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Abstract Existence Type 1 for Infinite Zamasu (STAFF ONLY)

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Rez

Rez

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Ok so the previous thread got derailed really badly I decided to make a new.
Now I will present the argument in favour of infinite zamasu getting ae type 1

Their are two arguments for this actually let me start with the one that clear as water

1)Toei's official timeline for Goku black arc states infinte Zamasu's is zamasu's will Official source here and here's Hermes translations for the timeline


Now that we are done with the simple one let's go towards the more controversial one
2)this one comes from artbook within Blu ray volume 6 box
トランクスに切り裂かれた合体ザマスだったが、その念は空へと舞い上がり地球全体を包み込んだ。

When I put this in 2 different translators I got this
From Google translate
It was a united Zamas that was torn by trunks, but the thought soared into the sky and wrapped the whole earth
From Bing
It was a combined zamas cut into trunks, but that mind soared into the sky and enveloped the entire earth.
And
念 here can mean feeling,thought or idea
And I have also posted it on translation thread
Now here's the irrelevant part
I also asked for the translations in r/translator I know the wiki doesn't accept outside sources but I thought I should just mention it here


Now I will adress the arguments against ae
Argument one zamasusu is not conceptual in nature well that's actually not necessary for ae type 1 as the wiki itselfs states
Abstract entities recurrently strictly embody a concept, thought or idea up to a certain level of reality. For example, Eternity only embodies time on a local, universal scale. If the universe is destroyed, so is he.
So thoughts do qualify

Now for the argument zamasu is not on an local scale well take a look at jjk curses they are made from people's mind and thoughts and zamasu is technically on a local scale since infinite zamasu became the time and space of the universe and infinite zamasu is zamasu's will

Some other suggestions made in previous post were

Supernatural Willpower and absorption: Toei's Official timeline declares Infinite zamasu to be Zamasu's will engulfing the universe, implies he is not only merging universe 7 and becoming it, but instead engulfing it into his own will which is infinite zamasu
The absorption in this is a bit iffy but willpower makes sence

And law manipulation for his ap justification this was disagreed with

And at last acausilty type 4 for this but at best it's only acausilty type 1 and maybe acausilty negation

For the sake of efficiency we should discuss these other abilities once we are done discussing ae

NOTE: STAFF ONLY
 
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Also, weren't there other suggested ability additions in the previous thread?
 
Antvasima said:
Also, weren't there other suggested ability additions in the previous thread?
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Yeah their were law manipulation and acausilty we disagreed on law manipulation and acausilty is a bit iffy so I am not bringing them here
 
I know nothing about Abstract Existence, but maybe AKM and DDM can help you out on that one?
 
Rez said:
Yeah their were law manipulation and acausilty we disagreed on law manipulation and acausilty is a bit iffy so I am not bringing them here
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The old discussion will be closed, so you should modify your first post to include the other suggestions as well.
 
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(Approval from Antvasima)

"My thing is (and I'm sure the staff probably think similar ideas) is the lack of on-screen evidence. I saw someone mention Gurren Lagann as a false equivalency example, but the two series are drastically different. For one, the type of space they were in was Super Spiral Space, which was stated by the creator of that universe that thought was given form there. Not only that, but the main cast created this same type of space within themselves.

What we know about Zamasu was that his body was the only thing granted immortality, which was why he was taking on a grotesque form in his fused state, because his immortality was no longer pure. All life in DB that isn't erased exist as souls, and if you die as a soul you cease to exist, this is a fact that goes back to regular DBZ. Gowasu speculated "he's cast off his form as a god / cast off his divine vessel" and might be trying to merge with the universe. If he was a soul, then this is doable as a soul without needing abstract existence, though in any regard it doesn't make sense how he could encompass the universe, regardless of which approach you believe in, just that he did do it.

I've also seen comparisons to Giygas as "he embodied evil", but again this character also has feats to back it up. He existed as all of the evil in the universe, and could actually manipulate evil in living beings, and could manipulate nonliving objects. Zamasu was speculated to possibly be overcoming the universe's law and order, which as AKM said, is flowery language. For those of you who like to cherry pick arguments and stopped reading at my last sentence, that's not at all my main point. All Zamasu did was turn into a vast, ethereal range of seemingly instinctual intelligence, and shoot ki blasts at Earth. Him being reduced down to his "will" (simply put, his disembodied consciousness) is an ability nobody has nor was it stated in the actual show, which means further evidence is required. Basing an entire argument on "Toei's website said so" is literally an invincible authority fallacy. From DB CRTs I've searched, Dragonball guides are almost never used except for when there is sufficient evidence in the manga and/or anime. Super Saiyan 1 multipliers just recently got accepted because it made sense with the sufficient evidence that was provided from the manga"

Side note: We need to clearly define the qualifications for abstract existence. ....and here come the waves of replies.

Side side note: This reply is for staff to get an understanding of the opposing side, I won't be replying back.
 
RisingIons said:
(Approval from Antvasima)

"My thing is (and I'm sure the staff probably think similar ideas) is the lack of on-screen evidence. I saw someone mention Gurren Lagann as a false equivalency example, but the two series are drastically different. For one, the type of space they were in was Super Spiral Space, which was stated by the creator of that universe that thought was given form there. Not only that, but the main cast created this same type of space within themselves.

What we know about Zamasu was that his body was the only thing granted immortality, which was why he was taking on a grotesque form in his fused state, because his immortality was no longer pure. All life in DB that isn't erased exist as souls, and if you die as a soul you cease to exist, this is a fact that goes back to regular DBZ. Gowasu speculated "he's cast off his form as a god / cast off his divine vessel" and might be trying to merge with the universe. If he was a soul, then this is doable as a soul without needing abstract existence, though in any regard it doesn't make sense how he could encompass the universe, regardless of which approach you believe in, just that he did do it.

I've also seen comparisons to Giygas as "he embodied evil", but again this character also has feats to back it up. He existed as all of the evil in the universe, and could actually manipulate evil in living beings, and could manipulate nonliving objects. Zamasu was speculated to possibly be overcoming the universe's law and order, which as AKM said, is flowery language. For those of you who like to cherry pick arguments and stopped reading at my last sentence, that's not at all my main point. All Zamasu did was turn into a vast, ethereal range of seemingly instinctual intelligence, and shoot ki blasts at Earth. Him being reduced down to his "will" (simply put, his disembodied consciousness) is an ability nobody has nor was it stated in the actual show, which means further evidence is required. Basing an entire argument on "Toei's website said so" is literally an invincible authority fallacy. From DB CRTs I've searched, Dragonball guides are almost never used except for when there is sufficient evidence in the manga and/or anime. Super Saiyan 1 multipliers just recently got accepted because it made sense with the sufficient evidence that was provided from the manga"

Side note: We need to clearly define the qualifications for abstract existence. ....and here come the waves of replies.

Side side note: This reply is for staff to get an understanding of the opposing side, I won't be replying back.
Click to expand...
Your point about the feat not being shown in the Anime is irrelevant as their are no Anti feats in the anime for this so the statement from tori and databook are consistent
 
And the point about he's cast off his form as a god/cast off his divine vessel is too vague to draw any meaning from and I never compared it to gurren lagann or giygas so nothing say their but I did compare it with jjk curses
 
(Received permission to comment a single time here from @AKM sama)

From what I’ve read, Infinite Zamasu is the immaterial mind/thoughts/will of Zamasu, essentially a disembodied consciousness having survived after the destruction of his body. This mostly boils down to semantics, but it’s worth noting that awhile back a similar debate on what differentiates simple Incorporeality and true Abstract Existence came to the consensus that AE strictly refers to conceptual or metaphysical ideas that shape the universe and that consciousnesses do not count as AE. If these guidelines still hold up, Zamasu shouldn’t quantify for AE.

Side notes:
  • As pointed out the law and order statements are metaphorical
  • I disagree with the Absorption and believe it was just Fusionism via becoming one with the universe. Supernatural Willpower is fine.
Alright that’s all, won’t be commenting again.
 
Maverick_Zero_X said:
(Received permission to comment a single time here from @AKM sama)

From what I’ve read, Infinite Zamasu is the immaterial mind/thoughts/will of Zamasu, essentially a disembodied consciousness having survived after the destruction of his body. This mostly boils down to semantics, but it’s worth noting that awhile back a similar debate on what differentiates simple Incorporeality and true Abstract Existence came to the consensus that AE strictly refers to conceptual or metaphysical ideas that shape the universe and that consciousnesses do not count as AE. If these guidelines still hold up, Zamasu shouldn’t quantify for AE.

Side notes:
  • As pointed out the law and order statements are metaphorical
  • I disagree with the Absorption and believe it was just Fusionism via becoming one with the universe. Supernatural Willpower is fine.
Alright that’s all, won’t be commenting again.
Click to expand...
Their is a big difference between the example presented in the thread that you linked and zamasu's case
First of all all infinite zamasu is not just zamasu's will it's zamasu's will that became the universe an space time continuum and as stated on abstract existence page
Abstract entities recurrently strictly embody a concept, thought or idea up to a certain level of reality. For example, Eternity only embodies time on a local, universal scale. If the universe is destroyed, so is he.
So the will does indeed affect certain level of reality as it is the universe itself and the space time within it
And about the law stuff we have already disagreed with it so it's pointless to mention
 
Rez said:
Their is a big difference between the example presented in the thread that you linked and zamasu's case
First of all all infinite zamasu is not just zamasu's will it's zamasu's will that became the universe an space time continuum and as stated on abstract existence page
Abstract entities recurrently strictly embody a concept, thought or idea up to a certain level of reality. For example, Eternity only embodies time on a local, universal scale. If the universe is destroyed, so is he.
So the will does indeed affect certain level of reality as it is the universe itself and the space time within it
And about the law stuff we have already disagreed with it so it's pointless to mention
Click to expand...
Does anyone here has a counter argument towards this point?
 
ElixirBlue said:
Is Zamasu's (Original, unfused) thoughts/will/mind are the concepts of thoughts/will/mind for the entire Dragon Ball verse?
Click to expand...
No. And I think that is where the confusion comes from. Zamasu's body got destroyed and his disembodied thought/will/mind started becoming the universe. While the AE page means that you need to embody a general metaphysical concept like love, evil, hatred, greed, envy, etc. that also makes you immortal. These concepts are feelings/thoughts present universally in almost everyone.

If we are simply focusing on the word "thoughts" from the definition on the page, then this revision would make sense. But "thoughts" doesn't mean any thought or anyone's thought in that context from what I can tell.
 
AKM sama said:
No. And I think that is where the confusion comes from. Zamasu's body got destroyed and his disembodied thought/will/mind started becoming the universe. While the AE page means that you need to embody a general metaphysical concept like love, evil, hatred, greed, envy, etc. that also makes you immortal. These concepts are feelings/thoughts present universally in almost everyone.

If we are simply focusing on the word "thoughts" from the definition on the page, then this revision would make sense. But "thoughts" doesn't mean any thought or anyone's thought in that context from what I can tell.
Click to expand...
Actually immortality is only necessary for type 2 and about the thought part as it's stated on the page the said thought has to affect a certain level of reality which iz is doing as it literally became the universe and time and space within it
 
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Also iz was affecting present timeline too so it was actually affecting multiple space-time continuums
 
In this thread disembodied consciousnesses were decided by an abundance of staff to not qualify for AE (for not particularly well articulated reasons), so people should keep that in mind while arguing in this thread.
 
Tago238 said:
In this thread disembodied consciousnesses were decided by an abundance of staff to not qualify for AE (for not particularly well articulated reasons), so people should keep that in mind while arguing in this thread.
Click to expand...
Yes, and it seems like we forgot to perform the following update:

Antvasima said:
Personally, I think that the misunderstanding might come from that somebody wrote "Abstract Existence is the ability to embody an abstraction, such as a concept, thought, or an information" instead of "Abstract Existence is the ability to embody an abstraction, such as a concept or idea" in order to keep the ability easy to understand. That should probably be adjusted.
Click to expand...
 
As you’re describing it, this form of Zamasu is just a brain with no noodles. Again like I said before, when you embody something, that things has to be defined. Zamasu’s will is his interpretation of justice. The thing being his will, but the form/concept/idea being justice. He did not embody justice, wills, law or order in any way, shape or form, so he does not qualify.

Otherwise every being that loses their body but somehow remains as just their unbound consciousness qualifies for abstract existence, which literally makes no sense.

Type 1 simply means that if you have a character that is the concept ITSELF, such as hate, the only way to defeat it is to destroy hate as a concept.

Type 2 is stating they have a body that embodies the concept, but you still have to completely destroy the concept to destroy their body, though their avatar/vessel can still be harmed.

I’m glad the page needs to be edited, because I will say both definitions overlap in a way.
 
Rez said:
Actually immortality is only necessary for type 2 and about the thought part as it's stated on the page the said thought has to affect a certain level of reality which iz is doing as it literally became the universe and time and space within it
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Again iz is zamasu's will that became the universe it isn't just disembodied consciousnesses it's specifically zamasu's will and for the last time stop bringing the law stuff here
 
Regular members should permanently stop responding to this thread unless they have been given temporary permissions, or get their posts deleted, and possibly get bans from this discussion thread.

Anyway, are other staff members fine with if we adjust the wording in the page according to the quote that I provided above.
 
Antvasima said:
Regular members should permanently stop responding to this thread unless they have been given temporary permissions, or get their posts deleted, and possibly get bans from this discussion thread.

Anyway, are other staff members fine with if we adjust the wording in the page according to the quote that I provided above.
Click to expand...
Zamasu will still fit that new definition actually I have already provided a argument as to why above too
 
And because of the new definition characters from jujutsu kaisen should lose their abstract existence
 
If there is some pending changes to be made from that previous thread, perhaps that should be discussed and decided first, instead of arguing which characters would retain it or lose it.
 
AKM sama said:
If there is some pending changes to be made from that previous thread, perhaps that should be discussed and decided first, instead of arguing which characters would retain it or lose it.
Click to expand...
Agreed. We should preferably apply the intended change from there that I quoted above, in order to avoid further misunderstandings.
 
Orange and others: Please stop breaking our rules over and over. Thank you.
 
Rez said:
And because of the new definition characters from jujutsu kaisen should lose their abstract existence
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That is very possible, yes.
 
I'm sorry if I come here without permission, I asked for it but I didn't get an answer.

Anyways, I've come here to say something:

I disagree with the change for AE that are being proposed. Apart from the fact that some arguments in this thread imply that the mind and the brain are the same thing, which we know that they aren't.

Anyways, the standard that is being proposed here implies that Abstract Existence will be exclusive to conceptual entities. I don't even need to tell that this is wrong on many levels: according to their very definition, minds, thoughts, emotions etc... Are abstract things, their existence is abstract, thus they have, guess what? An Abstract Existence. The idea that only concepts are abstract is just mental gymnastics and pure head canon which literally goes against the definition of "thought" "Mind" "Emotion" and "abstract" itself. We're literally destroying the whole point of psychology and philosophy here.

So I disagree with this change, due to it being based on nonsense

Also, I think everyone should be able to express their opinion, and we had many people that agreed or disagreed in the previous thread that now can't comment cuz it's staff only.

This means that i also disagree with this thread being staff only
 
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Ottavio_Merluzzo said:
Also, I think everyone should be able to express their opinion, and we had many people that agreed or disagreed in the previous thread that now can't comment cuz it's staff only.

This means that i also disagree with this thread being staff only
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The entire point of this thread was to get our staff to comment in it, as the last one was an extremely spammy complete mess which our staff threw up their hands in the air about. Take that away and we are back where we started, and nothing will happen.

Other than that you make some good points. I would appreciate further staff input about it.
 
Antvasima said:
The entire point of this thread was to get our staff to comment in it, as the last one was an extremely spammy complete mess which our staff threw up their hands in the air about. Take that away and we are back where we started, and nothing will happen.

Other than that you make some good points. I would appreciate further staff input about it.
Click to expand...
I guess I can conced to the staff part, then. This will be my last message for now, until I get permission to participate
 
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