able to resist Mercer's infection and Biological Manipulation. Saying otherwise because he has resistance to Status Effect Inducement is NLF and should not be used.

Edit: And the Blacklight Virus is no ordinary disease as it has shown many feats to prove such (and along with being superior to its predecessor, the Redlight Virus), so there's that.

It starts at the maximum range of either characters, and, the Ancestor doesn't need to really teleport considering that would mean he starts 4 KM away due to Mercer having enough range to infect the city.

Diseases are a status effect in game, along with blight, which can work as toxins, Acid, and disease ridden heckery.

Though yes, blacklight isn't conveniental at all, but, again, the ancestor really doesn't even need to just sit around in his range. If speed equalizes to the low end, supersonic is more then enough to clear the infection zone before it's a problem.

 

[Wokistan]

Idk if blacklight can really affect a cosmic horror, not sure if that's something it'd need feats of or not

Will respond to everything else a little later

 

[DeathNoodles]

And SBA says he starts within Mercer's range.

From what I can see, having resistance to Status Effect Inducement alone does not give one resistance to Disease Manipulation or Biological Manipulation. Since The Ancestor doesn't have either in his profile, he would not be able to resist Mercer's infection and Biological Manipulation. Saying otherwise because he has resistance to Status Effect Inducement is NLF and should not be used.

Edit: And the Blacklight Virus is no ordinary disease as it has shown many feats to prove such (and along with being superior to its predecessor, the Redlight Virus), so there's that.

It starts at the maximum range of either characters, and, the Ancestor doesn't need to really teleport considering that would mean he starts 4 KM away due to Mercer having enough range to infect the city.
Diseases are a status effect in game, along with blight, which can work as toxins, Acid, and disease ridden heckery.

Though yes, blacklight isn't conveniental at all, but, again, the ancestor really doesn't even need to just sit around in his range. If speed equalizes to the low end, supersonic is more then enough to clear the infection zone before it's a problem.

And how would the Ancestor even have knowledge that it's a physics-defying disease? From what I can tell in the Ancestor's profile, his Clairvoyance only works by sensing the malicious intent of the target and by drinking their blood, it wouldn't actually give him any information about Mercer's gas being a Blacklight disease (and drinking Mercer's blood is a very bad idea).


...That alone still would not give the Ancestor resisance to Mercer's biological hax.

The Ancestor would then also have to deal with an entire infected army chasing after him, and even infecting him in various ways.

 

[DeathNoodles]

Idk if blacklight can really affect a cosmic horror, not sure if that's something it'd need feats of or not
Will respond to everything else a little later

Unless the Ancestor has resistance to such hax, he's not resisting it. It's as simple as that. Assuming otherwise because he is an eldritch abomination is a NLF.

 

[Wokistan]

So, lets addresss some concerns.

Virus stuff
I do not believe it's NLF to say that a being with such an alien biology isn't going to get infected by a bio weapon designed to infect humans. Viruses don't just infect everything, they have specific organisms they can do that to. There's a reason for the H in HIV and HPV, because that is the type that can actually infect humans. So I'd say that Alex would actually need feats in the other direction.

Type 6
Not sure how I should consider this when there's absolutely no justification or explanation on the file. It also kinda doesn't stop him from going insane. Also id'd have been pretty helpful for him to use it during the Heller fight.

Mindhax
Firstly, any scans of Greene using mindhax on those she hasn't infected? From what I can tell, being infected seems to be a prerequisite to this. Second, he doesn't need to force his way into the mind or take it over or anything in the first place. All that is needed is for him to show a vision, which Greene was able to successfully do. The type 4 is still more important, as even the type 3 works off of this.

Undead army
Aren't they all like tier 9-8? Ancestor raises his hand and kills them.

 

[DeathNoodles]

So, lets addresss some concerns.==Virus stuff==
I do not believe it's NLF to say that a being with such an alien biology isn't going to get infected by a bio weapon designed to infect humans. Viruses don't just infect everything, they have specific organisms they can do that to. There's a reason for the H in HIV and HPV, because that is the type that can actually infect humans. So I'd say that Alex would actually need feats in the other direction.

Type 6
Not sure how I should consider this when there's absolutely no justification or explanation on the file. It also kinda doesn't stop him from going insane. Also id'd have been pretty helpful for him to use it during the Heller fight.

Mindhax
Firstly, any scans of Greene using mindhax on those she hasn't infected? From what I can tell, being infected seems to be a prerequisite to this. Second, he doesn't need to force his way into the mind or take it over or anything in the first place. All that is needed is for him to show a vision, which Greene was able to successfully do. The type 4 is still more important, as even the type 3 works off of this.

Undead army
Aren't they all like tier 9-8? Ancestor raises his hand and kills them.

The Blacklight Virus is by no means an ordinary virus. You're trying to apply the logic of real life viruses into a fictional virus, which simply doesn't work as Mercer's existence defies all that (as we know in real life, viruses can't gain sentience as they are just a bunch of RNA. But Mercer himself has gained sentience, which proves that Blacklight is by no means a conventional virus). As for feats, Redlight has outright shown feats of infecting organisms, both humans and animals alike (there's even on-screen proof of such, which is in the Prototype comics). And Blacklight is proven to be superior to Redlight, and is stated to be more deadly and infective than even Redlight itself. There are several evidences of both Redlight being able to infect humans and animals alike (and Blacklight being able to do such via scaling, which is valid by the way), and there are even such proof in the Prototype wikia. If anything, the burden of proof is on you for proving why the Ancestor should be able to resist being infected (and no, being an alien lifeform does not cover it, unless there's proof that being such gives on resistance to such unnaturally deadly diseases). If you have no actual proof, then the Ancestor simply can't resist it. Saying otherwise is NLF if there's no proof.

I have provided proof that Blacklight can infect more than just humans via feats and statements from the series (both of which are valid evidences), as well as scaling to proof that it can do such.

As for mindhax, it does not matter what the nature of the Mind Manipulation is, all it matters is the potency of such. We do not take into account of the origin of the mindhaxes, only the potency of it, which I have already told you of its potency. Whether or not Greene's mindhax requires one to be an infected or not doesn't matter as Mercer has resisted it. If Mercer has resisted such mindhax, and is faced with mindhax of a different origin from a character from an another series, but the mindhax is less potency in comparison, then we would have to assume that characters such as Mercer could resist such mindhax. Especially as, even if the nature of the mindhax is different, by resisting a more potent mindhax, then it'll only be logical that characters like Mercer can resist such mindhax as they are simply equal to or less potent in comparison to the mindhax they have faced. Also, while Greene did successfully force visions on Mercer, it was only initially. Mercer was shown to be able to resist it later on. If characters like Mercer were once vulnerable to mindhax, but they have resisted it later on, then that simply means that mindhax that used to work on them before would no longer work on them again. Or else, going by your logic, characters like Seras Victoria would be vulnerable to illusions as she has been affected by such before, despite the fact that she has gained the capability to resist it later on (being able to see through it and all).

From what I can tell, Greene's mindhax no longer worked on Mercer as the game progresses (perhaps due to him actively resisting it? Either way, he has resisted it), so Mercer's resistance to Mind Manipulation is still valid.

For the Infected army, most of the powerful ones are easily tier 8-As. Not like that matters because the Ancestor would have to kill a lot of them before they dogpile him. Once that happens, they could pretty much infect him by bleeding on him (amongst other methods). And unless I see proof of the Ancestor flesh flaying a large amount of targets, I don't see him being not being overwhelmed by the sheer numbers.

 

[Wokistan]

You're not supposed to quote large chunks of text like that btw, it lags the thrrad

Oh yeah I kinda forgot his type 8 based on the Heart of Darkness rip

Firstly, not everything that is an assumption is an NLF. I think this is just something we're gonna disagree on, as I don't feel that you should be able to assume that diseases, which are something based around the specific biological makeup of the victim, are going to work on something so foreign, as even the most versatile diseases don't really work like that. I guess others will read the thread and come to their own conclusions off of that.

It does matter, actually. Greene's only good mindhax was on redlight dudes because she's the hivemind for red light. She doesn't have good feats otherwise and thus Alex resisting her isn't really impressive due to him not being part of her hive mind. The important one though is the type 4, which mental resistance or jot I don't see any ways for him to get around this. All the ancestor or a clone has to do is morph into a slightly more natural form and there goes Alex's mind.

They start pretty far apart, he can make void shields, clones, flay groups ofn4 at a time with just a gesture, is physically low 7-C, I don't see him getting overrun before Alex is driven to insanity. Alex also kinda doesn't do that to single opponents.

 

[DeathNoodles]

Again, Blacklight is not an ordinary virus. Due to how Blacklight works, as long as the target is biological or organic, then it will work (though it doesn't help that Redlight has shown to be able to infect inanimate objects. which Blacklight scales to). Though guess this is something we are bound to disagree on, but I would like for you to be aware that Blacklight is no ordinary disease (as it has feats that proves otherwise), thus you should not treat it like it is some typical virus (which it is not, as shown by its feats, which can violate the laws of physics and biology).

Greene is of Redlight, yet she was still able to affect Mercer intially. No matter how you say it, Mercer's resistance of mindhax is valid as he has shown to be able to resist quite a potent Mind Manipulation ability (which I have already told you of its potency). Again, we judge mindhax based on potency most of all, the nature of the mindhaxes are just that, just simply the mechanics of how each mindhax operate. Whether or not Greene can mindhax a non-infected doesn't matter as Mercer has resisted mindhax of that potency. We don't disregard potency just because the mindhax of a setting is assumed to only work on specific individuals.

And they can close the distance. If Mercer goes anywhere near the Ancestor, he would just unleash an infected gas on the Ancestor and infect him. It doesn't help that Mercer's Stealth Mastery means that he can simply remain undetected by the Ancestor (and probably never have to encounter him up close and personal). If not, he can simply just unleash a Devastor on the Ancestor, and then incapacitate him, allowing him to close the distance. Also, the Ancestor would have to deal with flying infected, as well as having to use his clones and flaying groups 4 at a time. I'm pretty sure it's a matter of time before he gets overwhelmed by sheer numbers, especially since Mercer can just create more infected.

 

[Wokistan]

What I am saying that her potency with regards to red light beings don't translate to her potency with regards to other red lights. Regardless of what's decided about that though, Alex has no way around the type 4.

His stealth mastery is by disguising as people and stuff, whereas the ancestor would in character kill anyone before him without a second thought here regardless of their appearance or anything. Void shields are a big issue to Alex, and I don't see him getting overrun before Alex goes insane due to the type 4.

 

[Wokistan]

I've gotta go to sleep at this point though, so no more responses from me.

 

[DMUA]

whereas the ancestor would in character kill anyone before him without a second thought here regardless of their appearance or anything.

I should elaborate on this

As his years of diving into Eldrich forkery went on, he became extremely paranoid at whoever somewhat looked like they were going to get in his way, causing him to completely ruin their existence in brutal fashions.

As the Avatar of the Heart of Darkness, he somehow gives less forks and would totally rip Alex apart to feed his new lord and master.